Steel Industry: Wales

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Wednesday 21st February 2024 Westminster Hall

[Dame Nia Griffith]

I absolutely agree.

The Minister has previously referred to steel as “infinitely recyclable”. It is indeed a marvellous material, which is so much easier to recover and recycle than many other materials. However, while the lifecycle of a tin can may be a matter of months, steel used in car manufacturing or construction will be tied up in those products for many years to come. I very much hope that we will see an increase in investment in infrastructure projects.

We on the Opposition side have plans to make the UK a clean energy superpower. We have so much potential in Wales, with the prospect of building floating offshore wind farms in the Celtic sea and using Port Talbot and Milford Haven to deliver and service those projects. It is just a pity that through either incompetence or stubbornness the Government have wasted a year failing to get any takers for floating offshore wind because of the unrealistically low strike price offered.

Increased renewables and increased use of electricity mean upgrading the national grid structure. We need investment in our railways, housing, hospitals and so on. Have the Minister or her Department made any assessment of how much steel the UK is likely to need in the coming decade? How much of that steel will be used for short-term products that will reach the scrap market fairly quickly, and how much will be locked in infrastructure that we hope will last for decades?

Returning to the broader picture, while I recognise the contribution that the electric arc furnace can make, it is bitterly disappointing that the Government plans look likely to leave the UK as the only country in the G20 without primary steelmaking. While countries across Europe have been working on greening the primary steelmaking process using technologies such as direct reduced iron and green hydrogen—indeed, Sweden will start production in 2025—the UK Government have not supported any such venture.

There is huge competition out there to woo investment in the green technologies of the future, whether it is the US Inflation Reduction Act or similar incentives in the EU. When we look at the €2.5 billion that Germany has invested in developing green primary steel, hon. Members will understand why we in the Labour party say that that is the sort of sum needed and why, if we were in government, we would look to invest a total of some £3 billion in the industry, rather than this Government’s £500 million.

The reasons why we now face the end of primary steelmaking in the UK must include the failure of the Government to respond adequately to the asks of the steel industry, which it has set out so clearly time and again. We have pointed out, time and again, how much cheaper energy costs are in countries such as France and Germany, while in the UK there have been specific negotiated packages.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (Ind)]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate and on her leadership on the issue. It seems that the only hope is to try to persuade Tata to delay some of the implementation of its plans until the change of Government, we all assume, by the end of the year.

As the hon. Lady mentioned, there is an alternative proposal from the Labour party for investment in the steel industry. Does she agree that there is a potential role for the Welsh Government to negotiate with Tata? As they sit on the transition board, they would have close relations with Tata executives to put forward the Labour plan, which would be ready to be implemented this time next year.

[Dame Nia Griffith]

Anyone who can have influence over Tata would be welcome to make those suggestions.

A moment ago, I was talking about specific negotiated packages that this UK Government have offered. Although there have been those packages, we can see why when steel and high-energy industries make decisions, they cannot rely on limping from package to another but need long-term security with low energy prices, requiring substantial measures from the Government such as massive investment in renewables and reform of the energy market. We in Llanelli look across at IJmuiden in the Netherlands, where Tata has a tin plant works similar to ours. However, in close proximity to IJmuiden, Tata will keep a blast furnace open and develop a direct reduced iron facility. This is the reality we are facing: greater investment for the future going elsewhere. The UK Government need to ask themselves why. I hope that in responding today the Minister will answer my specific questions about the challenges facing Tata’s tinplate works at Trostre, as well as the broader issues facing the steel industry across Wales.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 5th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

The powers as envisaged do not involve the complete block grant. The block grant—the total money available to Wales—will not change on day one. The only issue of contention is the fiscal framework; I have been making that point. The devolution of the fiscal power itself is not an issue in terms of making Wales poorer on day one.

There is also a technical reason why we should be fully devolving income tax powers. It is far more difficult to create a fair fiscal framework to accompany the partial devolution of income tax as opposed to full devolution. The result of this would be to enable future Welsh Governments to continue to avoid responsibility for their mistakes. In the interests of transparency, accountability and—critically—incentivisation, I hope even at this late stage that the UK Government will accept my new clause 3.

A key element of ensuring that the devolution of income tax is devolved successfully is the empowerment of the National Assembly to set income tax thresholds. New clause 2 aims to achieve this objective and I will press it to a vote on the second day of Committee, with the Chair’s permission. If we have time, I would also like to press new clause 3. We will discuss these new clauses on Monday.

New clause 2 is of vital importance as we embark on the journey of devolving income tax powers. The setting of thresholds is a key component of being able to use those powers based on domestic considerations. The Welsh economy in comparison to other parts of the UK is, regrettably, currently a lower-wage economy, a concern raised by Labour colleagues. New clause 2 would enable the National Assembly ultimately to determine the number of income tax thresholds and the levels at which they are set, including, critically, the basic rate. That freedom would enable the Finance Minister of the Welsh Government, whoever he or she may be, to set innovative income tax structures aimed at maximising revenues for the Welsh Exchequer to invest in Welsh public services, but also to encourage wealth creation and encourage investment.

It has been a consistent policy of the current Chancellor to increase personal allowances—in other words to increase the rate at which people begin paying income tax. Brexit may lead to a radical reversal of this policy in the coming months and years by the next Chancellor as revenues reduce. However, the key point is that as long as the ability to set personal allowances is reserved to London and Wales has a low-wage economy, decisions by Chancellors here could have a significant impact on the revenue available to invest in Welsh public services.

It really is all or nothing when it comes to the devolution of income tax and, as someone who supports making the Welsh Government fiscally responsible, I very much hope that the UK Government decide to support the former. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

[Nia Griffith]

I shall speak to several amendments, in particular amendment 11, which provides that income tax powers may not be devolved to the Welsh Assembly until a fiscal framework has been approved by both Houses of Parliament and the Welsh Assembly.

We have always said that a fiscal framework must ensure that Wales is not disadvantaged by taking on the devolution of some income tax powers. In the wake of the EU referendum result, it is all the more urgent that the Government develop a coherent and redistributory regional funding strategy not just for Wales, but for the whole of the UK.

The EU uses specific criteria for designating the areas that should receive structural funds by comparing the income of an area with the EU average. Areas in Wales such as the valleys and west Wales have benefited because they have a GDP that is less than 75% of the EU average, as has Cornwall, and many other areas have benefited because their GDP is between 75% and 90% of the EU average, including south Yorkshire and Merseyside. It is, broadly speaking, a needs-based system. As Members across the House will remember, Holtham recommended that funding for Wales should be based on a needs-based formula. However, a sophisticated formula would take time to develop.

It is simply unacceptable for Wales to accept the devolution of income tax without an order in both Houses and the consent of the Welsh Assembly, because those measures would give elected Members the chance to discuss the funding and the fiscal framework so that we do not see a cut to our funding and then get told to make up the rest by increasing income tax.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

The Secretary of State has told us that he will clarify that, so we will know whether that will be possible. I understand from what he has said today that it is very unlikely, because he said it was about people who can vote, not the system itself, but we await clarification from him to know where we are going.

The Bill is designed to strengthen and streamline the current devolution settlement. For example, clause 18 allows the Assembly to implement European Union legislation directly where it relates to devolved matters. That is a sensible development, and one that I sincerely hope does not become redundant by the time the Bill goes into Committee after the referendum recess.

The biggest structural change in the Bill is the move to a reserved powers model, as recommended by the Silk commission. As Silk said, that should allow the Assembly to legislate

“with greater confidence and with greater regard to the purpose of the legislation, rather than being constrained by uncertainty”.

That change will bring greater clarity to our devolution settlement and, if the Government get the Bill right, it should result in fewer cases being taken to the Supreme Court. Too much public money has been spent on such manoeuvres.

I welcome the important statement on the permanence of the Assembly and of Welsh government in clause 1, and the inclusion of the Sewel convention that the UK Parliament will seek consent from the Assembly before legislating on devolved subjects. This recognises that just 17 years since the process of devolution began, the Assembly has become a fundamental part of our constitutional landscape. In 2011 the Welsh people voted for the Assembly to have full law-making powers, an important sign of confidence in the institution. Together with this Parliament, the Assembly should now be recognised as one of two significant legislatures that represent the people of Wales.

It was the Assembly’s ability to pass laws in devolved areas that the draft Bill put at risk in the most unnecessary and short-sighted way. It is a simple fact that as a law-making body, the Assembly must have the ability to change the law, but the draft Bill would have required it to pass a number of necessity tests before being able to amend the civil or criminal law. In the words of David Melding, the Conservative Chair of the Assembly’s Constitution Committee, these tests would have created

“an atmosphere of profound uncertainty”.

He went on to say:

“Taken to extremes, the very exercise of the legislative function could be compromised.”

I am pleased that the Government have seen sense and removed these tests so that the Assembly can amend the law when it needs to, but there are other tests that I will return to later.

The removal of the necessity tests means that a distinct body of Welsh law will continue to grow over time, a fact that poses a challenge to the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales. We understand that the justice impact assessments outlined in clause 10 are intended to address this point, but a more long-term solution may need to be found at some point in the future. We trust that the working group consisting of the Ministry of Justice, the Lord Chief Justice and the Welsh Government will keep this issue under review.

On the areas of the Bill that require more work, I want to deal with the reservations, the necessity tests, and the devolution of income tax. It was a common theme in the response to the draft Bill that the list of reservations was far too long. Even the Secretary of State’s predecessor expressed surprise at the number of reservations—an unusual admission, given that it was his Bill. This rather suggested that there was a lack of a clear rationale for the compilation of that list. I note that the list of reservations in this Bill is very slightly shorter but it still runs to 34 pages, and the justification for reserving some subjects is far from clear.

The root of the problem with the reservations in the draft Bill was that the Wales Office allowed Whitehall to have free rein in deciding which areas it was willing to devolve, rather than adopting the principled process that the Silk commission recommended. In its report on the draft Bill, the Welsh Affairs Committee said that Whitehall Departments should be given

“clear guidance about the questions they should ask themselves before deciding whether or not to reserve a power”,

and that this guidance

“must be published prior to the publication of the Bill, so that the final list of reservations can be assessed against the criteria given.”

It is regrettable that no such fresh guidance has been published, which would allow us to decide whether the list of reservations has been drafted with clear criteria in mind.

In response to the Select Committee’s report, the Secretary of State said:

“The explanatory notes that accompany the Bill provide a clear rationale for each reservation included in the list.”

I am afraid that this is not the case. The justifications offered in the explanatory notes are patchy at best. Most just state what is reserved, without explaining why. We will consider the list in more detail as the Bill proceeds, but the Secretary of State must be ready to justify each of the reservations and to present a rational basis for the final list.

It is already clear that some of the reservations are unjustified. The decision to create a special category of reserved trust ports is one example. This means in practice that control of every Welsh port except Milford Haven will be devolved to the Assembly. The Government have presented no sensible justification for this, or for the turnover requirement in clause 31, based on the Ports Act 1991. As the Bill stands, ports that meet an annual turnover requirement of £14.3 million or more remain under the control of the UK Government, while powers over those with a smaller turnover would be transferred to Welsh Ministers. This seems to create a perverse incentive, because if the Welsh Government foster economic development in smaller ports, which significantly increase their turnover as a consequence, the Welsh Government could find that they lose control over those ports.

In the absence of an explanation, we can only assume that the Government want to keep control of the most profitable ports, with a view possibly to privatising them in future, as indeed the Government considered doing in 2011. Strange, is it not, that this annual turnover is the same threshold above which ports can be privatised under the 1991 Act? Previous privatisation proposals have raised serious concerns about asset-stripping by speculators and the fragmentation of ports, and these dangers would be just as real in the case of Milford Haven.

On the necessity tests, I am pleased that the most problematic of these, relating to civil and criminal law, have been removed from the Bill. This has made the Bill markedly clearer and more workable than its predecessor. However, two necessity tests remain in clause 3 and in paragraph 1 of new schedule 7B. As many witnesses noted during the Welsh Affairs Committee’s inquiry into the draft Bill, the problem with these tests is the uncertainty surrounding the word “necessity”. A representative from the Law Society described it as certainly not a term that is as well understood by lawyers as a concept, which raises the potential of legislation being challenged not just in the Supreme Court, but in the course of other civil and criminal proceedings. Given these very real concerns, would it not be preferable to ditch the necessity tests entirely and retain the wording in the Government of Wales Act 2006, which avoids invoking this legally difficult concept?

On the ministerial consents, we welcome the simplified system proposed in the Bill, but the Government could go further. The Welsh Affairs Committee has recommended introducing a 60-day time limit for consent to be given or refused. A change to this effect would give greater confidence and I urge the Government to consider adopting it in law.

Finally, on income tax, the current situation is that the Welsh people would have to support the devolution of income tax in a referendum before the powers could be transferred to the Assembly. This Bill removes that requirement, meaning that the Secretary of State could devolve income tax powers via an Order in Council, without the Assembly even having to agree to it. That cannot be right. Allowing the Assembly to levy taxes is a very significant constitutional development, and one which should not take place without a clear democratic decision, so we are asking the Secretary of State to consider amending the Bill to require the Assembly to agree to the devolution of tax powers before they are devolved.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The shadow Secretary of State for Wales will be aware of the comments of the shadow Secretary of State for Scotland, who said on the BBC on 9 November 2015, on the Scotland Bill, which gave full income tax powers to Scotland:

“When this Bill becomes law, it will present the Scottish Parliament with the opportunity to make Scotland the fairest nation on earth.”

I assume that that would be an objective for the hon. Lady and her party. Why, therefore, is she dithering about giving her colleagues in the Assembly the same powers as Scotland to achieve that objective?

[Nia Griffith]

It comes as no surprise that an intervention from the hon. Gentleman focuses on his party’s determination to see Wales become an independent state, regardless of the economic consequences. As I have just explained, it is crucial to give the Assembly the opportunity to negotiate a proper, fair fiscal framework with a “no detriment” principle before it accepts responsibility for income tax. That opportunity is extremely important.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Nia Griffith]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen.

The draft Wales Bill has understandably led to lively debate since it was published in October. I asked the Secretary of State to convene this Committee so that Members could be part of that debate, and to scrutinise the draft Bill before a new version is presented to the House. The draft Bill is the end product of some five years of work including the Silk Commission, the St David’s day process, and the Government’s White Paper. We expected a draft Bill that was worthy of the years of work that led up to it—a landmark constitutional moment giving more powers to Wales. Instead, we have a shambles of a draft Bill that has been criticised by academics, trade unions, lawyers, the Assembly’s Presiding Officer, the Church in Wales, the Equality and Human Rights Commission, the Welsh Language Society and every party in the Assembly, including the Welsh Conservatives. In fact, when the Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee launched its inquiry on the draft Bill, it was left in the unprecedented situation where practically no one supported it.

A new report by University College London and the Wales Governance Centre describes the draft Bill as

“constricting, clunky, inequitable and constitutionally short-sighted.”

In plain English, it is junk. The Secretary of State should be ashamed that he has presented such a weak and unworkable draft Bill because the people of Wales deserve better.

Labour Members support a move to a reserved powers model, which Silk recommended, and we support the new powers proposed in the Bill on energy, transport and the Assembly’s own affairs. Labour set up the Assembly and gave it greater powers through the Government of Wales Act 2006 and the 2011 referendum. We support the Assembly’s having more powers, and that is exactly why we will not support this Bill unless it is radically amended.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I congratulate the hon. Lady on her appointment as shadow Secretary of State. I am absolutely delighted by that appointment, but can she explain why, as the Secretary of State said, the biggest roadblock during the St David’s day process was the Labour party? I understand that she was not in those negotiations, but is she entirely happy with the position taken by her predecessor?

[Nia Griffith]

Today’s subject is the Bill before us, and we want a Bill that actually works, so that is what we need to scrutinise now; that is what we need to be looking at.

Just last year, the Secretary of State said:

“I want to establish a clear devolution settlement for Wales which stands the test of time.”—[Official Report, 27 February 2015; Vol. 593, c. 35WS.]

Elsewhere, he referred to

“a clear, robust and lasting devolution settlement”.

We have only to take one look at this Bill and it is plain that he has completely failed to do that. The Bill as drafted is not clear. It does not meet the Secretary of State’s stated aims. Those are not just my words; they are also those of the Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, chaired, incidentally, by a Conservative Assembly Member. Its inquiry heard

“grave concerns about the complexity of the draft Bill”

from the

“overwhelming majority of…consultees and witnesses”.

It heard

“a clear, unanimous voice from legal experts and practitioners that the complexities of this Bill will lead to references to the Supreme Court.”

This Government have been particularly trigger happy in taking the Assembly to court ever since it has had primary law-making powers. Those cases cost the taxpayer tens of thousands of pounds and lead to long delays before the Assembly’s laws come into force.

Tax Avoidance

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Nobody likes paying tax, but we all want our services, such as the NHS, to be there when we need them. Above all, we want fairness. We have an expectation that we should all pay our taxes, wherever we are. We want the same standards to be applied to all. It is damaging for honest businesses to face competition from corporations that are not paying the tax that they owe. Horrifying revelations about HSBC have been made this week. Instead of its clients being encouraged to pay the tax that they owed, they were being issued with credit cards to enable them to spend the money without it being identified. That is utterly shameful behaviour on the part of the individuals and the banks, and how many more are there like them?

Cheating the Inland Revenue is never acceptable, but it is particularly galling when councillors up and down the country are agonising over how to manage their severely reduced budgets, and having to decide whether to cut help for special needs children or help for the elderly, for example. My own indignation at the offshoring of the public money being used to pay private finance initiative debts led me to introduce a private Member’s Bill on the issue. In it, I tried to clamp down on that activity so that our money would not go offshore through those contracts. Furthermore, as my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow Central (Anas Sarwar) said, the amount of money that is lost to developing countries through companies offshoring accounts and therefore not paying their tax in those countries is three times the global aid budget.

I am very concerned by the Government’s record to date. The amount of tax that is owed and has not been collected has risen from £31 billion to £34 billion in the past three years. The Government were told about HSBC back in 2010, but nearly five years later only one of the 1,100 people involved in the tax irregularities has been prosecuted. The Prime Minister promised that he would lead on transparency in tax havens, but to date not one overseas territory or Crown dependency has produced a publicly accessible central register. The Government’s Swiss tax deal has raised less than a third of what the Chancellor said it would raise. In the 2012 autumn statement, he said that it would raise £3.12 billion, but the latest HMRC figures show that it has raised only £873 million.

On the record, Labour has been praised in the Financial Times for our measures against tax avoidance. During the 13 years of the Labour Government, we produced 10 times the income that the four years of this coalition Government have produced. We have a good record on this, but we can never be complacent. That is why we are making it clear that we would do a lot more to tackle tax avoidance. We would make tax avoidance and tax evasion a priority.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Opposition motion does not mention the need adequately to resource HMRC. Could that be because, as George Monbiot said in 2010, HMRC was “hacked to bits” under the previous UK Labour Government?

[Nia Griffith]

We believe it is important to resource HMRC properly, and we would like to see it much better resourced than it is at present. We have seen cuts recently that appear to involve getting rid of very skilled people and putting much less skilled people in their place. We would certainly want to reverse that situation.

The Minister mentioned people being caught up in the general anti-abuse rule. However, we will not get anywhere if we do not have proper penalties to impose on such people. We would put proper penalties in place to ensure that any new ideas that people might dream up could be dealt with effectively. We also want to close the loopholes that allow hedge funds to try to avoid stamp duty, and those that let companies move profits out of the UK to avoid corporation tax.

Also, very importantly, we would scrap the Government’s shares for rights scheme. It amounts to immoral blackmail to ask workers to give up hard-won fundamental rights, and it is proving expensive because of the amount of HMRC inspectors’ time required to deal with the scheme. Paul Johnson of the Institute for Fiscal Studies has said of the shares for rights scheme that the

“government is trumpeting a new tax policy that looks like it will foster a whole new avoidance industry. Its own fiscal watchdog seems to suggest that the policy could cost a staggering £1 billion a year, and that a large portion of that could arise from ‘tax planning’”.

I hope we will hear a commitment from the Minister to scrap the scheme. I also hope that the Government parties will take seriously our suggestions and include them in their manifestos, because we need to take a really good joint approach to these matters. I do not believe that the Government have carried on the work that we successfully set up. Their record is poor, and we need to see them putting in a great deal more effort to crack down on tax avoidance.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Wednesday 10th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I am pleased to put on record Labour’s support for the Lords amendments to clause 13 and schedule 1, which will enable the Welsh Government to set a voting age of 16 in a future referendum on income tax powers. Labour believes that the National Assembly for Wales should have responsibility for its own electoral arrangements. Lords amendment 14 will insert a new subsection (1A) into clause 13 to provide that if the First Minister or a Welsh Minister moves a resolution in the Assembly under clause 13(1)(a) requesting that an order be made under clause 12 to cause an income tax referendum to be held in Wales, that resolution must state whether the voting age at such a referendum is to be 16 or 18.

I have long been a supporter of votes at 16, on which Labour Members have provided a strong lead. I pay tribute particularly to Julie Morgan, a former MP and now Assembly Member for Cardiff North, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson) for their campaigning on the issue. We saw the success of allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the Scottish independence referendum. Following the Smith commission, responsibility for electoral matters is on the cards to be devolved to Scotland. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), the leader of the Labour party, has urged the UK Government to ensure that that happens in time for the 2016 elections to the Scottish Parliament. Control over electoral arrangements should likewise be devolved to Wales and Northern Ireland.

The Lords amendments reflect our belief that electoral arrangements should be devolved to Wales and our commitment to extending the franchise for all elections to 16 and 17-year-olds. Furthermore, this week my right hon. Friend made it absolutely clear that a future Labour Government would legislate to lower the voting age to 16, and it would be interesting to hear the Minister’s position on that issue. We would also legislate to devolve electoral arrangements to the Welsh Assembly.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Plaid Cymru tabled amendments similar to those that the hon. Lady mentions during the Bill’s passage through this House, but I do not recall Labour supporting us. Has there been a sea change in Labour party policy since then?

[Nia Griffith]

I have made it clear what our policies are.

With the advent of individual voter registration and the worry that many people, including many young voters, will fail to register under the new rules, which was a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane), lowering the voting—

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed. Perhaps I will move on then. The hon. Gentleman also said that he wanted road bridges to be built with money raised from the Severn road bridge; again, we wonder quite where he is going with that one.

Returning to the Bill, the hon. Gentleman raised valid points about the devolution of stamp duty and land being divided, and referred to confusion between people with certain postcodes whereby, for example, somebody with a Newport postcode ends up, in effect, being put in Wales when in fact they are in England. He also mentioned the complexities of payroll for small businesses in the event of devolution of income tax. I think he is really saying that there needs to be a very thorough impact assessment on all these issues, and we would certainly call for that.

The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) emphasised the benefits of holding elections on separate days to avoid confusion, although not all Members agreed. He reiterated his support for the reserved powers model of devolution whereby the assumption should be that the National Assembly for Wales has powers in the devolved areas of responsibility unless otherwise specified.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) said that it is difficult to find anybody in his patch who is interested in more devolution, so perhaps he spends more time in South Pembrokeshire than in west Carmarthenshire. He agreed with the hon. Member for Monmouth about devolution creep. He also noted his disagreement with the academics who are calling for more Assembly Members.

The hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) found himself agreeing with my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant)—that must be a first—on the idea that if anyone changes the term of a Government, it is always to increase it rather than decrease it, and he was sceptical about the need for an increase to five years.

The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams), speaking on behalf of Plaid Cymru, expressed severe disappointment that the Bill did not fully reflect the Silk commission recommendations. He described the thorough scrutiny of the draft Bill by the Welsh Affairs Committee and explained the potential difficulties in enthusing the electorate about a referendum on tax. He mentioned the Barnett formula and the need for funding reform and told us that Plaid Cymru would table an amendment to allow for devolution of income tax without a referendum.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) reminded us that he is a strong supporter of localism and firmly believes that decisions made should be linked with any money raised. He wants to see a positive impact in terms of working together for a referendum. He compared the very thorough scrutiny of the draft Bill with the complete lack of scrutiny of the transparency of lobbying Bill before it came to this House.

My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Mrs James) talked about borrowing and expressed concern about the unfairness to Wales in contrast with Scotland, where it is calculated as 10% of capital budget rather than being contingent on the devolution of taxes.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Neath (Mr Hain) spoke very eloquently about banning dual candidacy, quoting Lord Richard’s evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee. He reminded the House of the very considerable, bare-faced abuse of the list system and quoted the leaked memorandum from Leanne Wood, the leader of Plaid Cymru, in which she gives explicit instructions to her party’s list Assembly Members to direct their time and resources—paid for by the taxpayer, Mr Deputy Speaker—to Plaid Cymru’s target seats. He also emphasised the need for shared risk on taxation and making sure that Wales does not in any way miss out if income tax powers are devolved.

My hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) expressed disappointment that the Bill falls short of fully reflecting what was in the Silk commission report. He also gave contemporary examples of how the list system is being abused, with list Members neglecting much of their area in order to focus almost exclusively on one part of it, with a view to standing for that constituency—exactly following the advice of the Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood, to ignore constituents’ problems and focus solely on what will bring electoral advantage.

My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) reminded us that people have a lot of concerns, and do not have only constitutional issues on their minds. Again, he was concerned about the large number of people living within easy commuting distance of the border and the effects that any change in tax rates could have on either side of the border. He called for a thorough impact assessment.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), who is a fervent devolutionist but is not for devolution as a route to independence, said it was vital to work with people and to have a referendum on all important decisions.

My hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) referred to the current dispute about railway funding, saying that it was a good example of his worries that weasel words might mean giving with one hand but taking away with the other. He also said that we should look carefully at what exactly the intentions behind the Bill are.

I turn now to some of the more mundane issues dealt with by the Bill. We very much welcome the devolution of the land taxes—stamp duty and landfill tax. They will provide an independent income stream against which the Welsh Government can borrow. We hope that the devolution of those taxes can take place as soon as possible and that the process will not be subject to any unnecessary delays. We understand the logic of the time scale but we urge that it should not be allowed to slip.

We welcome the borrowing powers that the Bill will legislate for, not least because this Tory-led Government have cut the Welsh budget by 10% over the course of this Parliament and have reduced the Welsh Government’s capital budget by nearly a third. Borrowing powers will enable the Welsh Government to invest in vital infrastructure projects to help boost economic development.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Labour party continually attack the UK Government—and rightly so—for their huge cuts to capital expenditure in Wales, but the Government are following the exact budget lines set by the previous Chancellor of the Exchequer before the 2010 election. The Labour party set a path to cut capital budgets in Wales by 40%. That is what the UK Government have delivered.

[Nia Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman knows full well that the Opposition have very different priorities from the Government in the way that we deal with budgets and decide what our priorities are. Quite frankly, I think that he needs to do a bit more homework before he begins to make these suggestions.

I turn now to income tax. The Opposition do not accept that there is no accountability without the devolution of income tax. The National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government are accountable through elections, and Welsh Ministers are subject to the usual scrutiny procedures. Let us look at councils: more of a council’s budget comes through the block grant than from council tax, but nobody says that councils cannot borrow and that council borrowing has to be contingent on further devolution of some income tax powers.

None the less, we accept that the Welsh Government are slightly anomalous in not having the power to raise revenue. The devolution of a number of minor taxes will rectify that anomaly. It should be noted that in their evidence to the Silk commission the Welsh Labour Government did not actually seek the power to vary income tax. However, since the publication of the Silk commission report we have said that we support the recommendation to give Wales the power partially to vary income tax, contingent on a triple lock. That consists of fair funding, agreed by the Welsh and UK Governments; the power being subject to a referendum; and the power being in the long-term interests of Wales—that is to say that it should tested during a period of assignment.

We would like the Secretary of State to give further details on the period of assignment and to provide reassurances about the ability of HMRC to monitor a Welsh rate of income tax. We believe that further examination is needed of the impact of tax competition arising from different rates of income tax on either side of the border. We want to ensure that that looks at the behavioural aspects of what might happen if income tax rates vary on either side of the border.

Turning to the constitutional issues, we believe that the question of five-year terms is a matter for the Assembly. It may not be practical to table an amendment to that effect, but we want to put on record our belief that it should be something for the Assembly to decide.

On double-jobbing, we are very clear that we do not think that an individual should be an MP and an AM at the same time. It is not practical or fair to the electorate and we certainly support the ban in the Bill.

A number of my hon. Friends have referred to dual candidacy and I want to focus on one aspect of it, namely that the impact assessment notes that more people find it confusing and dislike it than those who favour it, and that smaller parties need the system because they are struggling to find candidates. It is pathetic that some of the smaller parties are finding it difficult to find candidates of the right quality. They should be asking themselves why it is that they cannot find anyone. Is the Liberal Democrats’ problem that no young person wants to knock on doors and explain why the Liberal Democrats propped up the Tories to put up student fees to £9,000 in England while in Wales the Labour Welsh Government pegged fees at £3,500? I cannot see any young person wanting to stand for the Lib Dems. Will young people want to stand for Plaid Cymru when they are worried that they might be told, “If you haven’t got two parents who were born in Wales, you can’t represent Wales”?

[Nia Griffith]

Well, that is the sort of thing we have heard Plaid Cymru say about whether the captain of the Welsh rugby team should be captain or not. [Interruption.] Plaid Cymru Members can shout and protest all they like, but that is what they said only three weeks ago.

[Jonathan Edwards]

A smear!

Fairness and Inequality

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 11th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman explain how, with a tax take from people living in Wales being some £9 billion short of tax expenditure, an independent Wales would put right that hole in the economy?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I have been totally clear in my comments about the constitutional journey of my country: we are not in a position to fight for independence at this very moment, which is why Wales needs the economic powers to build up its economy to be in a position to do so. We are in a different situation to Scotland. We will not get anywhere if we continue with the policies of the Labour party, which aims to keep economic control in London and to keep our communities impoverished. It is in its vested interest to do so, which is why it is opposed to all the measures being put forward by the Silk commission.

--- Later in debate ---

[Nia Griffith]

We are saying now that we want to tackle the reasons why people are on such poverty wages. If we try to reduce the price of fuel, that helps people with the amount of money they have in their pocket. If we look at the amount that they earn, that helps them to get the right amount of money in their pocket without it having to be topped up so much by the tax system. There are ways forward and we have to tackle these issues. It would be very welcome if this Government were prepared to look a bit more at ways of doing so.

We will also tackle zero-hours contracts. In September, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition announced Labour’s plans to tackle zero-hours contracts where they exploit people. This would be achieved by banning employers from insisting that zero-hours workers be available even when there is no guarantee of any work, by stopping zero-hours contracts that require workers to work exclusively for one business, and by ending the misuse of zero-hours contracts where employees are, in practice, working regular hours over a sustained period.

[Jonathan Edwards]

As the hon. Lady is aware, Carmarthenshire county council—run, of course, by the Labour party—makes extensive use of zero-hours contracts across its portfolio of employment. Will she join me in strongly condemning its leadership for the manner in which it uses zero-hours contracts to exploit its workers?

[Nia Griffith]

As the hon. Gentleman points out, there is still a long way to go. There are still many things that we all need to put right. Carmarthenshire county council has decided that over the next two years the 1% pay increase should be weighted towards those on the lowest pay to try to bring them up to the living wage, thus penalising the people at the top, because that is a way of bringing in a measure of equality.

Yes, of course there is still a lot to do. We began with the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act and the agency workers directive, but there is still a lot more to be done on the whole issue of zero-hours contracts, including using procurement, in the same way as the Welsh Government, to tackle blacklisting. When someone is blacklisted—they can no longer get employment in particular industries because their name has been passed round from employer to employer—it can be a terrible blight for a family. As in Wales, through the power of procurement we will say that we do not want public bodies to use contractors that are blacklisting people. That will be a powerful provision to raise the living standards of all those being paid from the public purse, whether by councils directly or by contractors.

People are able to make choices and there are mitigating factors and different ways of tackling poverty. In Wales, for example, by 2015 the Welsh Government will have doubled the number of children and families benefiting from Flying Start, whereas in England 500 Sure Start centres have closed. The Jobs Growth Wales programme is ahead of target in enabling 4,000 young people a year to take on a job, mostly in the private sector. It has a very high success rate, with some 80% being offered permanent jobs at the end of their stay. The Welsh Government have also increased the funding of the pupil deprivation grant, giving it a £35 million boost to help those from the least well-off homes to achieve their potential.

Equality is also about making those with the broadest shoulders take the biggest load. That is why we introduced the 50p tax rate, and we would reintroduce it for those earning more than £150,000 per annum. It has now emerged, from figures produced by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, that almost £10 billion more was raised by the 50p tax rate during the three years it was in place than was originally estimated by the Government in 2012. The shadow Chancellor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls), has confirmed our support for a mansion tax. We have used the tool of a bankers’ bonus tax in the past and would do so again in order to provide thousands of job opportunities for young people. We would roll out a house-building programme of 200,000 houses a year to help bring down the price of housing. Labour’s Companies Act 2006 includes provisions the Government have refused to implement that would enable pensioners and investors to see how pension fund managers vote on remuneration packages, which would bring transparency to what is happening at the very top of the pay scales.

As prices continue to rise faster than wages, people are unable to cope with the expenses they face at the end of the month, which is making them ever more prey to exploitation by payday loan companies charging exorbitant interest rates and costs. That is why we have called for the Financial Conduct Authority to use its powers to implement, as soon as possible, a total cost cap on the amount that payday lenders can charge, in order to protect borrowers and ensure that Britain has a consumer credit market that works for everyone. Under pressure from Labour and other campaigners, such as Sharkstoppers and Debtbusters, the Government have now agreed to grant the newly created FCA the power to cap the total cost of credit through the Financial Services Act 2012 and to compel it to use that power through the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013.

As well as capping interest rates, we need to find alternative sources of loans to help people in difficult circumstances and to put further pressure on the payday loan companies and squeeze them out of the market. With some lenders making profits of as much as £1 million a week, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition has called for a levy on such profits in order to raise capital for alternative and affordable sources of credit such as the credit unions. That would give an additional £13 million to credit unions to offer more financial support to people who are in need of loans.

Energy Transmission Infrastructure (Carmarthenshire)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 19th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. In areas of outstanding natural beauty, cables will have to go underground, but the Tywi valley, although extremely beautiful, is not designated as such and is therefore exempt, so that point is vital.

Carmarthenshire is known as the garden of Wales for good reason, with the Tywi valley hosting the National Botanic Garden of Wales and Aberglasney gardens, both of which are Welsh national treasures. During the public meetings I held on the issue, it was clear that only undergrounding the cables would be acceptable to those who attended.

That is the position of Carmarthenshire county council, which unanimously supported a Plaid Cymru motion:

“That Carmarthenshire County Council finds it totally unacceptable that the proposed Brechfa Forest wind farm(s) National Grid connection should be made via an overhead line supported by wooden pylons. As the Council itself has no statutory power in this matter, we ask the UK Energy Secretary to ensure that the connection cable is laid underground for its entire length”.

There is a clear precedent for undergrounding in Carmarthenshire. The Llyn Brianne hydroelectricity scheme in the north-east of my constituency was connected to the national grid via 20 miles of undergrounding in 1996.

In a one-sentence reply, the developers have stated that the cost of undergrounding is prohibitive. In this case, however, that is simply not good enough. In an answer to a parliamentary question, the Minister told me:

“In 2011, National Grid commissioned an independent study to give more clarity on the practicality, whole life costs and impacts of undergrounding and subsea cabling as alternatives to overhead lines. The Electricity Transmission Costing Study, prepared by technical experts and overseen and endorsed by the Institution of Engineering and Technology was published in January 2012… It contains estimated cost ranges for overhead lines and underground technologies.”—[Official Report, 8 July 2013; Vol. 566, c. 66W.]

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if undergrounding can be done in Powys, it can surely be done in Carmarthenshire? It could be done.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Lady makes a valid point. In Powys, the energy or transmission companies involved have decided to underground parts of the route. As the project is undertaken, I will certainly be making the case that the Tywi valley is protected in a similar manner to those areas of Powys.

That report tells us that cost ratios are volatile and that no single cost ratio comparing overhead line costs with those of another technology, such as undergrounding, adequately conveys the costs of the different technologies on a given project. The use of financial cost comparisons, rather than cost ratios, is thus recommended when making investment decisions.

However, Western Power Distribution, which has been tasked with connecting the wind farms with the national grid, has published only a simple financial cost comparison for the proposed project. It has not published any information on the lifetime costs of the project taking into consideration the installation, repairs and maintenance of the electricity cables and pylons. In its one-page underground survey summary—the only piece of information on undergrounding that has been published—Western Power Distribution states that the costs of underground cables would be £986,000 per kilometre, compared with £100,000 per kilometre for overground cables. I am sure that the Minister will share my constituents’ disappointment at not being provided with a full report that outlines a full consideration of the lifetime costs of the project for both overhead cables on pylons and undergrounding.

The National Grid, to which the electricity will be fed, launched a report in 2012 on its approach to the design and routeing of new electricity transmission lines, which outlines some of the principles that it will apply to its plans. I will quote from it because it applies directly to the communities that the proposed wooden pylons will affect:

“We also have a duty to ‘consider the desirability of preserving amenity’ when undertaking projects which includes impacts on communities, landscape and visual amenity, cultural heritage and ecological resources. To satisfy this duty, we seek to avoid areas which are nationally or internationally designated for their landscape, wildlife or cultural significance, such as National Parks.

We recognise, however, that not all sites that are valued by, and important for, the wellbeing of local communities are included in designated areas. Our approach therefore ensures that we consider all of the potential economic, environmental and social impacts of proposed projects, not just those relating to designated sites.”

National Grid is seemingly taking an holistic approach, but the regulator, Ofgem, and the regional distribution companies appear to be operating on the basis of the cheapest up-front cost.

I will briefly mention other concerns that have been raised with me. Some have raised concerns over the health of the people who live near the overground poles. Others have expressed concern about the impact on wildlife and protected species. Many have expressed the concern that as the generating capacity is developed within the Brechfa forest, the wooden poles will have to be upgraded to metal pylons like those that service the Mynydd y Betws strategic wind farm in the south of my constituency. Some of my constituents are concerned about what will happen to the poles after the 25-year life expectancy of the generating development in the Brechfa forest. Many landowners were extremely angry that the developers had accessed their land without permission. That has caused grave concern to many elderly constituents of mine. There should be strict access protocols and I hope that the Minister will impress that on Western Power Distribution.

I will conclude by quoting the greatest of Welshmen, D. J. Williams, whose love for his milltir sgwâr, the square mile of north Carmarthenshire, was unrivalled and was the basis of his patriotism:

“Os gellir dweud fod hawl ddwyfol i unrhyw beth ar y ddaear, yna gyda’r Cymry y mae’r hawl i dir Cymru, nid gydag unrhyw berson estron, pwy bynnag ydyw ef.”

That was translated by the great Welsh poet, Waldo Williams, as:

“It may be said that there is a divine right to anything on earth, the right over the land of Wales belongs to the Welsh nation, and not to any alien, whoever he be.”

As the UK Government-sponsored Silk commission considers the second part of its work into further powers for Wales, opinion polling clearly shows that the people of Wales want full control over their natural resources and the exploitation of those resources. I hope that the Minister is mindful of the sentiments that I have expressed this evening when he considers the application in due course. I am more than happy again to extend my invitation to him to visit my constituency. I am sure that he would be awestruck by the beauty of the Tywi valley and I hope that he would gain an appreciation of why preserving that purity is so important to the people of my county.

Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 10th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

My right hon. Friend made that point extremely well. Many people’s first political engagement may come about when they join a campaign on an issue that they feel strongly about, and to curtail that would discourage participation when we all recognise that the real challenge today is to get more participation and enable more people to have a voice in our society.

Another issue that will hit people very hard is the reduction of the financial limit in Wales. That will be £2,000, and there will be a requirement to declare many additional costs, such as staffing costs.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the hon. Lady share my concern that, according to my reading of the Bill, the reduction in expenditure in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is greater in proportional terms than the reduction in expenditure in England? Would she share her thoughts? Why does she think that the UK Government have brought this iniquitous proposal forward?

[Nia Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. Of course, it makes it especially difficult when organisations are trying to influence policy both in the devolved Administrations and in the UK Government. So many areas overlap now. It can be big things such as climate change, which was mentioned earlier; it can be things like fuel poverty or it can be much smaller things, which are partly devolved, partly not. A lot of work is done by such groups in influencing both the devolved Administrations and more widely.

Many of these organisations also operate internationally and have international deadlines. I refer to the millennium development goals, the UN convention on the rights of the child and so on. Those organisations participate in worldwide activities whose timetable may fall within the wrong time in an election cycle and it may be more difficult for them to put forward their point of view. Some of them have even talked about making sure that some of their policies are dealt with in their overseas offices so that they are not caught by the Bill. There are a huge number of complications.

The other issue that particularly affects organisations operating in Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland is that they are often in coalition with many other groups, some of which operate on a UK-wide basis and some of which operate only in Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland. Accounting presents yet more complications, and they look with horror at the accounting detail that the Bill will require of them, which they will have to finance by paying someone to sort it out.

Fuel Poverty (Wales)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 19th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Thank you very much, Mrs Riordan. The figures for Wales on fuel poverty are very stark indeed because more than a quarter of all households are affected, with a much higher figure in some areas. The housing stock in many areas is fairly old, and we also have a prevalence of coal fires. If people have a coal fire, they need an air flow to keep it going, and consequently we have had many poorly insulated properties. The Welsh Government are doing a good job of trying to remedy the situation through the Arbed and Nest programmes, but the legacy remains, and some homes are very hard to heat and to make energy-efficient.

We also have the major problem that a number of homes are not on mains gas, and they are not only isolated farmhouses, but whole villages. That is often the case because those villages were mining areas in which coal was the predominant fuel, meaning that gas was not seen as a priority.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Lady and I represent the area that contains the anthracite coal field, where the gas network was vehemently opposed. We are all dependent on solid fuels in my village of Penygroes, for instance, and throughout the Amman and Gwendraeth valleys, which she represents. Does she agree that it would be really helpful if payment of the winter fuel allowance was brought forward for those who are reliant on oil, gas bottles or coal so that they would be able to buy those fuels in the summer, when they are cheaper?

[Nia Griffith]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. The November payment is made at exactly the time when solid fuel is at its most expensive, and it would be much better if people had the money earlier so that they could then spend it in preparation for the winter.

There is a particular problem for homes that are not on mains gas, because that limits people’s choice of fuel. They might use solid fuel, more electricity, or bottled gas for cooking. More recently, of course, people have been using liquefied petroleum gas, but some areas face a problem because one supplier of LPG gas has a monopoly. I corresponded with Chris Huhne about that matter when he was Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, so I hope that the Minister will be able to continue work to examine LPG competition, particularly when people are trapped into continuing with the same supplier because a whole estate is supplied by one supplier, which creates a difficult situation.

The major problem involving some of the insulation and energy efficiency programmes is a real slap in the face when that is combined with the cuts to the feed-in tariff that the Government brought in. Housing associations, which house some of the most vulnerable people who are often in fuel poverty, were going to roll out a comprehensive solar panelling programme to lower people’s bills and generate additional cash through the feed-in tariff, which would then enable them to improve yet more homes. Following the cut, those programmes are completely gone, which is a real tragedy for those people who would have benefited.

I congratulate the Government on ensuring that cold weather payments keep up with inflation, but Wales rarely experiences seven continuous days with an average temperature of 0º. We are far more likely to see the temperature fluctuate, so the payment is not the answer that we would like to think it is. It is definitely important for emergencies, but it is not something that the Government can be proud of because, at the same time, they have taken £100 off the £400 winter fuel allowance for the over-80s, and £50 off the £250 winter fuel allowance for other pensioners. That has left people over the past two years with an even greater struggle to pay their bills than previously.

It is worrying that the Government have not got a grip on energy companies that are letting prices go up and up. They really need to step in and have a far stronger regulator, which is certainly something that Labour would be doing in government. One thing that has distressed me most is the issue of SWALEC—now SSE—which is a large supplier in south Wales. Because many people tend to be loyal to their original company, they have not switched from their supplier, and that particularly applies to people who are perhaps elderly, or not in a position to make price comparisons on a website. Such people often stick with their original supplier.

The supplier has chosen to impose a standing charge of £100 for people’s electricity, and if they also have gas supplied by the company, they do not get a decrease or a discount—they pay another £100 for the privilege. When I took that up with the supplier, saying that it was absolutely outrageous that the standing charge had rocketed to the extent that the poorest families were paying £200 before they used even 1W of electricity or one therm of gas, I received the answer that the practice was encouraged by the regulator, because it would simplify things. However, it is clear that that is a regressive way of charging people, because those who are trying to scrimp and save—such people are often single pensioners, who make a terrific effort, perhaps by heating only one room and being very careful about what they use—are being hit the hardest.

I am cynical about the motives behind the charge, and one reason why is that I am aware that energy companies know that politicians are trying to suggest that they might offer the lowest tariff to the most vulnerable customers. If the lowest tariff is upped, a buffer is created against politicians doing that. Additionally, bills go up every time energy prices rise. Again, as politicians, we would like to see energy companies decreasing their charges when prices fall, but of course a standing charge will not be decreased. It seems to me that that is an extremely sly ploy to fix a price that will not be hit by the whim of politicians and that will escape such scrutiny. If that is what the regulator is recommending, I ask the Minister to have a serious discussion with it about whether that is the best way forward. I have singled out one company, because it is one in Wales whose actions hit a lot of my constituents.

England-Wales Transport Links

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Wednesday 6th February 2013 Westminster Hall

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) on securing the debate, because we all know that getting connectivity right across the UK is economically important.

I welcome the Government U-turn on electrification to Swansea, restoring the original Labour plans. It is a pity that we had to spend time on that discussion when we could have spent it discussing going further west with the electrification, which is obviously a direction in which I would like to see it go.

In this country, we have a real difference between east-west and north-south connectivity. I remember, when I was at school, drawing a map of the UK according to how long it took someone to get from A to B, and the elongation from east to west was clear. That is exactly the same today. I take two hours to get from London to Cardiff, which is 150 miles, and a further two hours to travel the 50 miles from Cardiff to Llanelli. The main reason for that is the change at Swansea station, which is a lot pleasanter now because we have a nice new waiting room—very much improved—but much as I enjoy the company of tourists and the families going on the boat to Ireland in the summer, in winter it can be extremely lonely, dark and open to the Swansea high street.

The real reason that puts people off coming to and investing in west Wales is not enough through trains. We must look at that and perhaps in the new franchise insist on many more through trains all the way from London to west Wales.

The first problem we encounter when travelling from London to west Wales is Reading where, for ever and a day, there seem to be delays, problems and congestion. I hope that the Minister will look at that and prioritise the way through Reading so that we are not held up at the first point on our way westwards.

The recent wet weather saw access through Bristol Parkway limited because of flooding and the perennial problems with the Severn tunnel. I want the Minister to ensure that everything is being done to try to bring together the relevant agencies to improve flood prevention in the Bristol and Severn tunnel areas. The sort of floods we saw recently are unlikely to be an isolated event, and will be repeated.

I welcome the Welsh Government’s intention to purchase Cardiff airport. It is a tremendous opportunity to turn it around from a rather run-down business and to increase the opportunities so that people do not have to travel all the way from Wales to Heathrow with all the costs involved—often an overnight stay or high car parking charges. It will open up an opportunity for people in many areas around Wales, such as Worcester, Gloucester, Cheltenham and Bristol, to come to Cardiff airport for their flights abroad. That will depend on transport into Wales, and at the moment, apart from the M4, there is weakness in that midlands area, as the hon. Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams) and for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) highlighted. There is a significant need for improvement.

When I went to the Corby by-election, it was quicker to go via London. South Wales has good links to London, and to Manchester and from there to the north and the north-east, but there is a weakness in anything that goes through the midlands. Trying to travel sensibly and as the map would suggest through the middle of England seems to be incredibly difficult, and we need a further emphasis on what can be done to make services better. The north has the trans-Pennine route, but we do not have an equivalent route from Birmingham to the east midlands, linking back into the constituency of the hon. Member for Ceredigion. We must improve that.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The hon. Lady is making a valid point. Perhaps one of the great benefits of electrification —we all welcome it, and it is coming to Swansea—is that, as some transport experts have suggested, a case could be made for the possibility of a regional Eurostar service to Paris and Brussels. That would open up Wales to the wider European Union market.

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed, but for that to be successful we need many more through trains, and connectivity when we come into London so that we are not stopped half way because of difficulties in Reading, Bristol and the Severn tunnel area. I hope that the Minister will look at the matter in the round and try to improve our east-west connectivity in this country.

S4C

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Thursday 31st January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Thank you, Sir Alan, for the way in which you have managed to fit us all into the debate, despite the difficulties.

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) on his part in securing the debate. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for according us this opportunity to celebrate 30 years of S4C. The debate comes at an important time for S4C, given that we had the announcement only yesterday that the BBC Trust and the S4C Authority have agreed the operating agreement that will govern the future funding and accountability arrangements between S4C and the BBC from April 2013. From then on, the majority of S4C’s public income will be provided by the BBC from the licence fee.

We have heard slightly different versions from both sides of the Chamber of the history of S4C and how the channel came about. The important thing, however, is that it now has support on both sides of the House. I pay tribute to Gwynfor Evans for his work and his determined stance. He is best known for his threat to go on hunger strike, but he did a lot of work before that. I should particularly mention the intervention of the so-called three wise men: Syr Goronwy Daniel, the former principal of the university of Wales in Aberystwyth; the former Archbishop of Wales, Gwilym Williams; and Cledwyn Hughes, the former leader of the Labour peers in the House of Lords. They intervened to try to prevail on the then Prime Minister to change her mind. So it was that Sir Goronwy Daniel became the first chairman of the new channel, and Owen Edwards was appointed chief executive. It may interest hon. Members to know that S4C first broadcast on 1 November, before the new Channel 4, which broadcast on 2 November, in 1982. To start with, the agreement was for 22 hours a week of broadcasting, for a trial period of three years. That seems a long way in the past, but that is how it was then. What a difference that is from the 7 am to midnight service that we enjoy today.

It is not always fully understood that S4C is a commissioning body. In other words it has a finance, contracts and legal department, and a commissioning arm. It has been responsible for commissioning programmes from independent companies across Wales. There was an agreement from the beginning with the BBC to provide 10 hours of programmes per week, but apart from that the output is commissioned by S4C from independent companies. The growth in output from the original 22 hours a week to the current daily coverage, from early in the morning to late at night, has led to a flourishing Welsh-language media sector in Wales, with independent companies across Wales employing some 2,000 people. That has been important not only in providing much needed quality jobs in Wales and a range of Welsh media work experience and apprenticeship opportunities for young people; it has given people in Wales pride in the language and an opportunity to show what we can do. Companies such as Tinopolis in my constituency compete internationally.

Of course, there is a knock-on effect into the local economy. More than 100 regular employees come into the centre of Llanelli to work in Tinopolis, not to mention the many guests who come to stay there to work with the company, who increase footfall in the local shops and businesses. That is a real boost to the local economy and I believe that such decentralisation, and the way independent companies have been able to work across Wales, has been important for many communities. It has given them pride that their company takes part in something as big and important as S4C, and has provided job opportunities, and skills opportunities for young people.

Hon. Members from both sides of the House have mentioned funding cuts, and particularly the worrying cuts from the DCMS budget. I hope that the Minister hears that, and I will not go through the figures again. However, the impact of the cut in S4C’s programming budget, from £85 million to £65 million, is already apparent. Jobs, and opportunities for young people, are already being lost.

As a language teacher, I am particularly aware of the huge importance of S4C in fostering the use of the Welsh language. People choose to use one language or another in different circumstances for complex reasons, but S4C has had a significant role in encouraging and facilitating the use of the Welsh language and in helping people to feel confident, and to find it natural to use it. One problem is that pupils may be attending, or have recently attended, Welsh-medium or bilingual schools, but once they are outside the school the world around them is often dominated by English. That is not just because English is the main language of 80% of the people who live in Wales, nor just because of the influence of our neighbour, England; it is also because English is a worldwide language, used for communication between people of many different tongues, and it has a dominant place in popular culture.

S4C has been vital in helping to foster use of the Welsh language in the past 30 years. One of its great challenges has been to be everything to everyone, from soap opera to highbrow. We all have certain registers of language, but S4C programmes help us to extend them, whether in current affairs and new vocabulary, documentaries, popular comedy series or soap operas. We are exposed to registers that we might not naturally use. We are exposed to different regional accents so that we become less insular and more aware of how people say things in the north or south of Wales. We are better able to communicate as a nation; S4C has done a lot to help with that. Fifty per cent. of Welsh speakers come from homes that are not solely Welsh-speaking, so even people who are not surrounded at home by speakers of the same language have opportunities to continue to hear, use, repeat and be aware of the language.

Subtitles are vital for helping people who are less confident. When I talk about learners I do not mean just people who arrived in Wales and began learning the language yesterday. Most of us in Wales are learners in one way or another. We all feel less confident about some areas of our language than others. We all have the opportunity, through different types of programme, to increase our fluency and understanding.

The range of children’s programmes is fantastic, and the introduction of the new “Ti, fi a Cyw”, to help parents who are not Welsh speakers to learn alongside their children who watch the programme, is important. There are also things such as “Stwnsh”, for older children. It is important, particularly for teenagers, that Welsh TV is not seen just as the language of mam-gu—just the hymn singing and the countryside programmes, which perhaps do not appeal to the younger, teenage audience. It is important for things to be brought up to date. Sport has been crucial to that, because if people want to watch a programme for its own value, they will want to understand it. Tribute has also been paid, of course, to high-quality productions such as “Hedd Wyn” and “Solomon a Gaenor”.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Funding and high-production drama is important. It can take three or four years to get from concept to production, and that is why certainty of funding is important, and why the point made by the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) at the end of his speech is especially pertinent to the debate.

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed; the hon. Gentleman is right about that.

People who live in parts of the United Kingdom outside Wales—some 144,000 of them a week—tune in to S4C. That is immensely important. Students and working people may live in different parts of the UK during their lives, and that helps them to keep up to date, and keep up their Welsh skills.

During the lifetime of S4C there has been unprecedented change in communication technologies. It is almost unbelievable that in 1982 we were still putting film in our cameras, and journalists used to rush to phone boxes to relay breaking news. It was in that year that my constituent Winston Thomas, the owner of Pembrey airport and founder, owner and chief executive officer of Celtic Engineering, was part of a team that developed the first commercial e-mail and numerous other products and services, including fibre-optic systems. We have come a long way from there, but what does the future hold? Gone are the days of the family huddling around one TV set in the living room, and arguing over which of the four channels to watch. People can now access numerous channels, through a wealth of different media devices, and it is a complex thing even to collect current viewing figures, never mind to predict viewers’ future behaviour. That is a challenge for S4C.

As I mentioned, S4C and the BBC have had a long relationship, and we all welcome the announcement made yesterday, setting the agreement between them on a firm footing. Of particular importance in that agreement is the affirmation that

“S4C shall retain its editorial, managerial and operational independence from the BBC at all times during the term of this agreement”.

Furthermore,

“S4C shall retain its commercial freedom and S4C’s commercial activities shall continue to operate in accordance with the relevant statutory framework.”

Those are important aspects of the agreement. Not only funding but independence has been set out.

I have a few questions for the Minister. Members on both sides of the Chamber have mentioned the importance of funding, and £7 million per year of S4C’s funding will continue to come from the DCMS budget; but that sum is guaranteed only until 2015. Continued funding from DCMS is vital to the future of S4C. If it were not forthcoming it would equate to total real-terms funding cuts of 42%. Under section 31 of the Public Bodies Act 2011, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport must ensure sufficient funding for S4C to provide its public service. What will happen about funding post-2015? How does the Department propose to make the evaluation of the public service provided by S4C? What criteria will the Department use to work out what constitutes sufficient funding for that public service?

As the Minister will appreciate, and as mentioned by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), S4C, as a commissioning body, needs to plan well in advance, and it is keen to engage with officials as soon as possible to discuss the criteria. Will he confirm that his officials will engage with S4C on the issue? When will the meetings begin? I can understand why the Minister will say that he cannot commit beyond the period of the comprehensive spending review. Indeed we on the Opposition Benches certainly hope for a change in Government in 2015. However, as he and I both know, there is homework to be done on this. Whoever is in Government, the officials in the DCMS will continue, and the matter cannot be left to drift. Will the Minister confirm when he will engage with S4C on what constitutes sufficient funding for its public service commitment?

Ford UK (Duty of Care to Visteon Pensioners)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 4th December 2012 Westminster Hall

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Caton.

We need to remember the utter devastation that the goings-on at Ford and Visteon visited on some of our constituents. Having worked all their life and put by their money, they do not expect to be treated in such a way that their pension is 50% down on what they had hoped. In the days when workers could choose which factory to work in, some might have chosen Ford specifically because it was a reputable company, with a decent salary and a decent pension contribution scheme, only to be told a few years later that the figures did not add up and that they were not going to get what they thought.

Workers were told that they had no option but to transfer their pension. They were told that it was not legally possible for Visteon UK employees to remain in the Ford pension scheme post-spin-off. They either had their pension frozen until they were 65 or they transferred it, being told that it would continue to grow as per the existing terms and conditions. There has therefore been a terrible betrayal. Again and again in the documentation, we read sentences such as:

“Your accrued pension rights will be protected”.

Workers were told by Ford that their “pension benefits are guaranteed”. That was also stated in an e-mail, in which the answers had been approved by the director of personnel for Ford Britain. A letter dated August 2000 from Brian Smith, the human resources manager, clearly stated:

“For employees transferred to Visteon from Ford on 1 May 2000, the new Visteon Scheme will provide exactly the same benefits as the Ford Fund, now and in the future”.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Is the hon. Lady aware of a question-and-answer document circulated particularly to employees in the Swansea plant? It included the question:

“If I stay with Visteon will my pension be secure?”

The answer was:

“Visteon has committed to mirror the terms and conditions of Ford. This means that…your pension”

will “be secure”. Is that not a case of deliberate misinformation or, even worse, deception?

[Nia Griffith]

Indeed. We often hear the word “mis-selling” used in relation to financial products, but that is far too kind a word, which suggests some kind of mistake. I call it a complete rip-off, a complete betrayal and an absolute disgrace in relation to what people were told and what the reality turned out to be. Clearly, somebody knew what was going on.

Welsh Affairs

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards]

rose—

[Nia Griffith]

I will not give way.

The hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire spoke of the importance of small businesses in Wales, and my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) praised the benefits of mindfulness. The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire reminded us of the beauty of Pembrokeshire, only to be upstaged immediately by my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the contribution of local companies to the UK economy, which is extremely important.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn referred to the need for clear policies on energy, and I shall return to that matter shortly. The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) made the case for devolving Welsh language broadcasting. Sadly, the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) spent a great deal of time criticising a report, when his constituents would probably have been more interested if he had taken up the very real issue of rocketing prices at the petrol pump, particularly in rural Wales.

If we are to see the economy in Wales flourish, we need economic policies from the UK Government that will stimulate growth. We need fiscal policies that will strike the right balance between paying down the deficit and getting the economy going. We need taxation policies that do not squeeze lower and middle income households so hard that they have no money to put back into the Welsh economy and struggle even to pay the most essential household bills.

I was dismayed to hear the Secretary of State reiterate at Welsh questions yesterday that she was in favour of sticking to plan A. I am sorry to have to point out to her that her Government’s plan A is hurting but not working. Sometimes I wonder what planet she is living on. She only has to walk down any high street in Wales to see shops closing and the economy on its knees. The latest high-profile victim is Peacocks. We certainly welcome its takeover by the Edinburgh Woollen Mill and the jobs that that has secured, but 3,000 jobs will still be lost and more than 200 shops will close, including both the Peacocks stores in Llanelli.

No matter what initiatives the Welsh Government undertake—I point out two in particular: the excellent Jobs Growth Wales programme aimed at creating 4,000 jobs a year, with an emphasis on the private sector; and help for business in the form of some £55 million in grants and loans—UK economic policy is enormously important in helping or hindering the success of those initiatives. When it comes to inward investment to Wales from overseas, I certainly agree that there should be the closest possible collaboration between the Welsh Government and other relevant bodies such as UK Trade & Investment to avoid duplication and increase Wales’s outreach overseas.

We are not going to get anywhere, however, unless we have a UK Government providing the right economic and business climate to make the UK a preferred destination for investment in business and manufacturing. When Labour was in government, an additional 1.1 million new businesses were created. By the time we left office in 2010, the World Bank ranked the UK as the best country in Europe for ease of doing business and fourth best in the world, ahead of the US. While there is always room for improvement and we should seek to streamline wasteful bureaucracy, time-consuming duplication and form filling, to use cutting red tape as the main strategy for driving economic recovery, as this Government seem to be trying to do—and, indeed, as the Under-Secretary for Wales said yesterday at Welsh questions—is addressing the wrong problem. That is to avoid the two very real issues of creating the right economic conditions to foster growth and creating the right political climate—that is, the certainty about policy that is needed to encourage long-term investment in manufacturing and jobs.

The Government’s attitude to business and industry matters—it matters very much to Wales. What business and industry need more than anything are certainty and confidence that the UK Government will not move the goalposts. It is extremely disturbing that this Conservative-Lib Dem Government have created so much uncertainty about their commitment to green policies that the UK has slipped from third to 13th in the world for investment in green growth.

The Secretary of State and her Cabinet colleagues need to restore business confidence and create a climate of certainty before they damage any more industries or frighten off any more potential investors. We have seen how the UK Government’s catastrophic imposition of sudden changes to the feed-in tariffs for solar panels is already putting hundreds of jobs at risk in Wales. Here was a scheme that gave a real boost to private industry in Wales—a scheme that was unlocking capital and attracting people to use their savings or borrow money to invest in solar panels. By investing that £10,000 or £20,000, they were providing private sector jobs in the Welsh economy. What other scheme do the Government have to unlock capital in that way and use it to stimulate growth in the local economy?

As my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn mentioned, before the election Labour set up a £60 million fund to attract investment in offshore wind power. In 2010, the current Prime Minister promised to continue the policy, but nearly two years later just £1.2 million has been awarded and many companies are looking elsewhere to invest. Indeed, big investors in wind energy, such as General Electric, Vestas, Gamesa and Mitsubishi, are threatening to take millions of pounds worth of green jobs abroad because they are losing patience with this Government. They do not know where they stand, and they now seriously doubt the Tory Government’s commitment to renewables.

The UK has some of the best wind resource in the world. Indeed, the UK is the windiest country in the EU, and we have our fair share of it in Wales, but the signals coming from the UK Government are confused, hesitant and lukewarm. When companies are making big decisions about where to build energy installations or set up factories to manufacture the components, they need to know what Government policies are, what returns they can expect and what the financial incentives are—they need a climate of certainty. I urge the Secretary of State and her Cabinet colleagues to provide clear policies to attract green investment.

Moving on to UK Government policy that affects Wales, only a fortnight ago we heard the very worrying news that Britain could lose its treasured triple A rating—the very justification the Chancellor has used for his crippling austerity measures. Why would the UK lose its triple A status? Because this Government have forgotten that in order to pay back the deficit, they also have to think of stimulating growth in the economy to make the money to pay back the deficit. That is where this Government are failing. This Government inherited a growing economy, so it is no wonder that people are asking why we have seen almost no growth for a year and why the Government have had to revise their borrowing up by £158 billion.

We are seeing just what Labour has been warning of since 2010: the Chancellor is cutting too fast and too deep, and by hitting lower and middle income households the hardest, he is hitting the very people who spend their money most immediately back into the Welsh economy just to keep themselves clothed and fed. His policy is not only deeply unfair; it is economic madness. It is already having a direct effect on the Welsh economy, and we have only seen the beginning of the cuts. Let us make no mistake: over the next three years, the Government will—according to House of Commons figures—take £6 billion out of the pockets of people in Wales, and that will include £800 million in tax credits. Tax credits are money that families who are working hard and trying to do the right thing are given to top up their incomes, and they need to spend that money straight away in order to keep their homes warm and their children fed and clothed.

What else is the Chancellor cutting? He is cutting £7 million from health in pregnancy grants, and £113 million from child trust funds, and the freezing of child benefit is equivalent to a cut of £249 million. He is cutting £209 million from disability living allowance, and £43 million from lone parent benefits. All that is coming out of the Welsh economy, as is the £1.5 billion cut that will result from the use of CPI rather than RPI to uprate benefits, and all that is happening against the background of pay freezes—not to mention the more than £2 billion cut represented by the rise in VAT.

What we need now is a real economic stimulus from the UK Government to back up the Welsh Government’s initiatives on jobs and help for industry, and that is what I ask the Secretary of State to provide. I ask her to look at Labour’s five-point plan for stimulating the economy, and to cut VAT, boost jobs and stand up for Wales by doing something that will really help to get the Welsh economy going. People cannot see any help at all coming from the Secretary of State to us. They cannot see the Secretary of State standing up for Wales, and that is what they would like to see.

Finance Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Tuesday 28th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Nia Griffith]

Absolutely. That is now having a devastating impact on the economy, on businesses and on individual families. In our new clause, we are asking for a proper impact assessment of the effect of the VAT rate on growth in the UK. Let us see whether the Government can come up with something more constructive and find a way to drive the economy forward.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I thank my parliamentary neighbour for giving way. Is she saying that the evidence is already there that the VAT rise is hurting the economy, as I believe it is, or that we need a review to see whether it is doing so?

[Nia Griffith]

I am saying that any fiscal measure is interdependent on other fiscal measures and the Government need to decide how their growth strategy will work and how the VAT rate will fit into that, in addition to any other fiscal measures they wish to take. I am not promoting any one particular measure, but there needs to be some form of stimulus because at the moment we are spiralling downwards and seeing increases in the debt and the deficit, in the benefits bill and in the number of people who are out of work. We would like to see increases in the number of jobs and in the number of businesses that are picking up and we would like to see the deficit come down so that we can get Britain back to work and get people back into jobs. The problem at the moment is that the policies with which we are being presented seem to do precisely the opposite, as was ably explained by my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) a moment ago.

We need a proper assessment and we need proper decisions to be made on the basis of it to help our economy to grow.

Consumer Credit and Debt Management

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and Nia Griffith

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

I rise to speak in favour of the motion. As a former policy officer for Citizens Advice Cymru—before my election to this place—I was able to see how the nature of the advice issues dealt with by the citizens advice bureaux in our communities changed dramatically during the second half of the previous decade. Although welfare benefit issues had previously been the staple diet of bureaux, personal debt cases rapidly became the largest single issue dealt with by advisers, totalling well over a third of all client issues. Citizens Advice client figures offer a detailed insight into the social problems faced by communities across the UK, and the latest quarterly figures for Wales are sobering. Total client inquiries over the year totalled nearly 390,000—a year-on-year increase of 19%, of which debt-related cases totalled more than 134,000, which was an incredible 37% of all cases and an increase of 14% on the previous year.

There is always a lag between the true human cost of any recession and a return to economic growth, and things will certainly get much worse before they get better. The current fiscal policy of the UK Government will, I am afraid, only exacerbate matters. The economic record of the previous UK Government has rightly been criticised for the manner in which the public finances were allowed to run out of control, but the manner in which consumer debt was allowed to rocket has received little attention. Consumer debt in the UK lies at around £1.4 trillion—a sum equivalent to 100% of the UK’s total annual economic output. To put this in context, in 1997 combined personal debt stood at about £500 billion. It is an incredible figure that will be a significant economic headwind for the future.

There is a great social crisis facing communities across the UK, and the UK Government cannot stand idly by. We need a comprehensive solution involving regulation of the high-interest lending market. However, central and devolved Governments also need to work together to put in place a package of support and educational services to deal with acute debt problems as well ensuring that financial capability is increased among the wider community. We welcome the decision of the UK Government to regulate the excessive interest rates of credit and store cards, but there are no plans to intervene in the high-interest lending market involving payday loans, pawnbrokers, doorstep lenders, mail-order cheque-cashing agencies and high street alternatives such as Oakam.

My predecessor, Adam Price, introduced a ten-minute rule Bill—the Interest Rates (Limits on Charges) Bill—that would have introduced a capping structure with the aim of achieving the ambitions of the motion we are debating today. People who rely on these sorts of products are often extremely vulnerable and on low incomes, and face interest charges of up to 2,500%. It is exploitation at its worst, and the lax regime that currently exists in the UK is indefensible. These sorts of business models were pioneered in the US, but in the land of the free there has been a backlash: 15 states have prohibited payday lending, and 35 states have introduced interest caps. Furthermore, in Europe, as we have heard, 14 countries have some sort of capping structure.

I would like to touch briefly on the issue of debt management plans, and the need for the sector to be subject to robust statutory regulation, including—at the very least—a cap on fees for the debt advice they offer, and subject to an independent audit funded by themselves.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Why is the hon. Gentleman’s party attacking Communities First, which has done some very good work on providing debt advice? Why is it suggesting that it should no longer receive funding from the Welsh Assembly Government?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I am afraid that I have no idea what the hon. Lady is talking about—perhaps we can discuss it another time.

One of the growth industries of the recession involved advice sharks, who exploit the human misery caused by the downturn. On a fee basis, individuals and families find themselves signing up for expensive debt management schemes, which only increase their problems. It is estimated that in 2010 companies would have amassed fees in excess of £250 million, often on an up-front basis and with consumers encouraged to take out further credit to pay for these fees. These matters are being considered as part of the consumer credit and insolvency review. However, we need urgent action now to protect consumers, and I would urge Ministers to act with haste.

To close, I would like to congratulate the Welsh Government on some of their exciting initiatives. The creation of the Welsh financial education unit is a step towards ensuring that future generations are more financially literate. The all-Wales lending unit is at the forefront of the fight against illegal lending in my country, and an all-Wales coverage of credit unions to provide alternative affordable lending is much to be welcomed. However, I would urge more ambition in my own country—by rolling out interest-free JAK-banking-like products in our credit unions, and through the creation of a national money advice service made up of existing providers and based on the excellent money advice and budgeting service in the Republic of Ireland.