Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Jonathan Davies and Chris Bryant

Consideration of Lords message
Wednesday 14th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

The first thing to say to the right hon. Lady is that I completely stand by everything I said to the Select Committee yesterday. I do believe that the best form of AI will be intelligent artificial intelligence. And just like any pipe, what comes out of it depends on what goes into it. If we have high-quality data going into AI, then it will produce high-quality data at the other end. I have spoken to quite a lot of publishing houses in the UK, including Taylor & Francis in particular—

[Jonathan Davies (Mid Derbyshire) (Lab)]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Bryant]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that there are works out there that have been created with the use of AI. As I have said several times, I have never thought that the creative industries are in any sense luddite; I have always thought that they are at the forefront of innovation in so many areas—at the Select Committee yesterday I referred to Fra Angelico. This is true of every creative industry: they have to innovate in order to succeed. A video games company would say that it is using AI all the time, not necessarily to save money but to improve the product and be at the cutting edge of what they are doing. Even Björn from ABBA has said that he has been using AI because it enhances his work.

One area that is in our consultation but is yet to be addressed by anybody in any of the debates I have heard in this House or the other place is this: what we do about the copyright status of works that are solely or largely created by AI, because it is a moot point what we should do about it under existing law? My point is simply that we need to address all these issues in the round rather than piecemeal, and I will come on to that in more substance in a moment.

[Jonathan Davies]

The Minister is being very generous with his time. Central to what he is saying is transparency. Does he agree that enforceable transparency obligations would reduce legal uncertainty, deter infringement by increasing the legal risk to AI developers, and enable faster redress by allowing the courts to establish precedent where copyright is breached?

Data (Use and Access) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Jonathan Davies and Chris Bryant

Wednesday 7th May 2025 Commons Chamber

[Chris Bryant]

No, I have not—my hon. Friend has not missed anything. Obviously, we want to respond as soon as possible, but we have 11,500 consultation responses to consider.

Some issues have hardly been referred to in the public debate on this matter. One issue that Equity is understandably pursuing, and that we referred to in the consultation, is about personality rights, which exist in some states in the United States of America. That is quite complicated to legislate for, which is one of the reasons we have consulted on it.

We have also consulted on the question—again, nobody has referred to this in the public debate—of whether a work that is generated by AI has any copyright attached to it. If so, who owns that copyright? It is slightly moot in British law. One could argue that British copyright law has always presumed that copyright applies only where a work is the expression of an individual, so it does not apply to AI-generated material, but there are other elements. Section 9(3) of the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988 says that machine-generated material can have copyright attached to it, which is one of the other issues that we want to address.

As I said earlier, one of the issues to which nobody has yet come up with an answer is how we will provide proper enforcement of whatever transparency requirements we propose. I am conscious that in discussions I have had with our European counterparts, including my Spanish counterpart and members of the European Commission, there has been some concern about precisely what they will do by virtue of transparency. This issue is made more complicated by the advent of DeepSeek—for a whole series of different reasons, which I am happy to explain at some other point—but we need to end up with a transparency system that is both effective and proportionate. Simply dumping a list of millions and millions of URLs that have been visited on the internet is neither effective nor proportionate, so we will have to come up with something.

[Jonathan Davies (Mid Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Does the Minister envisage that any model of enforcement around transparency will be compulsory and not a voluntary system?

[Chris Bryant]

By its nature, enforcement would have to be compulsory, but we are running ahead of ourselves, because nobody has actually come up with a system that has an enforcement mechanism. Who would do it? What body would do it? How would that body be resourced? That is one of the things that we need to look into, and it is one of the elements of the consultation.

I will move on to another subject: the issue of purported intimate images. Government amendment 34 deals with the creation of intimate images or deepfakes. Earlier in the Bill’s passage, my colleague Lord Ponsonby added a new offence of creating purported intimate images without consent or reasonable belief in consent, and I am sure all hon. Members agree that this is a really important addition. In Committee, we introduced the offence of requesting the creation of purported images without consent or reasonable belief in consent, as hon. Members who were on the Public Bill Committee with me will know. It seems axiomatic that the courts should have the power to deprive offenders of the image and anything containing it that relates or is connected to the offence. This is already the case for the creating offence, which was introduced in the House of Lords. Government amendment 34 amends the sentencing code to achieve that for the requesting offence. It ensures that the existing regime of court powers to deprive offenders of property also applies to images and devices containing the image that relate to the requesting offence.

We have tabled a series of amendments to clauses 56 to 59 to reflect our discussions with the devolved Governments on the national underground asset register. The amendments will require that the Secretary of State to obtain the consent of Welsh Ministers and the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, rather than merely consult them, before making regulations in relation to the provisions. Co-operation with the devolved Governments has been consistent and constructive throughout the Bill’s passage. We have secured legislative consent from Scotland, and the Senedd in Wales voted in favour of granting the Bill legislative consent only yesterday. We regret that for procedural reasons, the process with Northern Ireland has not yet reached the stage of legislative consent. We are, however, working constructively with the Department of Finance to ensure that we can make progress as quickly as possible. We continue to work closely with the Northern Ireland Executive to secure legislative consent, and to ensure that citizens and businesses of Northern Ireland feel the full benefits of the Bill.

Before I finish, I turn to our amendments to help ensure that smart data schemes can function optimally, and that part 1 of the Bill is as clear as possible. Amendments to fee charging under clauses 11 and 15 follow extensive stakeholder engagement, and will maximise the commercial viability of smart data systems by enabling regulations to make tailored provision on fee charging within each smart data scheme. For example, amendments 19 to 21 enable the fees charged to exceed expenses where appropriate. This is necessary to fulfil the commitment in the national payments vision to establish a long-term regulatory framework for open banking. Outside smart data, Government amendment 35

“adds references to investigating crime to existing references in the Data Protection Act 2018 to detecting or preventing crime”,

which will bring these references into line with other parts of the legislation.

Edinburgh Festivals: Cultural and Economic Contribution

Debate between Jonathan Davies and Chris Bryant

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Westminster Hall

[The Minister for Creative Industries, Arts and Tourism (Chris Bryant)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Efford. I should point hon. Members to the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, because I was paid by the Edinburgh book festival a year ago. I note that nobody else has had that to point out.

I will start by paying tribute, as many others have, to Shona McCarthy. She has done a phenomenal job over nine years. She has taken the festival through some of its most difficult moments, and it is striking that 2.6 million people bought tickets this year, which is the fourth highest number in its 77 years. That is absolutely brilliant, and we wish her well.

The Minister—I am sorry, I meant the shadow Minister. We keep on doing this because we are not used to it. I do not think the shadow Minister said that the joke he told was by Mark Simmons—he should attribute jokes. Simmons also had the no. 5 joke, which was:

“I love the Olympics. My friend and I invented a new type of relay baton: well, he came up with the idea, I ran with it.”

[Laughter.] Yes, it was terrible, wasn’t it?

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh (Chris Murray). It is great to have a lot of new friends, especially from Scotland, and we are delighted to see Edinburgh so well represented. I will try an innovative thing, which is to answer the questions that have been asked as much as I can.

My hon. Friend asked about multi-annual financial planning. In so far as we possibly can, we want to be able to give economic stability to arts organisations, just as we do to local authorities in many other parts of the economy. That is one of the things we are driving towards in the spending review. However, I am afraid I must point him to the fact that there will be a Budget at the end of the month, and I can hear my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in the back of my ear already saying, “That’s far enough, Bryant!”

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh asked about cross-UK engagement. I want to make this absolutely clear: I do not want to engage in any kind of cultural battles with Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales. We should be seeing this as a joint venture. The creative industries are a part of what defines this nation across the world, and we will only do well if we work together to achieve the best outcomes for performers, people who might become performers and the industry as a whole.

My hon. Friend makes a good point about visas. I will take that away and think about how we could work most creatively with the Home Office to make sure we get this right. It is not just about people coming into the UK; I also argue that it is about UK acts being able to tour in Europe. I was absolutely delighted earlier this year to go and see Depeche Mode in Cologne. I have never seen Germans so excited; they just can’t get enough. [Laughter.] Thank you.

My hon. Friend made an important point about crisis support. I am worried about the situation that arose, in particular, for the book festival and Baillie Gifford. He makes a fair point about whether that is the right way to go about making important points about climate change. One of the things we need to do as a Department is look at the whole package of the whole funding of all the arts and creative industries, which used to come from five or six different segments, including local government, which was prominent in that when we were in power before 2010. Most of that funding has completely gone, and philanthropy is struggling outside London and the south-east. We need to look at this in the round.

It is great to see the Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Gosport (Dame Caroline Dinenage), in her place, as she always is—she was in your place earlier for a previous debate, Mr Efford. She makes very good points about short lets. The legislation already in place for England and Wales, for which we are now considering how we will implement and take forward secondary legislation, would not apply in Scotland. However, we want to learn some of the lessons of what has happened in Scotland so that we can apply sensible legislation in England and Wales. I thought her point about co-operation was very well made—my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East and Musselburgh made that point as well. It is not just about us: there is a Government in Scotland, and it is also about local government across the whole of the UK. In England, I would argue that it is also about regional mayors, who play a very important part in the creative industries.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Dr Arthur) referred to quieter parts of the year. It is a very well-made point. I would also argue that there is an issue about quieter parts of the country. It is all very well getting all the tourists to come to London, Oxford, Cambridge, Stratford, Bath and Edinburgh, but if they do not also go to other places—Stirling, I know, has a very fine castle, because I danced the Highland fling in it when I was 12, I think. Making sure that the benefits accrue to the whole of Scotland and to the wider economy is a really important part of what we need in our tourism strategy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West also made a good point about a tourism career. That is something we need to take far more seriously as a country. Why is it that somebody who works in a bar in Paris, or in a restaurant in France, Spain, or wherever, thinks that is a career for life, whereas we think it is somehow a demeaning job, which it is not? We need to completely transform that if we are to transform our tourism opportunities so that we get more than 32 million people coming to the UK.

The omnipresent hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made important points about Northern Ireland performers—some of the best comedians we have known over the years—coming to Edinburgh and getting an opportunity, and about other festivals. Trying to get the economic possibility for festivals to flourish goes back to the point I was trying to make about the whole package of finances available.

My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Jonathan Davies)—a former music teacher, no less— made very good points about other festivals. I am not sure about the Gilbert and Sullivan festival—I am worried now that I might get into trouble. I just remember that line from “Trial by Jury”: “She might very well pass for 42, in the dark, with the light behind her”—

[Jonathan Davies]

“In the dusk”.