House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend give way?

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give way?

[Sir George Young]

No, I am going to make some more progress.

We have ended up with exactly what the Conservatives warned against at the time. As my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary said when he was Leader of the Opposition:

“if we are not careful we are going to have a House of Lords dominated by the cronies of the prime minister of the day”.

I say to Members of my own party that they cannot argue for “no stage 1 without stage 2” and then block stage 2. We have been committed to a mainly elected second Chamber since 1999 and this commitment was in our last three election manifestos.

Let me address briefly the issue of primacy, which came up repeatedly during yesterday’s debate—

[Mr Spellar]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Sir George Young]

No.

Some colleagues accept the case for reform, but are opposed to the idea of election. We heard yesterday that giving the House of Lords a more democratic mandate might somehow undermine the primacy of this House. I have never believed in the one-dimensional view of the relationship between the two Houses, in which if one Chamber gains in authority, the other must lose. That point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (John Thurso)—the only Member, incidentally, who has experience of both Houses. I have always believed that a reformed, more accountable second Chamber will strengthen Parliament as a whole. As the Wakeham report concluded:

“Our ambition for the reformed second chamber is that it should enhance the overall ability of Parliament as a whole to hold the Government to account. It should do this by using its particular strengths to develop arrangements which complement and reinforce those of the House of Commons.”

Most of the time, the Commons and the Lords are not rivals, but partners in holding the Government to account. I would argue that over the past 10 years, the House of Lords has gained in authority, not at the expense of this House, but at the expense of the Executive. I would further argue that if the legitimacy of the House of Lords were to be enhanced by the injection of some democracy, its authority would be further enhanced, not to the detriment of the Commons, but better empowering Parliament as a whole to do its job. Those who believe in a stronger Parliament should welcome, not obstruct, a more effective second Chamber.

[Mr Spellar]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Sir George Young]

I commend the right hon. Gentleman on his persistence, which is now rewarded.

[Mr Spellar]

I thank the Leader of the House for his usual courteous generosity. He claimed that what he says follows a long line of Conservative tradition, so can he explain why there is not a single Conservative Cabinet member on the Front Bench to support him?

[Sir George Young]

I now regret giving way to the right hon. Gentleman, because I am sure that there are other Members who would have made a more worthwhile point if they had intervened. Looking around, I see a large number of colleagues behind me, and I have all the support that I need.

On primacy, the fact is that Members of this House are all elected on the same day, on the basis of a party manifesto. We are elected to the pre-eminent House in Parliament—pre-eminent because it sustains the Executive, controls supply, and produces the Prime Minister. We submit ourselves for re-election, which is when the country gives a verdict on our performance. None of those conditions would apply to the second Chamber as proposed in the Bill. Elected Members would not be elected all at the same time, but over a longer period—a move supported by the Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill. The other place would have no mandate to rival the mandate of those in this House; indeed, some Members of the other place would be not elected, but appointed. The notion that they could somehow convert themselves into an equally legitimate Chamber that could challenge the authority of this House is simply far-fetched.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 17th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I commend what my hon. Friend has done, but I cannot think of anyone less like a dragon than him. It is important that schools do more to prepare children for the financial challenges in life. Some schools have started schemes whereby pupils are given a relatively small sum of money and challenged to grow it—there have been real successes from that, and there is an encouraging increase in self-employment among young people. I applaud my hon. Friend’s initiative in encouraging young people in his constituency to become attuned to financial matters, and I hope that many of them turn out to be budding entrepreneurs.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

On Tuesday, my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) raised the issue of how the principles of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 are being undermined by Criminal Records Bureau checks, because people’s lives are being blighted for ever by offences or even cautions that took place years and sometimes decades earlier, often in people’s unruly youth. In view of the utterly complacent reply my right hon. Friend received from the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), who was answering as a Minister, may we have a debate to expose and hopefully remedy this ongoing injustice?

[Sir George Young]

The rehabilitation of offenders legislation has, I believe, recently been reviewed, but I will take on board the point the right hon. Gentleman makes and see whether further tweaks are needed to ensure that people are not unjustly penalised, when they seek employment, for relatively trivial offences that happened some time ago. I will raise the matter with the Home Secretary.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about the quality of the debate in Westminster Hall last week, at the end of which the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), set out the steps that the Government are taking to promote cycling and cycling safety. I would be raising the hon. Gentleman’s hopes if I implied that his road safety Bill was likely to reach the statute book in the remaining days of this Session, but there will be an opportunity in the new Session to put forward private Members’ Bills, and I very much hope that he pursues his campaign in that context.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Today the Prime Minister is hosting the Czech Prime Minister. On 20 February, the Prime Minister posted on the No. 10 website a letter to the European Commission, signed by them and 10 other European leaders, on a plan for growth in Europe. It said, among other things :

“We should foster labour mobility to create a more integrated and open European labour market”.

May we have a debate so that Ministers can explain to the public and, indeed, to their own Back Benchers, why they think that giving away more British jobs is such a good idea?

[Sir George Young]

As I announced a few moments ago, the Prime Minister will be at the Dispatch Box on Monday after the European Council. Is the right hon. Gentleman seriously wishing to detract from the commitments made by all Governments for mobility of labour within the European Union?

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

There will be an opportunity to consider this issue when the Health and Social Care Bill returns, but my hon. Friend makes a good point: many GPs step forward to act as volunteers for the clinical commissioning groups. It seems there is a broader appetite in the country for these reforms than the impression sometimes given by the leaders of such bodies. My hon. Friend will have seen that the heads of more than 50 new doctors groups have argued that the BMA’s policy of blanket opposition fails to represent their views. I am grateful to him for making that point.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Does the Leader of the House agree that Select Committees, particularly the long-standing Public Accounts Committee, are crucial to our parliamentary system? If so, was he as concerned and alarmed as I was to see the article by Sue Cameron in today’s edition of The Daily Telegraph stating that the outgoing head of the civil service, Sir Gus O’Donnell, who staggered out the door under the weight of his pay-off and his pension, had written to the Chairman of the PAC complaining about the robust questioning of senior civil servants? Is that not an outrageous challenge to the rights of Parliament, and may we have a debate in which we can remind these arrogant mandarins that they are supposed to be civil servants, not uncivil autocrats?

[Sir George Young]

It so happens that I have read Sue Cameron’s article in The Daily Telegraph, concerning the alleged letter written by Sir Gus O’Donnell to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. [Hon. Members: “Alleged?”] I have not seen the letter. The right hon. Gentleman raises a serious point, and of course the PAC is one of the most important Select Committees in the House. As I understand it, it will be up to the PAC to decide how it wants to respond to that letter, and it may want to make a report to the House, to which the Government would respond. That is the appropriate way to take the issue forward.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 24th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I would welcome such a debate. My view is that it would be in the interest of the Labour party to have a slightly weaker link with the trade unions. I think that many Labour Members, in their heart of hearts, believe that the pension deal on the table is a generous one which they would like to commend but cannot because of the links to which my hon. Friend has just referred.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Can the Leader of the House clear up his confusion over the Queen’s Speech? He had previously said that it would be in May. It was claimed that the Fixed-term Parliaments Bill would create a more predictable parliamentary timetable, and during its passage Lord Wallace, on behalf of the Government, committed them to May-to-May Sessions. Yet last week Lord Strathclyde referred only to “spring”, which we know means, in ministerial terms, from the first crocuses in February to sometime in the middle of June. The Leader of the House can clear this up now, so will the Queen’s Speech be in May—yes or no?

[Sir George Young]

I refer to the answer that I gave to the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle); we will announce the date of the Queen’s Speech in due course. If the right hon. Gentleman can be patient, he will find that the moment will come. The Fixed-term Parliaments Act fixes the date of the next general election in May 2015—that is a fixed event. The actual date of the Queen’s Speech between now and then depends on the progress of legislation. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will use whatever influence he has in the other place to make sure that the Bills before it complete their passage in good time.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I certainly endorse the last remark. Now is not the time to go into the theology of the Wright Committee and the division of responsibilities between the Government and the Backbench Business Committee. My right hon. Friend will know that the four days for defence debates that were traditionally provided by the Government were transferred to the Backbench Business Committee. I understand why it has not been able to find time for them and, in recognition of that pressure, as he has said, we have now found a day for a debate on armed forces personnel. The Government will continue to do what they can to make sure that we do have adequate time for defence debates, and in the review of the Backbench Business Committee, I will see, in conjunction with the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel), whether we can move towards a different regime that meets the aspirations of my right hon. Friend and the responsibilities of the Backbench Business Committee.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Yesterday, in the Chamber, the Prime Minister roundly and rightly denounced metal theft. But he then went on to say:

“We are working with the Association of Chief Police Officers to put in place an action plan to deal with this, which will involve looking again at the whole regulation of scrap metal dealers.”—[Official Report, 2 November 2011; Vol. 534, c. 918.]

That is totally unsatisfactory. Everyone knows the answer—it is to license the dealers and to prevent them from dealing in cash. So can the Leader of the House arrange for a debate when that can be explored or, better still, could he use the two spare days he has created in the week after next to put it through and stop what the Prime Minister rightly called “this appalling crime”?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. It is an appalling crime and the current legislation is basically unenforceable. Dealers are meant to register with their local authority but there are no penalties if they do not do so. The Government are consulting on a range of measures, including the ones he has mentioned—the banning of cash payments, with everything being done by cheque, and having a much tougher regime. We are consulting to see whether we can have a better regime that reduces the damage done by all these thefts.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I commend the hon. Gentleman for his work in promoting the interests of those who run pubs and who often face onerous Pubco terms. I am aware of the report the hon. Gentleman mentions, which basically says that the voluntary agreement has not worked. I cannot anticipate when the Government will respond to that, but I will inform the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills of the hon. Gentleman’s appetite for an early announcement.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

On 2 December last year I put a question about Southern Cross to the Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) and received the dismissive reply that it was a matter for local authorities. I think he subsequently came to regret that response. An article in today’s Financial Times claims that from the summer of that year the chief executive of Southern Cross had been informing the Department that he wanted a meeting with the Minister in order to explain the seriousness of the problems and the possible consequences, but, again, the Minister said his diary was too full. May we have a statement from the Minister explaining his actions—or, rather, explaining his complete inertia?

[Sir George Young]

A written ministerial statement on Southern Cross was published on Monday; the right hon. Gentleman may have seen it. Because of the piece in the press today, I have made some inquiries. There have been regular constructive discussions between the Government and Southern Cross representatives since the moment it became clear that the Government were in difficulty. Ministers took the situation seriously, and they were kept fully informed. There were numerous meetings between senior Department of Health officials, the company and others, to seek to formulate a solution that protected the health and well-being of the residents. Ministers were kept fully in the picture.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 15th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. I do not know whether he was present for Transport questions earlier today and had an opportunity to raise the issue with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but I am aware of the draft directive, and will raise it with my right hon. Friend and ask him to drop the hon. Gentleman a line.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

I think it is generally agreed that the Select Committee system is increasingly showing its worth, but the Leader of the House will be aware of two emerging difficulties: the refusal of witnesses to attend, and the level of veracity of the evidence given. Will he arrange a debate to explore possible remedies, or undertake to consider the issues and report back to the House?

[Sir George Young]

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s concern, but I think the issue would be best explored in the first instance through an informal meeting between me and the Liaison Committee, as I imagine that it affects a number of Select Committees. I should be more than willing to engage in such a discussion to establish whether any further steps are necessary.

Business of the House

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Thursday 8th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. It is appalling that of the 80,000 pupils eligible for free school meals, only 40 went to Oxbridge. We are committed to enabling more people from poor and disadvantaged backgrounds to get to university by raising the maintenance grant, introducing a new national scholarship programme, and making the graduate repayment scheme much more progressive. On top of that, we are writing to sixth-formers to draw attention to the financial support that is made available to students. I hope that we can improve on the figures that I mentioned.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

Yesterday the Prime Minister told us that the extra cost of moving the election of police commissioners to November would be £25 million, yet on Tuesday, Lord McNally, in a reply to Lord Grocott, said that the cost of the alternative vote referendum, held on the same day as other elections across wide areas of the country, was £89 million—and that is without the cost that falls on the Electoral Commission. May we have a statement to clarify the real cost of this ridiculous November election and whether it will be borne by central Government and not fall on hard-pressed local councils?

[Sir George Young]

The election for police and crime commissioners is England-only, whereas the other referendum was nationwide. The £25 million figure is the correct one. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, the cost of this will not come out of the police budget.

Draft Financial Services Bill (Joint Committee)

Lord Spellar Excerpts

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Thomas Docherty]

The hon. Gentleman asks a valid question. As a new Member who unseated a former Member who had to pay back thousands of pounds, I am very much alive to these issues. I absolutely believe that if someone is forced to pay back £56,000 to which they were not entitled because they had knowingly misled the taxpayer—the Fees Office—they should be excluded from being a member of a committee that oversees the new financial services regulation. That goes to the heart of the issue. If the hon. Gentleman does not agree with me, I respect that, but I hope that he will indicate that that is his view. I do not see him indicating dissent, so I assume that he agrees.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend is focusing largely on the Commons composition of the Committee. Does he believe that the Lords composition makes it any broader or, to take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), any more representative?

[Thomas Docherty]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Jones]

The hon. Gentleman is being a bit petulant—[Interruption.] Pedantic, even. I do not understand why. In my conversations with him, we have never agreed about anything, but we usually get on quite well.

[Mr Spellar]

My hon. Friend agrees with the hon. Gentleman about his Front Benchers’ defence policy.