Welsh Affairs

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Monday 19th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

May I say how pleased I am that the traditional St David’s day debate is taking place again this year, albeit on the wrong side of St Patrick’s day? Like the hon. Member for Neath (Christina Rees), I was very disappointed when the beast from the east paid its visit. Of course, we had a further visit this weekend from its little cousin, and I was a bit concerned that we would not be able to have the debate again today, but here we are. It is important that hon. Members on both sides of the House have the opportunity to debate Welsh affairs.

I would like to start by saying how much I, in north Wales, appreciate, contrary to what the hon. Lady said, the Government’s investment in Wales. I was astounded to hear her complaining about a lack of investment. We have had city deals in both Cardiff and Swansea, which have been welcomed on both sides of the House and by the Welsh Government. As the right hon. Member for Delyn (David Hanson) pointed out, we expect a north Wales growth deal shortly, for which I personally thank George Osborne. Like the right hon. Gentleman, I am impatient to see exactly what the shape of that growth deal will be. Councils across north Wales, the Mersey Dee Alliance and businesses are all working very hard to shape it, and I very much hope that later this year we will see some flesh on the bone.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I do not think that the right hon. Gentleman can get away with trying to portray the Swansea Bay city deal as some sort of UK Government giveaway to the Welsh economy, because 90% of the money comes from the Welsh public and private sectors.

[Mr Jones]

Like most city deals and growth deals, this is a question of partnership working. Nevertheless, we are seeing investment in Swansea and in Cardiff, so I felt it was slightly churlish of the hon. Member for Neath to complain.

I shall concentrate on north Wales, as that is the part of Wales of most interest to my constituents. North Wales is an important part of what is, in reality, a cross-border north-west England and north Wales regional economy. I think that hon. Members on both sides of the House realise that and, as a consequence, we have seen the formation of the all-party group on Mersey Dee North Wales, which is very ably chaired by the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian C. Lucas). In no small part due to the work of the all-party group, policies have developed that I believe will be of immense benefit to not only north Wales itself, but the north-west of England.

I sometimes think that hon. Members from other parts of Wales may not fully realise the extent to which the economies of north Wales and the north-west of England are closely integrated. We have major employers on both sides of the border. We have heard already about Airbus, JCB and Toyota on the Welsh side, but there are also major employers on the other side of the border, including Vauxhall. Every day people from both sides of the border commute across it to their places of work. A great deal more could be achieved if we sought to achieve a synergy between north-west England and north Wales. I think that, perhaps a little belatedly, the Welsh Government are starting to recognise that, too. Recently I paid a visit to Cardiff with the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee. We took evidence from the First Minister, Carwyn Jones. Hearteningly, he recognised that there could be a role for further devolved institutions in north Wales, which could work with institutions on the English side of the border to further the economies of both regions.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Committee: 2nd sitting: House of Commons
Wednesday 15th November 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

That may well be so, but I invite the hon. Lady to digest the terms of article 126 of the EEA agreement and then consider whether at the moment of our departure from the EU we will still be subject to the EEA agreement. I believe we will not.

For the reasons I have outlined, I invite the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr not to press amendment 217, too.

[Jonathan Edwards]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones). In the normal course of events he would be responding to our amendments, but I must say that much of what he said today went completely over my head; I will have to read it tomorrow in Hansard and try to dissect it. Perhaps we can debate it on another occasion.

I rise to speak to amendments 217 and 87, tabled in my name and those of my hon. Friends. They are probing amendments, so I do not aim to detain the House for a protracted time. Along with amendment 64, amendment 217 would exclude the EEA agreement from the Bill, allowing the UK to keep open the option of remaining in the EEA as the negotiations proceed. Currently, the Bill seeks to repeal the domestic effects of the EEA agreement, but the British Government have given no explicit notice to withdraw under article 127 of the EEA agreement. Our departure from the single market is therefore not inevitable, and there is still time to change to a path that puts the economy first, as many hon. Members have said.

Our continued membership of the single market and the customs union is absolutely crucial to the viability of the Welsh economy beyond Brexit. In wanting to leave the single market and the customs union, the Government are contradicting themselves. The European red tape that the Brexiteers belittle as a regulatory burden also safeguards the environment, keeps our food safe and our rights upheld. By taking the UK outside of the EEA and the customs union, the Government would be generating a gratuitous amount of red tape for our key exporters. Employers in my constituency would face unnecessary logistical and financial barriers to sell to their European markets, which are by far the most important for our exporters.

We have been told again and again that a hard Brexit will reinstate the UK as global power. Despite sounding appetising, that is wholly illogical. It is counter-intuitive to say that removing the UK from the most successful and richest economic bloc will in any way make the UK more global. In reality, the Tories are reverting to their 19th-century policy of splendid isolationism. To leave the single market and the customs union is to voluntarily exclude ourselves from having unencumbered access to the markets necessary for the post-Brexit longevity and viability of the economies of Wales and the UK.

The statistics do not lie. Wales exports some £16 billion-worth of goods every year—more than the Welsh Government’s entire budget. Despite reducing access to our main markets in Europe, the Government have no guarantee of any access to new markets after exit day. Some 200,000 jobs across Wales are sustained by the single market and the customs union. By wrenching us out of both frameworks, the British Government will be rolling the dice on the livelihoods of these 200,000 Welsh people.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Chairman of the International Trade Committee speaks with great expertise. That was one of the first questions that I asked the Secretary of State for International Trade when he was appointed, and it has been forgotten in this debate. The Government informed us at the time that the transition would be seamless, but it appears that that might not be the case.

These are not idle threats; this is the reality. Only yesterday, Aston Martin’s CEO came here and told Members directly that a no-deal Brexit would mean the cessation of production of their cars in the UK. That means their new flagship plant in the Welsh Secretary’s backyard in the Vale of Glamorgan could be pulled even before it begins production of the first car.

My concerns, and those of my Plaid Cymru colleagues, are entirely predicated on Wales’s national interests. That means ensuring full and unconstrained access to our important European markets, which are the destination for 67% of all Welsh exports and 90% of our food and drink exports. It means our NHS, universities and industries being able to recruit skilled workers from across Europe. It means putting Welsh jobs, wages and, fundamentally, my nation’s future first. It is not feasible that trade deals with Australia, New Zealand and other far-flung nations will replace the level of economic activity that the EU trade sustains in Wales.

Leaving the single market and the customs union does not mean going back to some comfortable status quo. We need a reliable and effective system in place to prevent potential catastrophe on exit day. We have the option of remaining in the single market and the customs union, as has been made clear by chief negotiator Michel Barnier during the discussions to date. Maintaining those vital economic frameworks would be the most prudent economic path to take, instead of endeavouring to create something new and untested that could not possibly replicate the benefits of EEA status.

[Mr David Jones]

Before the hon. Gentleman leaves his discussion of EEA membership, does he not accept that article 126 of the EEA agreement provides explicitly that it applies only to members of the European Union and to the relevant members of EFTA? Given that we will be neither, how can it possibly apply to us?

[Jonathan Edwards]

That point was also made by the First Minister of Wales when he was against this position, before he changed to agreeing with Plaid Cymru. Surely we should be endeavouring to achieve what was promised by Brexiteers such as Daniel Hannan prior to the referendum. He said that the Norway solution would be the most applicable and best solution for the UK.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Jones]

I shall speak briefly in support of amendments 158 to 160 in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies). He has dealt very well with the thrust of the amendments and I do not wish to repeat what he has said. However, I would like to focus on proposed new subsection (4D) which provides:

“The Secretary of State may give a direction to Welsh Ministers that applications for consent for the construction or extension of stations generating electricity from wind which would have a capacity less than 51 megawatts must be determined by local planning authorities and must not be called in or determined by Welsh Ministers.”

As I mentioned on Second Reading, there have been unintended consequences of the Energy Act 2016, which is a development of UK Government policy that provides that all applications for onshore wind generating stations should no longer be governed by the Planning Act 2008, but should instead be determined by local planning authorities. This applies also in Wales, but as a consequence of Welsh legislation, the Welsh Government have designated all wind farm developments in Wales as so-called developments of national significance, which fall to be considered by the Welsh Government.

My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire is right to insert this provision. We both come from parts of Wales where the development of wind farms has caused huge problems. They have been disproportionately scattered across rural Wales and there are large areas that almost literally have a turbine on every hillside. Local communities certainly want these applications to be determined at local level, and it is entirely right that the Welsh Government, having taken it upon themselves to adopt this power, should now have it taken away from them. The power should be returned to local authorities.

As I have suggested, this has been an example of the law of unintended consequences. I am absolutely sure that the Government did not expect that, as a consequence of the Energy Act 2016, all such applications would fall to be determined by the Welsh Government. That is what has happened, however, and local communities have been disfranchised. This proposal is therefore a sensible one, and I ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to give consideration to it. If he cannot accept it this evening, will he take it away and come back with another proposal on Report to address the concerns that I have outlined?

[Jonathan Edwards]

I rise to speak to new clauses 4, 5, 8 and 9. I also refer Members to my speech on new clauses 2 and 3 and income tax during our first day in Committee last week.

New clause 5 would devolve air passenger duty to Wales. In 2012, the Silk commission recommended the devolution of a block of financial powers, including air passenger duty, to the National Assembly. That was a carefully crafted package of measures. Those minor taxes were clearly listed as pressing, and the commission recommended that they be devolved in the next possible legislative vehicle, which happened to be the 2013 Finance Bill. For whatever reason, however, APD was missing from that Bill and a Plaid Cymru amendment that would have included it was defeated.

On the publication of its recommendations, the commission had cross-party and governmental support. However, four years on, I am disappointed that the Government have turned their back on the commission and its recommendations. They are instead simply cherry-picking the amendments that will be the least disruptive to the current devolution arrangement for Wales. In that period, we have had a Northern Ireland Act and two Scotland Acts through which APD was devolved to those countries and, needless to say, Labour and Tory MPs based in Wales supported those Acts. Wales is, once again, getting the short end of the stick when it comes to devolved taxation.

I am disappointed that the hon. Member for Cardiff Central (Jo Stevens) is not in the Chamber. Although she is apparently oblivious to her party’s inability to support the devolution of APD twice in the previous Parliament, she has rightly stated:

“Air passenger duty has already been devolved to the Northern Ireland Assembly and…to the Scottish Parliament, but despite this, the Budget did not propose that it be devolved to the Welsh Assembly.”—[Official Report, 25 May 2016; Vol. 611, c. 521.]

She asked for it to be devolved, and that is an unimpeachable argument—I agree with every word she said.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr David Jones]

Has the hon. Gentleman given any consideration to the impact that his proposals might have on north Wales’s local airports in Liverpool and Manchester?

[Jonathan Edwards]

The whole point of devolving APD to Wales is to allow Welsh Ministers to set their own priorities for the aviation industry in Wales. At the end of the day, it will be up to Welsh Ministers to consider the most appropriate APD policy for Wales to maximise revenues from their own public asset. Let us remember that Cardiff airport is owned by the people of Wales. Clearly, increasing footfall at the airport could generate substantial revenues elsewhere, primarily by boosting economic performance across the whole of the economy, especially in the Secretary of State’s own Vale of Glamorgan constituency.

I am not privy to the Cardiff airport’s strategic planning, but my understanding is that the element of APD that the airport is most interested in is long-haul taxation. As I mentioned, the airport has a superb runway that can accommodate transatlantic flights, which Bristol airport cannot. If Cardiff were to develop that angle of its business, that could surely be of use to Bristol airport, if transport links between both airports could be improved. There lies a challenge for the Welsh Government, because our international airport urgently needs public transport upgrades to get people from Cardiff—and indeed Swansea—to and from the airport. The current infrastructure is awful, compared with that of Belfast, Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Recent public opinion polls suggest that 78% of Welsh voters agree that APD should be devolved. That does not quite compare with the percentage who support the introduction of Welsh bank notes, but that incredibly high number is still a clear indication of public opinion. It takes a brave politician to ignore opinion poll figures of those proportions.

Furthermore, the National Assembly should have more responsibility for the money it spends. The Secretary of State for Wales himself has said that increasing its taxation responsibilities makes the Assembly “truly accountable” to the people of Wales, so why not include air passenger duty in the list of devolved taxes? Why continue to limit the financial responsibilities of the Welsh Government? Jane Hutt, the former Minister for Finance and Government Business in the Welsh Government, who I am not in the habit of quoting, has said:

“It is…disappointing that the UK Government has decided to continue its procrastination over the devolution of Air Passenger Duty. This discriminatory approach is unacceptable and unjustifiable”.

We have seen during the progress of the Bill that what the Labour Government say in Wales does not necessarily translate into voting behaviour where it counts down here in Westminster. Official Opposition Members might be relieved to hear that I do not intend to press the new clause to a Division, but I will return to the matter on Report. I hope that, in the meantime, the Secretary of State will listen to one of the most important strategic players in his constituency and his country, and I look forward to him bringing forward Government amendments to devolve APD before the Bill completes its progress through the House.

I now turn my attention to new clause 4, which would equalise the situation between Wales and Scotland when it comes to VAT revenues. The Scotland Act 2016 stated that revenues from the first 10 percentage points of the standard VAT rate would be devolved by the 2019-20 financial year. The current UK VAT rate is 20% and half of all the VAT raised in Scotland will be kept in Scotland. It is important to note that the Scottish Government will have no ability to change VAT rates.

Sales taxes in the United States are state taxes, not federal taxes, so different states have different levels of their version of VAT. We propose equalising the situation with Scotland because although EU rules prohibit different sales tax levels within the boundaries of a member state, adopting the Scottish model could pave the way, in a post-Brexit scenario, to devolving VAT in its entirety to Wales, to Scotland and to Northern Ireland. In a post-Brexit UK, it seems clear that significant political and fiscal power will have to be conceded by Westminster unless the post-Brexit vision is an even more lopsided state in which power and wealth are even more concentrated in London and the south-east.

The Scottish model has some incentivising benefits as it would help to galvanise the Welsh Government to boost the spending power of our citizens by basing a job creation strategy around well-paid jobs and seriously getting to grips with our low-wage economy. As page 4 of Cardiff University’s excellent “Government Expenditure and Revenue Wales 2016” report states:

“VAT was the largest source of revenue in Wales (raising £5.2 billion), followed by Income Tax (£4.6 billion) and National Insurance Contributions (£4.0 billion). The composition of revenues in Wales is markedly different from the UK as a whole. Large direct taxes…make up less of a share of total Welsh revenue, while a greater share is raised through indirect taxes”.

The report’s point is that indirect taxes such as VAT generate more revenue in Wales than direct taxes such as income tax. The report also indicates that Welsh tax revenues have grown by 12.3% since 2011, the main component of which was VAT revenues.

As long as we have a Tory UK Government, economic growth will continue to be based around consumer spending. If that is the case, it is all the more important that the people of Wales directly benefit from that growth and from their own spending power. Denying Wales the same powers as Scotland on VAT seems to be a deliberate attempt to undermine revenues for the Welsh Government.

New clause 4 is probing, so I will not be pressing it to a vote at this stage, but I look forward to hearing the UK Government’s justification for why they have not given Wales the same status as Scotland, especially considering the good performance of Wales—for whatever reason—in generating VAT revenues. I may return to this matter during the Bill’s later stages.

Similarly probing are new clauses 8 and 9, which would devolve corporation tax to mirror the situation in Northern Ireland. As a proud Welshman, I want my country to succeed. I desperately want our GDP to increase and to close the gap between the GDPs of Wales and the UK. If that is to happen, we unquestionably have to make Wales a more attractive place to do business. I want to make Wales the most attractive place in the UK to do business, and I hope that the Secretary of State for Wales would want the same for his country.

Most other countries are able to set their own rates of corporation tax. It is a lever with which a national Government can influence their country’s desirability to potential investors, but Wales is restricted from doing so. We are forced to compete with the other UK nations with our hands tied behind our backs. Northern Ireland has a huge competitive advantage over Wales, and we know about the rate in the Republic of Ireland, with which we share a sea border. We cannot build a High Speed 2 for Wales. We cannot electrify our railways and we cannot offer tax incentives. We are constantly forced to come to Westminster with a begging bowl. We are still waiting for even an inch of electrified railway. We are still not getting full Barnett consequentials from HS2, let alone getting our own high-speed rail, and we are once again being told that we cannot use corporation tax as a way of attracting business.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Jones (Clwyd West) (Con)]

I congratulate the Secretary of State on introducing the Bill. I have to say, however, that that should not be interpreted as meaning that I greet it with unalloyed enthusiasm. This is the fourth major piece of constitutional legislation aimed at conferring devolved powers on Wales in less than 20 years. The very fact that we are in the Chamber to debate this yet again shows just how flawed the original devolution settlement was and how important it is that, on this occasion, we try to get it right at the fourth time of asking.

The Secretary of State has very kindly presented a briefing note on the Wales Bill, in which he acknowledges that

“there is more work to do”,

and that there are “unresolved issues” and “unfinished business”. He goes on to say that he is looking to

“amend the Bill if necessary during its parliamentary passage.”

I must say that he is probably not likely to be disappointed in that regard.

The opening clauses of the Bill follow the current fashion for declaratory legislation. We are solemnly told that the

“Assembly and the Welsh Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom’s constitutional arrangements.”

We are also told that they are

“not to be abolished except on the basis of a decision of the people of Wales voting in”—

yet another—

“referendum.”

We are told that there is a “body of Welsh law”, which should not of course be in any way confused with a Welsh jurisdiction. There is a declaration that in effect incorporates the Sewel convention into statute, in that the Bill declares that this Parliament

“will not normally legislate with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Assembly.”

Such declarations are all well and good, but they are in danger of overlooking the constitutional fact that this Parliament is supreme, which makes one wonder about their worth and whether they are in reality mere window dressing.

It is somewhat ironic that, having quite rightly abandoned the necessity test, the Government are now apparently introducing a normality test. As my right hon. Friend acknowledged, that means that the courts might intrude on parliamentary sovereignty by deciding or being asked to decide whether a piece of legislation passed by this Parliament is, so to speak, normal.

The Bill does of course change the devolution settlement from a conferred powers model to a reserved powers model, which is deemed to make matters clearer. I have to say that I do not believe that a reserved powers model is, as many contend, a panacea. The reserved powers model is in reality simply a mirror image of the conferred powers model. The nature of the model is less important than the clarity of language, as other Members have pointed out.

That is particularly important in relation to whether the reservations are comprehensive. The danger is that if the reservations are not comprehensive, there will be problems. I am glad, for example, that my right hon. Friend has not emulated a former Secretary of State for Scotland, who made sure that Antarctica was a reserved matter, and that we will not therefore see an attempt to create a new Patagonia on that continent.

The necessity test has been abandoned to the extent that it is no longer the case that the Assembly can modify criminal and private law only where modification

“has no greater effect otherwise than…is necessary to give effect to the…provision.”

That was a positive invitation to go to the Supreme Court. However, there is still a necessity test in relation to the law on reserved matters. Proposed new section 108A(3) of the Government of Wales Act 2006 will provide that Assembly Acts cannot modify the law on reserved matters unless ancillary to a provision that is not reserved, but modification cannot go further than is necessary to achieve the devolved objective. Words such as “necessary” and “normally” lack objectivity, and are therefore subject to interpretation, including, in difficult cases, by the Supreme Court. I do not believe, therefore, that simply changing the model of devolution will necessarily achieve the clarity that everyone wants. In Committee, I believe it will be necessary to test whether the reservations are truly comprehensive to avoid any further difficulties of the sort we have already experienced. To be fair, however, the Secretary of State has acknowledged that the Bill is a work in progress, and he will no doubt be expecting such tests and, if necessary, significant amendments in Committee.

I do not want to dwell too lengthily on individual provisions, but some matters are worth mentioning. First, as the Secretary of State will have anticipated from my interventions, I have a huge concern about the proposal that income tax varying powers in the 2014 Act should now be triggered without a referendum. As a Conservative, I have a particular concern, because at the last general election—despite the apparently rapid passage of time, I remind him that it was only just over a year ago—I and Conservative colleagues campaigned on the basis that the powers would not be triggered without a referendum. Indeed, when I was specifically asked on the doorstep whether the powers would be imposed on the Assembly without consent, I made it absolutely clear that a referendum was contemplated. I must say that it is positively disrespectful of the people of Wales for this Parliament to seek to impose new tax-raising competences without consulting them first.

That was done in the case of Scotland, and despite the interventions already made by Opposition Members, it is perfectly possible to formulate such a question and, in the case of Scotland, one that could be answered in the affirmative. If the Scots are entitled to that, surely the people of Wales should be entitled to the same level of respect. I invite the Secretary of State to think about that, and to consider whether, in the circumstances, the Bill should be amended by the deletion of clause 16.

Secondly, although this may appear to be a minor point, I find it difficult to understand the rationale for devolving to the Assembly the setting of speed limits. Wales and England have a continuous, porous border, and every day there are many thousands of journeys back and forth across the border. It does not bear scrutiny that there should potentially be different speed limits on either side of that border—it makes no sense. I cannot understand what possible reason there could be for devolving the setting of speed limits. What mischief is it aimed at? Who asked for it? Why is it necessary?

Thirdly, there is the issue of electricity generating consents, set out in clause 36. I intervened on the Secretary of State about that. The 350 MW limit provided for in the Bill seems to have little practical significance, because wind generating stations are expressly excluded. The granting of energy generation consents for capacities of more than 350 MW will remain with the Secretary of State, and there are few conventional power stations with an output of less than 350 MW.

The worrying fact is that although the Bill is silent on the subject, it devolves competence to the Assembly for all onshore wind farms, with no upper limit at all. I refer the Secretary of State to the excellent Library note, which points out that the Energy Act 2016 has transferred competence for wind farm consents to local planning authorities. A piece of Welsh legislation with which I have no doubt we are all familiar, the Developments of National Significance (Specified Criteria and Prescribed Secondary Consents) (Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2016, provides that all wind farm developments in Wales are designated as developments of national significance. According to the Library note, which I have no reason to doubt, that means that all such developments, whether of up to 50 MW or more than 50 MW, will be determined by procedures set by the Assembly.

Given the thrust of policy at the Department of Energy and Climate Change, I suggest that the consequence of that will be a rush to develop wind farms in Wales. Indeed, I suggest that there may be a free-for-all. Areas such as my constituency, Montgomeryshire and Brecon and Radnor, which already have a lot of wind farms, are likely to be under further pressure for wind farm developments.

[Jonathan Edwards]

I hesitate to accuse the right hon. Gentleman of scaremongering, but the pace of development of renewable technologies relies on the subsidy that is available, which is determined by the Department of Energy and Climate Change.

[Mr Jones]

That is not the point that I am addressing, which is about competence. Given that the upper limit for wind farm consents in Wales is currently only 50 MW, it is alarming that it is now likely to be unlimited.

[Jonathan Edwards]

The right hon. Gentleman is being generous with his time. I have two TAN 8—technical advice note 8—areas in my constituency, and in one of them the only developments that have occurred have been determined by Westminster. The local planning authority, which is responsible for developments of below 50 MW, has turned them down.

[Mr Jones]

That may be the case, but I say with huge respect that I think the hon. Gentleman is missing the point, which is about competence. It seemed clear from the Secretary of State’s response to my intervention that what I said was news to him. It was based on the Library note, which I believe is accurate. I therefore ask the Secretary of State to reconsider the matter, and he may well wish to table amendments himself in Committee.

The Bill is a further step in the process of devolution, and I believe that it is a brave attempt to rectify the errors of the past. However, I strongly question whether, in its current form, it will do the job that it is intended to. As I said, the Secretary of State anticipated amendments in his briefing note, and I have no doubt that he will look forward to them with great anticipation.

Draft Wales Bill (Morning sitting)

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Mr David Jones]

It is a huge pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. May I commence by congratulating the hon. Member for Llanelli on calling for this Welsh Grand Committee today? I have often felt that this Committee contributes more than is frequently recognised to the political life of Wales, and I am glad that we are sitting here again. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on an excellent contribution to the debate.

This forum is important for Welsh MPs. I am pleased that we have the opportunity today to discuss the draft Wales Bill, which is the latest in an increasingly long line of measures put forward by successive Secretaries of State to address devolution in Wales. Our principal problem is that the devolution settlement as originally implemented was grossly defective. It was put in place in a hurry by the Blair Administration, and successive Governments since have had to make attempts to repair the damage done to the constitution of the United Kingdom as a consequence.

Like the Secretary of State, I started my journey as an avowed devo-sceptic. I have since become, as has Lord Murphy of Torfaen, a devo-realist, because it is clear that devolution will be a feature of the constitution of this country, at least for the foreseeable future. I congratulate the Secretary of State on attempting to put right what is in my view a defective settlement. However, I have huge concerns about this draft Bill, which I shall touch on later. Many have called for a move from a conferred powers model of devolution to a reserved powers model. The view that I have always taken, as has my right hon. Friend, is that simply to do that is not a panacea. We can have the same issues, but in mirror image, so to speak.

The proposed reserved powers model addresses some issues of concern, most importantly those of the silent subjects, which proved so problematic in the Agricultural Wages Board case. However, it is perfectly clear from today’s contributions in this Chamber and externally from experienced commentators that what is now proposed does not go far enough.

I do not want to deal with the specific provisions of the Bill at great length. However, I applaud my right hon. Friend for the reservation of policing from the devolution settlement. Policing is one of the three great public services. From a pragmatic point of view, it is perfectly clear that the Assembly has not so far proved successful in their stewardship of either health or education. I believe to confer competence for policing would be a step too far.

[Jonathan Edwards]

Is it the right hon. Gentleman’s position that policing should be re-reserved in the case of Scotland and Northern Ireland?

[Mr Jones]

I believe that is correct in the case of Wales. England and Wales, as we have heard at length today, is a conjoined jurisdiction. It makes far more sense for such an important public service as policing to be reserved. Furthermore, from a pragmatic point of view, let me say quite bluntly that I do not believe the Welsh Government would be able to handle policing. I think it would be beyond them.

I also have concerns about the proposed devolution of competence for harbours. Harbours are an important part of our economy. Again, I have concerns about the capacity of the Assembly to deal with them. On what may appear to be a minor matter, I think that the proposal to devolve competence for speed limits is, quite frankly, potty.

The problem with the draft Bill is not what is devolved and what is reserved. Those are matters for discussion, negotiation and rethought. The principal problems lie in schedule 2. This has been the subject of much discussion this morning. The core of the problem lies in the use of the word “necessary”. To decide the limits of devolution by an interpretation of the word “necessary” is a positive invitation for many more references to the Supreme Court.

It should be possible to arrive at a terminology. I had hoped that, when I intervened on the Shadow Secretary of State, she might have given thought to this matter and have a formulation herself, but it would appear not. Nevertheless, I suggest to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that considerable further thought needs to be given to the use of the word “necessary”. Otherwise, we will see many more cases referred to the Supreme Court, which is the last thing that anyone in this Chamber wants.

On the expression “reserved authority”, I see the need to refer to it. Increasingly, legislation emanating from the Assembly has imposed greater and greater burdens on non-devolved authorities and Ministries of State. It is quite right that those burdens should not be imposed and I believe, therefore, that they should be constrained. The expression “leeway and lock” has been used by the Wales governance centre in its recent paper. “Leeway and lock” sounds like the opening words of the 1951 test match. Nevertheless, I believe that it is important to define the area of competence wherein the Assembly operates and it is absolutely right that it should not be passing legislation that has unforeseen consequences on the reserved authorities referred to in the draft Bill.

It is right that, before any such burdens are imposed, the consent of the relevant Minister should be sought. It is, after all, the flipside of the provision that provides that where the Assembly’s competence is being invaded, the legislative consent motion should be sought. This can also be addressed by making provisions for a timescale within which consent can be given, or, as I think the Wales governance centre suggested, by a presumption in favour of a consent, unless consent is withheld within a certain time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I fear that the right hon. Gentleman has overlooked the arrangements that we put in place with the Welsh Government in October 2012, which ensure that if there is any danger of convergence, then the issue will be resolved. I believe that we should all be ambitious for Wales, and we should indeed be looking for a lower rate of income tax in Wales to give Wales the competitive advantage that it needs.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Is it the policy of the coalition parties fully to devolve income tax powers to Scotland, and if so, why does the Wales Bill still include a tax-sharing arrangement in relation to income tax powers, with the lockstep measure for safe measure? Why are the Tories treating Wales like a second-class nation?

[Mr Jones]

We have made it clear that the Scottish powers would kick in only after the next general election and they will, of course, have to be the subject of a manifesto commitment. However, Wales is not Scotland. We believe that the arrangements that we are putting in place are right for Wales. I would have hoped that the hon. Gentleman would support them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 14th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

My hon. Friend raises an important issue that has been the subject of discussion for some time. These routes fall partly under the purview of the Welsh Government and partly under that of the Department for Transport. I wrote to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport about this very issue only this morning.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The Mayor of London is now making the case for a £30 billion underground orbital road. Crossrail will cost £16 billion and HS2 will cost £50 billion at least. Considering the historically low levels of transport infrastructure investment in Wales, far below our population share, when will the Secretary of State start making the case for a fair share for Wales via the appropriate funding formula mechanism?

[Mr Jones]

HS2, of course, is an extremely important project that will benefit Wales, particular north Wales and mid-Wales. I am speaking to David Higgins of HS2 about that issue this very afternoon.

Wales Bill

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

It seems to me that that is a concern of the Mayor of London and does not really fall within the scope of today’s discussion.

Our proposal will put new economic levers in the hands of the Assembly and Welsh Government, while also providing independent streams of revenue to facilitate borrowing. It will help Welsh Ministers to grow the Welsh economy and ensure that its performance has a direct impact on their budget.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In devolving those minor taxes, the UK Government are conceding the principle of fiscal empowerment for the Welsh Government. Why does the Secretary of State therefore feel the need to require a referendum on devolving income tax?

[Mr Jones]

Simply because it is an important constitutional step. It was given to the Scottish people in 1997, and we feel it is necessary to pay equal respect to the people of Wales on the occasion of the proposed devolution.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jonathan Edwards]

The Secretary of State mentioned that one of the main reasons for devolving income tax was to incentivise the Welsh Government, yet he handcuffs them with his proposed lockstep, which was not included in the Silk recommendations. In the unlikely event of a no vote in Scotland, does he expect the lockstep to remain in Scotland following its referendum?

[Mr Jones]

I am not here to speculate on what will happen in Scotland in September, but I will talk about the lockstep in a moment—no doubt the hon. Gentleman will be paying close attention and intervening as he considers appropriate.

The reality is that this legislation—income tax devolution following a referendum—is a real opportunity to be seized with both hands by the Welsh Government. It is an opportunity to make Wales more competitive and to make the Welsh Government more accountable, as the hon. Member for Pontypridd now agrees. Our challenge to those who view the devolution of income tax negatively is not to shy away from this opportunity, but to seize the moment with enthusiasm and support the proposals in this Bill for a referendum on income tax devolution.

The Silk commission recommended that the Welsh Government should be able to set separate Welsh rates of income tax for each of the three income tax bands, but the Government believe that a single Welsh rate for all three bands—the so-called “lockstep”—is the right system for Wales. The same system is being introduced in Scotland under the Scotland Act 2012. The Government have a responsibility to take a UK-wide view: to consider the interests not only of Wales, but of the United Kingdom as a whole, including Wales. If the devolution of income tax is supported in a referendum, the lockstep mechanism would be the best way to maintain a progressive tax system that redistributes wealth across the whole of the UK but does not unnecessarily benefit one part of the UK at the expense of another.

The Bill also devolves responsibility to the Assembly for its own budgetary arrangements, so that it can establish new procedures for scrutinising and setting the annual budget. That was also recommended by the Silk commission, and by the Welsh Affairs Committee following its pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Wales Bill. The Bill before us today and the Command Paper the Government have published alongside it have benefited greatly from the Select Committee’s thorough and rigorous scrutiny, and I am grateful to all hon. Members on that Committee for their hard work.

Although the majority of the Bill is devoted to fiscal devolution, the legislation also implements a number of other important reforms: it permanently moves the Assembly to five-year terms; it removes the prohibition on dual candidacy; and it makes provision to preclude Assembly Members from simultaneously being Members of this House. Those are all changes which we consulted on in our Green Paper in 2012. The move to permanent five-year terms will make it less likely that Assembly elections will clash with UK general elections, now that the length of Parliaments is fixed at five years. It is important that Assembly elections should be contested, wherever possible, on issues specific to Wales, and the Bill ensures that they will not be overshadowed by the wider issues that often dominate elections to this House.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

I agree entirely. Anybody with a reasonable mind would agree that those figures are entirely unacceptable. Again, I suggest to Opposition Members from Wales that they should have a discreet word with their colleagues in the Assembly to ensure that Welsh patients get the standard of health care that they deserve and need.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

7. What discussions he has had with Cabinet Office Ministers and the Electoral Commission on administrative management of the forthcoming elections in Wales to the European Parliament.

[The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

Wales Office Ministers have discussed the administration of the forthcoming elections to the European Parliament with both the Electoral Commissioner for Wales, and the cities and constitution Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Tunbridge Wells (Greg Clark).

[Jonathan Edwards]

As the Secretary of State knows, the chief executive of Carmarthenshire county council is not at his desk because of a criminal investigation following a damning Wales Audit Office report into unlawful payments. However, he retains responsibility for the forthcoming European elections as local returning officer. Indeed, if memory serves me correctly, he was a deputy for the whole of Wales at the last European elections. Will the Secretary of State discuss urgently with the Cabinet Office the need for statutory protocol for removing electoral duties from public officials who are suspended from their everyday roles?

[Mr Jones]

As the hon. Gentleman says, an investigation is currently being conducted by the police. The Government’s priority is, of course, to ensure the smooth running of the European elections. The Cabinet Office is responsible for that and is keeping a close eye on the situation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

On the contrary, as my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) has just pointed out, the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act has put a great deal more power into the hands of customers. It has also done a great deal to repair the damage that was done under the last Labour Administration.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Many of my constituents continue to be affected by the interest rate swap scandal, when banks were deliberately targeting businesses, and wrecking lives and real economic activity. My constituents Mr and Mrs Bartels, for instance, were deliberately bankrupted by Barclays. What can the Secretary of State do to support the excellent work of the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and the all-party parliamentary group on interest rate swap mis-selling to secure justice for Welsh businesses that have been ripped off by exploitative banks?

[Mr Jones]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman: my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) has indeed done a great deal. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to write to me about the individual case that he mentioned, I will investigate it further.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 20th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

We have no plans to change the name of the Welsh Assembly.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

In Monday’s statement, the Secretary of State closely tied in borrowing powers with the income tax sharing arrangement between the UK and the Welsh Government. Will he confirm that the proposed sunset clause on the referendum has been dropped?

[Mr Jones]

We have no proposals to put a sunset clause in the Bill.

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Monday 18th November 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

We shall consider that interesting suggestion.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Over recent months, the Tories in the Senedd and the Liberal Democrats have pledged to alter individual tax bands should they form the next Welsh Government. Would not those specific pledges be undeliverable due to the lockstep that the Secretary of State has announced today?

[Mr Jones]

Yes.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

There were modest improvements recently, but it is the case that the Welsh Assembly Government should give serious consideration to reinstating a body like the Welsh Development Agency, which was so successful.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Wales urgently needs job creation levers to boost our economy, as the Council for Economic Renewal said today. Last week, in an interview with Adrian Masters of ITV Cymru Wales, the Prime Minister refused to commit to a response from the UK Government to part 1 of the Silk commission before next year’s Scottish referendum. Why are the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister holding back the Welsh economy?

[Mr Jones]

As I have just said, the Welsh economy is growing. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we recently held a consultation on the devolution of stamp duty land tax. We are considering the responses and will make a formal response in due course.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 15th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman should also commend Welsh businesses, which are increasing the number of their employees, but certainly I am happy to commend initiatives by the Welsh Government. His point highlights the importance of the UK and Welsh Governments working closely together. That is something that we are prepared to do, and I expect to see reciprocation from the Welsh Government.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The UK Government-sponsored Silk commission recommended empowering the Welsh Government and Welsh local authorities with fiscal responsibility to incentivise economic development. Why were these recommendations not included in the Finance Bill or the Queen’s Speech in a Government of Wales Bill?

[Mr Jones]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Silk proposals are still under consideration by the UK Government. We have always made it absolutely clear that we will announce our response to Silk this spring, so we will issue that response in the next few weeks.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 16th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The Wales Office and the MOD are keenly aware of the importance of the defence industry to the economy of this country, and the hon. Lady is right to say that it makes a significant fiscal contribution. That is why I was extremely pleased to visit EDGE UK last year and see it making such a huge contribution to the economy in that part of Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The MOD has disclosed that on safety grounds it has ruled out Devonport as a suitable relocation site for Trident following Scottish independence. Is the Secretary of State as surprised as I am that the First Minister is making a case for Milford Haven, when the MOD has not undertaken any safety assessment of the casualty rate in south-west Wales following a strategic attack or a Trident-related accident?

[Mr Jones]

I think the MOD is extremely satisfied with the facilities offered to the Trident fleet and Faslane, and expects to be based there for the foreseeable future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The First Minister’s position is a matter for him, but Paul Silk makes it clear that the commission recommended the devolution of income tax-varying powers within different bands, subject to agreement between the Welsh and the British Governments on issues such as funding. That matter must continue to be looked at.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that those who argue that Wales does not have the tax base to partially devolve income tax are fiscally illiterate?

[Mr Jones]

I do not know whether I would go that far, but clearly there is an argument to be made, and it is under consideration.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 27th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The Government are very closely engaged with the steelmaking industry via UK Trade and Investment, and I would reiterate the point that, given the news we heard yesterday, it is extremely important that the Welsh Assembly Government should work closely with UKTI to foster that industry.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the Minister agree that one of the major challenges facing the Welsh economy is the deficit in exports generated in Wales and imported goods and services from other states, as well as from within the UK? What discussions is the Minister having with Cabinet colleagues and the Welsh Government to expand and diversify the Welsh export base—in particular in manufacturing, once a great strength of the Welsh economy?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely right to point that out. Over the next few weeks there will be an enormous opportunity for Welsh industry in the shape of the British business embassy, which exporters and importers from all over the world will be attending. I understand that the Welsh Assembly Government are now engaging, albeit tentatively, with that embassy, but I urge them to do more.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

9. What discussions she has had on Barnett consequentials to Wales for High Speed 2.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have had recent discussions with ministerial colleagues in Her Majesty’s Treasury on a range of issues, including funding for Wales.

[Jonathan Edwards]

HS2 is clearly an England-only project, yet the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said last week in answer to a question that I had tabled that Barnett consequentials would be decided after “budgeting and funding arrangements” had been completed. Will the Minister ensure that Wales does not lose out on the £1.9 billion that it should receive as a result of HS2, by securing guarantees that the project will be funded via a stream that results in Barnett consequentials? [Interruption.]

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 23rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman will have heard my previous answers on this question. I urge him also to contribute to that consultation, and no doubt he will participate in the debate this afternoon.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

It is estimated that the SME sector accounts for 90% of employment in Wales. What discussions has the Minister had with the Welsh Government about promoting this vital sector?

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is entirely correct. As I have said, the SME sector is the backbone of the Welsh economy. We have regular discussions with the Welsh Government. In fact, I am meeting the appropriate Welsh Minister next Monday for that purpose.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 12th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr David Jones]

In all pithiness, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) that enterprise zones are key to economic development, and I regret that the Welsh Assembly Government have still not clarified their intentions in that regard.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Lloyds TSB’s Wales business activity index for September reported the sharpest decrease in private sector employment for 27 months. What specific countervailing measures is the Minister arguing for with the Treasury to give the Welsh economy a competitive edge?

[Mr Jones]

I am sure that, like me, the hon. Gentleman will welcome today’s announcement of sector-based work academies. That will apply to the whole United Kingdom, including Wales. It will give young jobseekers the tools that they need to find employment more easily.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 8th December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

The Government do indeed recognise the importance of PCSOs, but the employment of them must be a matter for individual police forces. The right hon. Gentleman will be aware that the policing settlement is due shortly.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

The chief constable of Dyfed-Powys police recently wrote to me outlining the fact that the consequence of the comprehensive spending review for the force would be at least a 20% cut in real terms—a £10 million loss to the budget. With 83% of costs relating to staffing, will that inevitably lead to cuts in front-line policing and a reduction in the quality of service provided in the communities I represent?

[Mr Jones]

Again, I have to say that the issue of staffing must be one for individual police forces. The Government are trying to be sensitive about the cuts that are necessary as a consequence of the appalling economic legacy that has been left to the country by the Labour party.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jonathan Edwards and David Jones

Wednesday 3rd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Jones]

Yes, indeed. Both the interests of justice and the interests of taxpayers’ money will be fully considered.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

2. What discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Government policy on the funding for the National Assembly for Wales determined in the comprehensive spending review.