Elected Mayors

John Stevenson Excerpts

Wednesday 27th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)]

I am grateful, Mr Robertson, for the opportunity to debate what I believe is the very significant issue of elected mayors. It is a topic that, to all intents and purposes, flies below the radar. However, it has the potential to affect our democracy profoundly, not only at the local level but at the national level, in what I would like to think is a positive way. The number of Members here for this debate demonstrates that the topic is flying below the radar and yet, as I say, it could have a profound effect on our constituencies up and down the country.

At present, there are 13 elected mayors. They affect at least 50 constituencies and if there are a further 12 elected mayors, as proposed by the Government, another 50 to 100 constituencies would have an elected mayor in their area, affecting local politics and their debates. That would make a total of 150 constituencies, and if we reach that point there may be a critical mass.

The idea of a mayor is extremely well established, not only in this country but all over the world. However, in most respects there is a huge difference between our style of mayors and those in other countries. Our tradition is very much one of having a ceremonial mayor who carries out civic duties. Quite often the post is held by a councillor, usually in the last year of their term in office and who therefore is coming to the end of their career.

In most other countries that have mayors, however, the mayors exercise varying degrees of executive authority. In those countries, the large cities often have executive mayors, with the obvious examples coming from the United States, where the major cities, including New York and Chicago, traditionally all have mayors with executive powers. We can also look to our Commonwealth countries, such as Australia and New Zealand, or to other European cities, many of which have mayors who are executive and not ceremonial in the way that ours are. Often those mayors are seen as an integral component of local democracy. The most recent example of the election of a new mayor was in Wellington in New Zealand. That election was an extremely closely-fought battle, with the count going on for a number of days after the election was over. As a result, a great deal of publicity was generated. Therefore, I see no reason why mayors with real executive powers cannot become part of our democratic landscape and, in the time-honoured British fashion, become a traditional part of our democracy.

For completeness, I just want to cover the recent origins of the elected mayor concept in Britain. The idea was first introduced by the Labour Government under the Local Government Act 2000, which allowed local authorities to instigate a referendum for an elected mayor by means of a simple resolution of the council. The Act also allowed local residents to petition for a referendum. When local residents wanted to do that, they needed 5% of the electorate to sign that petition and only then would the council be duty-bound to instigate such a referendum.

That was the situation in 2000 but it was altered by the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007, which allowed councils to introduce the new mayoral system by passing a simple resolution and without the requirement to hold a referendum. However, to achieve that there would need to be a two-thirds majority on the council in favour of that resolution. That Act also stated that there should be no more than one referendum in any 10-year period.

I genuinely believe that, back in 2000, the Labour Government wanted the idea of elected mayors to catch on and become widespread. I believe that they thought that the idea of elected mayors was an opportunity to transform local government and they thought that such a transformation would happen. I also believe that they thought that elected mayors would become commonplace and that by now we would have many mayors up and down the country. In 2006, they actually expressed their disappointment that that had not happened.

So what success has there been? To be entirely honest, even as somebody who fully supports the concept of elected mayors, I must accept that the answer is that success has been very mixed. Since 2000, there have been 37 mayoral referendums. Of those 37 referendums, there was a yes vote in 13 with a no vote in the remainder. There are two possible reasons why that has been the case. First, is the fact that only a third of those referendums have been successful an indication that overall people are against the idea of elected mayors? Secondly and quite simply, there have been only 37 referendums, when there could have been up to 400, or at least 100 to 200, if the idea of elected mayors had taken hold. Therefore I must accept that the number of referendums that we have had is a bit of a disappointment, and that, of those that we have had, only a third have come up with an affirmative answer.

I acknowledge that the idea of elected mayors has had a mixed start, but I believe that there are obvious reasons for that, many of which can be overcome. Quite simply, at the outset the Blair Government did not push the idea of elected mayors in the way that I thought they would. I do not know what the internal politics of the Labour party or the Labour Government were at that time, whether people felt that it was not the right idea and it was consequently put on the backburner, but I genuinely believe that the Blair Government wanted the idea of elected mayors to succeed. However, for whatever reason they did not push the idea at that time and to all intents and purposes they lost interest in it. I also think that, at that time, none of the national parties—Conservative, Labour or the Liberal Democrats—were actively engaged in promoting the idea of elected mayors, although I think that that attitude has begun to change.

What is probably the most important factor of all is that there has been local opposition to the idea of elected mayors, coming from local parties of all persuasions, many—although I hasten to add not all—councillors and quite often from council leaders, local opposition leaders and indeed chief executives and senior officers on councils. Together, those people quite often stymie the hope of having referendums and particularly the hope of having successful referendums. Quite often, the lack of publicity about the idea of elected mayors, which in turn has prevented a proper debate about elected mayors and their genuine pros and cons, has reduced the success rate that I like to think could have been achieved. Finally, the threshold for a petition for a referendum is set at too high a level, at 5% of those on the electoral register. That is just one of the issues that I will ask the Minister to address when he responds to this debate.

As I have said, however, matters are starting to change. The London mayoralty has undoubtedly boosted the concept of elected mayors and credit for that has to go to both Ken Livingstone and Boris Johnson. They have raised the profile of the idea of elected mayors. It affects London, but I think that it is now permeating out to the rest of the country. People see them as national figures as well as a figure for the city of London. I genuinely believe that this new Government are also starting to take a lead on this issue and I hope that the Minister will confirm that when he replies. Through Boris Johnson and Ken Livingstone, the London mayoralty, and the various elections up and down the country, there is growing interest in the idea of elected mayors in both local and national media, and also among local politicians and local people. Middlesbrough and Hartlepool are obvious examples of places with high-profile mayors who have made a difference. Furthermore, those voting in the recent referendum in Tower Hamlets chose to go down the route of having an elected mayor, which I hope is an indicator of the future, although I must say that there was a very interesting election in Tower Hamlets thereafter. However, other people can comment on the merits of that.

Circumstances have now changed and with increased awareness of the idea of elected mayors, among the public and at Government level, we have a real chance to change things. However, before I refer to the many advantages that I believe elected mayors would bring to our democracy, I will touch on some very basic reasons why change in local government governance is both desirable and necessary. Our present local government system was set up in the 1970s. Time has moved on and we now live in a very different world. Technology has also moved on, including the development of 24-hour media, as have people’s expectations. Clearer and quicker decision making is now a necessity and, in many respects, it is part of everyday life. There have been changes to the way that councils run. We now have executives and scrutiny panels. However, I do not think that those changes actually go far enough to reflect the modern world and the way that we deal with things now. Given that background, elected mayors would help modernise local government enormously, and there are many clear-cut advantages to having them. They are open and transparent. Local people, not councillors, choose in an election who they want as their local democratic leader. It might not always give the result that we as politicians want, but that is what democracy is all about.

Elected mayors provide greater accessibility. It is obvious who is in charge. The mayor carries the responsibility for running the council and cannot hide behind the machinations of local politics. Four-year terms also go some way to help, as they give the individual time to implement programmes properly. It is interesting that a number of mayors, particularly independents, are being re-elected at the end of their four-year term. A mayor brings strong leadership—not always, but in most cases. Mayors have the authority to get on and do things in their local community. They also provide visible and clear leadership, which goes a long way to improve the clarity of decision making.

Ironically, having more elected mayors could enhance the role of councillors. I would like to think that there would be fewer of them. To take my county of Cumbria as an example, we have six district councils, one county council, one national park and 400 councillors to represent only 500,000 people. Clearly, if elected mayors were accepted in my part of the world, fewer councillors would be needed, but their role would be greatly improved. Some would still be involved with executive authority in the mayor’s cabinet, but that would enhance their scrutiny of the mayor. It would also allow councillors to be more critical of a mayor from their own party, because they would not be bound by the three-line whip in quite the same way as under the present regime.

Mayoral elections to date have illustrated that mayors can bring personality as well as party politics into play. Again, that reflects the modern age. Personality is already a huge part of our democratic process, as evidenced clearly by the leadership debates during the general election. If ever there were a case of personality politics, that was it. Arguably, the same thing goes on with MPs up and down the country. Personalities matter, and I think that they bring something to the political system. Interestingly, of the 13 elected mayors, three are Conservative, three are Labour, two are Liberal Democrat, one is English Democrat and four are independent. That reflects the huge role that party politics will still play. Parties will still be the dominant force behind elected mayors, but the role allows room for independence, which reflects to a certain extent the politics that people want now. The evidence suggests and the experience in other countries reflects that main parties will still dominate mayoral politics, but there is room for others to get involved. That could make politics, particularly local politics, far more interesting and reconnect politicians with the general public. In many respects, it would be direct democracy.

Overall, in my view, elected mayors will bring better governance to local authorities, but could also affect national politics in time, effectively creating greater movement between national and local politics. A mayor with executive experience running a major authority could bring a lot to Parliament and national Government. Equally, a national politician could bring national experience and standing if elected as mayor of one of our major cities.

To summarise my view of the advantage of elected mayors, I quote the words of Michael Heseltine:

“To create dynamic local leadership and to attract high-calibre individuals, we believe that directly elected executive mayors for…authorities is the best governance model”.

Ultimately, what matters to the public is effective democratic leadership. Although executive mayors have been going for only a short period and there are only 13 of them, the evidence suggests that they have been a success and have made a difference in many cases. They are far better known than their predecessors the council leaders, their councils often have higher profiles and they often campaign on their own initiatives, which they subsequently implement as mayors.

However, it is the future that matters. I welcome this Government’s approach to local government and their move to decentralise and return power and responsibility to local authorities and communities. We are a hugely over-centralised country, so the forthcoming decentralisation and localism Bill is welcome news. There is momentum for change not just here in Westminster but in all other parts of the country, and I certainly view localism as a way forward. Elected executive mayors can play a significant role in the localism agenda. My questions to the Minister therefore involve that issue, and I hope that he will give me a positive response.

The Government propose a potential 12 new elected mayors. What about York, Chester, Blackpool and my own constituency, Carlisle? Why should they not also be involved and have the opportunity to decide whether they want an elected mayor? Places with strong identities that might benefit greatly from an elected mayor will be omitted. Is the Minister willing to extend the number of places where referendums will be held and elected mayors will be possible?

What additional powers is the Minister willing to pass to such mayors? Are they to be glorified council leaders, or can we give them extra powers such as appointments to local bodies or additional tax-raising powers? Where a mayor is elected, will the Minister consider the size and role of the council? It appears sensible to reduce the number of councillors while giving them an enhanced role in scrutiny and more generally. Will the Government be considering that? These matters are being handled by politicians, but what about the people? Will the Minister reduce the number of local people required to petition for a referendum from 5% to 2%? That would allow individuals in places where local politicians are preventing a referendum the opportunity to petition and campaign for one.

Generally, do the Government want elected mayors established throughout the country? If that comes to pass, it will transform British politics in ways that many of us do not realise and which have a profound effect not just locally but nationally. The Government say that they are committed to localism. I hope that they are also committed to changing the governance of our local authorities through elected mayors. We now have an opportunity to create a renaissance in local government. As part of that, the time has finally come for elected mayors. I hope that the Minister will give me that confidence and assurance.

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[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) on securing the debate. It is only proper that I should declare an interest in the sense that I am, and will remain for a few months longer, an elected member of North East Lincolnshire unitary council. As background information, I should say that I have served as a councillor for 25 years—and it don’t seem a day too long. I have served both in a two-tier system as a former member of Grimsby borough council and, more recently—in fact, for the past 11 years—as a representative on North East Lincolnshire council. That experience has certainly taught me that single-tier authorities are ultimately the way forward and that they should be led by elected mayors.

[John Stevenson]

Does my hon. Friend think that we should ultimately move to unitary authorities across the country and get rid of the two-tier system? That would allow elected mayor systems to develop in the various unitary authorities.

[Martin Vickers]

That is my personal preference. I accept the fact that there are geographical difficulties in large counties, in the sense that individuals find it more difficult to become local personalities when parts of the county could be 70 or 80 miles apart. For example, within Lincolnshire county council, the distance from Gainsborough in the north to Spalding in the south is about 60 or 70 miles. I can understand the difficulties, although far be it for me to suggest that Lincolnshire should be broken up into unitaries. That debate is for another day.

As politicians, we are here to articulate the concerns of our local communities. In recent years, there has been much talk of new politics. In the same way as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, “new” can mean whatever an individual chooses it to mean. However, we can transform politics by introducing more direct elections. As my hon. Friend said, there will be personality contests—he mentioned the Boris versus Ken show, which transfixed the nation—and whether we like it or not, personalities have always played a major role in politics. Leadership, in part, results from the individual personality of the person concerned.

I welcome the fact that moves are being made to introduce elected mayors into our big cities; but, like my hon. Friend, I would like to know why it is only happening in those places. In Lincolnshire—in the provincial towns of Cleethorpes, Grimsby and so on—we think that the big cities get more than their fair share as it is. We would like another advocate for our communities, and perhaps elected mayors in provincial areas, working in tandem with Members of Parliament, would be more of a thorn in the side of Governments, of whatever complexion, and we hope that that would be beneficial to local communities.

Much is made of the potential downsides of having elected mayors, such as the possibility that extremists would be elected, but why do we assume that the electorate would vote for extremists? The British people, on the whole, are moderate in their political views, and there is no real evidence that extremists would be elected. If they were, they would soon be found out and lose favour with the electorate. With regard to claims that individuals could be corrupt, I am sure that sufficient reserve powers could be included in any Bill to take care of that.

We have an opportunity to give our politics back to the people by having more direct elections. We need to break down the barriers. As both Members who have spoken in the debate acknowledged, there is an inertia in local authorities, and most councillors are particularly opposed to the concept of elected mayors because that would break down the rather cosy current arrangements. From the general public’s point of view, that is exactly what should happen; we need to break down those cosy arrangements and bring in people who truly represent their communities. We need more individuals to be elected as party candidates through open primaries, bringing more people into the electorate’s choice. We need to reduce dramatically the threshold for initiating a referendum. Councils should still have the opportunity to initiate a referendum, but we need to make it much easier for the population at large to kick-start that process.

There is a fair amount of unanimity in the debate, and I agree that the present arrangements for scrutiny within councils have not worked. That is understandable, as back-bench councillors, under the present cabinet arrangements, really have only one opportunity to speak on behalf of their constituents, so they use meetings that should be for scrutinising the executive to bring up, for example, why the bus stop in the high street has been moved. I do not blame them for that, as I have done it myself. The proposal for directly elected mayors is an opportunity to transform local government, and I hope that the Minister will offer my hon. Friend and I some encouraging words.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) on securing the debate, which has been interesting, although sparsely attended, and I have enjoyed the contributions immensely. He summarised effectively the background to the present situation and the previous Government’s proposals on executive mayors, as set out in the Local Government Act 2000 and the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Act 2007. I agree with his comments on an enhanced role for councillors. Perhaps I should declare an interest, as I am still an elected member of Derby city council, which is a unitary authority. Having been a councillor for nearly 20 years, I absolutely believe that it is fundamentally important that we enhance the role of local councillors. I am not sure about his support for personality politics, which occasionally creeps into our political system. I think that politics should be more about values and what we stand for when we run for political parties or as independents, rather than the cult of personality.

[John Stevenson]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but does not he agree that personality politics has already entered our political system as a result of the televised leadership debates that were introduced in the run-up to the general election? The personalities of the leaders dominated the headlines for days.

[Chris Williamson]

Indeed, I do agree, but in a way that supports my point, because to some extent that obscured the policies and values that the political parties represented. It was more about the individuals who were speaking in those television debates. To some extent that is regrettable, but perhaps it was inevitable, now that the genie is out of the bottle.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned localism, which is something I support, so long as it is democratic localism. I do not like the notion of locally elected institutions being bypassed. People understand local authorities, and I would like more powers to be vested in them, rather than for their current duties to pass, for example, to the voluntary sector.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South (Sir Peter Soulsby) has extensive experience in local government and is highly respected in that world. He represented Leicester as the leader of the council with great credit for many years. He referred to the need for improved scrutiny, and I agree that there could be some improvements, but it is important to note that the previous Government did extend the scope of scrutiny. Part of the problem is the time required to fulfil the scrutiny role effectively, because most councillors hold down full-time jobs, so perhaps we should look at the time made available to them to fulfil that role. That comes to the thorny question of allowances, because unless people have substantial means or are retired, they will find it difficult to spend the necessary time to make scrutiny as effective as it could be.

[Chris Williamson]

My hon. Friend makes a pertinent point, with which I agree entirely. In many local authorities, such scrutiny has been seen as something of a poor relation, so he is right that it is essential that it is adequately resourced. In a context of squeezed budgets, however, that can be difficult, but it is a valid point nevertheless and something that local authorities must take on board.

The hon. Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) referred to single-tier authorities. Support for the notion of single-tier authorities is growing, and I am sure that he will be somewhat disappointed by the Minister’s recent decision to reject the application of Exeter and Norwich to become unitary authorities. Given his experience in local government, the hon. Gentleman probably understands better than most the benefits that flow from such an authority. His comments on extremists were well made. It is up to the main political parties to ensure, when a mayoral election takes place, that we reach out and get our message out to the general public and persuade them to support the mainstream and progressive values that we represent, certainly on this side of the Chamber. If we can get our message out effectively, we can overcome the threat posed by extremists. That threat is posed only where turnouts are low, so it is vital that we engage with people in the political process to ensure a reasonably good turnout. If we can improve turnouts, the extremists will fall by the wayside.

In my view it is abundantly clear that since the general election the Government’s policy on elected mayors has turned into something of a Brian Rix farce. Earlier this month, the Minister was caught, metaphorically, with his trousers down when he told the media that current council leaders would be transmogrified into executive mayors by order of the Secretary of State. He said that that would be followed by a “confirmatory referendum”. Just a fortnight ago, he told the Yorkshire Evening Post that the referendum question would be, “We’ve set up these things, do you want to stick with them?”

Cue the knee-jerk intervention by the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government. Following the inevitable backlash to this oxymoronic top-down approach to localism, the Secretary of State told the House of Commons last week that he had ruled out the possibility of imposing mayors. In fact, he said that it was “out of the question”. True to form, however, he went even further later the same day and indulged his penchant for overstatement by saying that he

“had in the top left-hand drawer of my office a pearl-handled revolver with which to shoot the first person to suggest a restructuring of local government. The last time I checked, the revolver was fully loaded and waiting for such a person.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 1155.]

Despite the Secretary of State’s menacing warning, the Minister seems to be alive and well, and it looks as if he has had a lucky escape.

To be serious for a moment, this past fortnight clearly illustrates that the Government’s policy on elected mayors is in complete disarray. We have the Secretary of State threatening to shoot anyone who proposes any form of local government reorganisation, while the Tory leader of Birmingham city council has said:

“If anything it’s a distraction to the real issues of local government.”

Then, we have the Prime Minister, who has pledged to hold mayoral referendums in 12 English cities. Furthermore, before his outburst last week, the Secretary of State himself was setting out plans for local government reorganisation. On 17 August, he told the Financial Times that he was planning to introduce executive mayors in the country’s 12 biggest cities by 2012. In a statement to the House, he said:

“We will put local councils in the driving seat to join up public services… We want elected mayors to trail-blaze such initiatives, not least since elected mayors in our cities will be embraced by the public”.—[Official Report, 11 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 3WS.]

The reality is somewhat different from the Secretary of State’s hyperbole, however. As things stand, there does not seem to be a huge appetite for executive mayors. In fact, since 2001—the hon. Member for Carlisle set out the history—24 out of 37 referendums have rejected the idea. Stoke was one of the 13 places to vote in favour of an elected mayoral system, but even there residents subsequently voted to scrap it. Will the Minister therefore clarify precisely what the Government’s latest policy position is?

[John Stevenson]

I am curious. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, and I commented on the fact that only one third of referendums for elected mayors had produced a yes result, but I would be interested to know the Labour party’s view going forward with the idea of elected mayors. Labour Members were clearly up for elected mayors back in 2000, when the Blair Government introduced the idea. As I mentioned, they thought that it would be a great success. However, I am interested in the Labour party’s view now.

[Chris Williamson]

The hon. Gentleman is right that there was a groundswell of support for elected mayors in the previous Labour Government. We introduced legislation to enable elected mayors to be introduced, and we subsequently strengthened it in 2007. As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South, a strong body of opinion in the Labour party supports elected mayors. However, it should be down to local people to decide, and we should not necessarily impose anything. At the very least, the elected members in an area should come to a view on elected mayors. Going forward, I think that that would remain our position, although we are now in opposition and we are looking at our policies. We will no doubt give this issue greater scrutiny as time goes by, but as things stand, it would be down to local people to decide what type of governance they wanted for their local authority, and I hope that that would remain the position.

Will the Minister clarify precisely what the Government’s policy position is? Will he implement the Conservative party’s manifesto pledge, which said:

“we will give the citizens in each of England’s twelve largest cities the chance of having an elected mayor.”

If the answer is yes, will he explain why the Secretary of State ruled out any local government reorganisation when he addressed the House last week? Will he give a guarantee that mayors will not be imposed in the country’s 12 largest cities without a referendum? Finally, will he concede that, in the current climate, elected mayors would be placed in an impossible position because of the unprecedented cuts in local government funding that he has signed up to? Those cuts will destroy vital public services, increase unemployment and undermine economic growth.

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[Robert Neill]

As I am a localist, I genuinely do not want to impose a blueprint on those local authorities, but the hon. Gentleman, who was himself a strong leader even before the term was invented—he was a very effective leader of Leicester city council under the previous powers—will be aware that arguments can be made in that direction. There is an opportunity for the case to be made by local authorities if they wish. Equally—this is the point that we are stressing—the decision should rest with the local people.

[John Stevenson]

The Minister touched on the point about the petition by local people. At present, 5% of electors must sign it if there is to be a referendum, but does he think that that is a prohibitively high proportion? It is quite difficult for a group of people in a locality to get together to obtain 5% support. Would not it be better to reduce that figure and thus encourage local people to petition for a referendum?

[Robert Neill]

I will consider my hon. Friend’s point. I point out that 5% would be about 4,200-odd people in Carlisle, but my hon. Friend knows the area better than I do, and I stand to be corrected. It is a moot point whether that would be an impossible threshold to reach. It is legitimate that there should be some form of threshold to provide at least some evidence of a genuine desire among the population to go down that route. There are some costs in a referendum, although that is not the biggest issue involved, so before embarking on one there should be some evidence of public support. It is possible to argue either way about the matter, and I shall think about my hon. Friend’s point.

However, it is important to be careful. There must be some safeguards in the process. I mention that in the context of the referendum in Tower Hamlets and the mayoral election there, which I believe everyone in this Chamber would agree was not the best advertisement for the mayoral model. The concern that I draw to my hon. Friend’s attention, and to the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers), who made a point about the unlikelihood of extremists being elected—I broadly agree that the electorate are generally sensible enough to see through them—is that there can be a risk of manipulation of the petition for a referendum without some proper safeguards.

In Tower Hamlets, there were some 17,000 names on the petition, easily beating the threshold, but some 6,000 were ruled invalid by the returning officer because of various blatantly fraudulent devices that had been employed to get signatures. That may not be the situation in Cleethorpes, but in some parts of the country there is a risk of pressure from individual sections of the community that may propose a petition for not entirely cohesive ends. We have to have some safeguards, but I think we can keep an open, practical mind as to the best way of dealing with the matter.

A question was raised about the important issue of mayoral powers. My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle made a fair point on that. It is important that elected mayors have all the powers that they need to lead and enhance the prestige of their cities. Mayors need to be able to make real improvements to the lives of those who live and work in their city, and to make an impact on the city’s economy and its capacity to act as an engine of growth more widely.

One of the reasons, but not the sole reason, why we proposed the 12 largest cities is that it so happens that they are all unitaries. Unitaries are not necessarily the only model, but it may be convenient, particularly at an early stage when people are not used to elected mayors, to have elected mayors in cities where the mayor has the whole range of responsibility for local government services; in that way, things could be more naturally concentrated in one person’s mind. We want to strengthen mayors’ powers, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out the kind of powers we meant in a speech during our party conference. The hon. Member for Derby North helpfully quoted what he said, so I need not repeat the kind of areas at which we are looking.

We envisage that mayors will work closely with neighbouring council leaders on issues such as transport, the strategic approach to planning, and wider economic priorities. Of course, it is important to remember that all the great cities do not live in isolation from their hinterland, whether in economic, social or simply spatial terms. Whatever happens, mayor or leader, there has to be a system such that cities can work sensibly with neighbouring authorities. The alternative would involve exactly the kind of upheaval due to further local government reorganisation and changing boundaries that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State had in mind when he referred to the armaments industry, if I can put it that way. We want to find sensible ways for mayors to work across boundaries.

My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle is a strong proponent of decentralisation, as was evidenced in his maiden speech to this House. He argued strongly that in order to improve local economies and education, we must decentralise, take decisions back to communities and allow local people to make local decisions—in simple terms, return power to people. I endorse those sentiments wholeheartedly. They form a vital part of the Government’s localism agenda. I would go further and say that creating mayors in our largest cities is a key vehicle for facilitating that much-needed decentralisation. The hon. Member for Leicester South, and my hon. Friends the Members for Carlisle, and for Cleethorpes, were hoping that the Government would endorse the idea of mayors. The Government have clearly indicated that, in the right place—it is for the people to choose what is the right place—directly elected mayors can indeed make a significant difference.

Several hon. Members raised the important issue of accountability and scrutiny. With power comes responsibility, and a crucial element of the elected mayoral model is strong and effective scrutiny of the elected mayor and his or her actions by elected councillors. Effective scrutiny will provide the means for ensuring that the electorate have detailed knowledge of their elected mayor’s policies and activities. Direct accountability and scrutiny will be enhanced by stringent transparency requirements. The Government have already announced their intentions in respect of publishing online any spend over £500. Clearly, that has to apply as much to mayor-led authorities as it does to any other authority.

The hon. Member for Leicester South made a point about the role of the back-bench councillor and ensuring that scrutiny is effective. I have a great deal of sympathy with his comments about the need to give back-bench councillors a real role in the system. I have heard from councillors of all political persuasions and none that they can feel—and perhaps, in effect, be—excluded from the decision-making process. That can happen under the leader-and-cabinet model as much as it can under a mayoral model. Whatever the system, we need to find some means of addressing that.

It is important, too, that scrutiny is genuinely effective and moves beyond post-event, post hoc scrutiny, which can be rather meaningless at the end of the day. It is important that, wherever possible, we give elected members the chance to have input in the decision-making process before decisions are completed. That is why, in the spirit of localism, we are saying that local authorities should have the ability to choose whether they stick with the leader-and-cabinet model or with a committee system. That is for them to choose, but either a leader-and-cabinet or a mayoral model can be made to work, provided they properly involve councillors. My London borough of Bromley, for example, calls its scrutiny committees “policy development and scrutiny committees”, which more closely mirrors what should happen, in terms of trying to involve members at an earlier stage of the process.

My hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle mentioned councillor numbers and asked whether we would seek to reduce the number of councillors in areas where elected mayors are in place. Once again, I refer to the comments of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State in response to a question on that issue. He stated:

“Decisions on the number of councillors in any local authority are handled by the independent Local Government Boundary Commission, in which process I have no role.”—[Official Report, 21 October 2010; Vol. 516, c. 1116.]

That is the case; Ministers do not have any role in setting either the boundaries or the number of councillors under our current arrangements. If councils wish to open up the matter of the number of members that they have, they can ask the Local Government Boundary Commission to review the authority’s ward boundaries and number of members. They do that by direct application to the commission; the process does not involve the Government, and it is probably right that there should be independence in that regard.