Ahmadi Muslims: Pakistan

Debate between John McDonnell and Stephen Hammond

Wednesday 6th September 2023 Westminster Hall

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The problem with this debate is that it has a sad, grave element of déjà vu. I have brought along my file. Some other Members who were here way back in 2014 will remember that we discussed at that time the UN rapporteur on freedom of religion and belief. I will quickly quote what he said:

“I am very concerned by the recent surge of violent attacks against Ahmadiyya Muslims by militant extremists. Such violence is fuelled by existing blasphemy legislation”.

He urged Pakistan to

guarantee the right to freedom of religion or belief”,

and went on to suggest that it should

“put in place protective measures to ensure…personal security”,

and ensure that those who perpetrate such crimes are brought to justice. That was in the report that we debated almost 10 years ago, in 2014.

Since then, we have had a litany of these debates, year after year. Soon after that report came out, a mosque was torched, and attacks and individual murders took place. That went on year after year, as reported. In 2020, as my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) said, we produced a report, “Suffocation of the Faithful: the Persecution of Ahmadi Muslims in Pakistan and the Rise of International Extremism”, and at that point we raised the issue of education.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point. We must not stop using everything in this House to continue to raise this issue. If we stop doing it and the Pakistan Government will not listen, there is no chance; at least if we continue to raise the issue of persecution, there is a chance that it can be alleviated.

[John McDonnell]

That is exactly the point that we have made consistently. Every time there is an outrage, bringing it to the Floor of the House is important, because that is noted back in Pakistan. The view now is that the pattern has been consistent, and successive Pakistani Governments have refused to budge.

There has been continuous censorship, a denial of voting rights, the ban on the publication of religious texts and imprisonment for blasphemy—three years just for an Ahmadi calling themself a Muslim. There are also the implications of what is happening in education. Numbers of people are on death row as a result of the laws that have been put in place.

Everything comes back to the pressure we can apply. Over this period, we have consistently made several demands, including that the Pakistan Government prosecute those instigating hate; offer urgent protection to Ahmadi Muslims; investigate the train of unprovoked violence; repeal the blasphemy legislation; and generally uphold rights. We have a specific role as a Government: the UK plays a specific role in relation to Pakistan. We now need to examine all points of pressure that we can exert. I do not want to be here in another 10 years debating the same issues once again.

TfL (Funding and Station Staffing)

Debate between John McDonnell and Stephen Hammond

Wednesday 15th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. Like other hon. Members, I congratulate the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) on securing this debate on Government funding for TfL and station staffing levels. Let me begin on a consensual note, because that may not carry on through my speech. As the hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) said, I often use the underground, and I did so this morning. I recognised, as I always do, the valuable role that the workers on the London underground play.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) asked whether I would tackle some of the myths and misinformation that are circulating. I hope that I will be able to reassure her—I am not sure that I will ever be able to reassure all Opposition Members—that the changes will make London underground staff more visible. They will be there to help with ticket barriers, ticket machines and platform safety in a way that has not been seen before.

[John McDonnell]

The Minister, and possibly the Mayor, might be able to convince people, but in order to convince people it is necessary to meet them. The Minister and his colleagues meet the RMT and other unions regularly. Why cannot the Mayor do so?

[Stephen Hammond]

I understand the fixation on the Mayor, because he is the leader of London. However, Mr Brown, who runs London Underground, meets the unions, and I understand that Sir Peter Hendy has done the same.

I was asked several questions, and I will try to answer some of them in the short time that I have. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington asked me about the response to a parliamentary question about the planned changes. The response stated that according to the equality impact assessment, the changes would be

“positive or neutral for all equality target groups”.—[Official Report, 6 January 2014; Vol. 573, c. 121W.]

That information was provided to us by TfL, which has also guaranteed that it will run an engagement exercise throughout this year with disabled and older people to ensure that they understand exactly how services will continue to be accessible.

The hon. Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) spoke about the great achievements of the previous Mayor, but it is important to recognise that under the current Mayor, platform staffing levels have risen by 12% and demand by 23%. The Government recognise that transport is the key to unlocking growth and jobs, and they provide the financial settlement that allows the Mayor to fulfil his responsibilities for transport and operational matters. The Government are providing more than £10 billion to TfL over the current Parliament, which includes more than £4.5 billion to support the tube upgrade. The Jubilee line upgrade has been completed. The Victoria line upgrade features new trains, tracks and signalling and a 21% increase in capacity. The Metropolitan line has a new fleet of air-conditioned trains. The Government have provided the Mayor with a guarantee that enables him to move ahead with the proposed Northern line extension to Battersea. The upgrade of the sub-surface lines, in which my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster and I take a particular interest, will increase overall capacity by 33%. The spending round announcement last summer included a huge commitment of £5.8 billion in capital grant and a further £3.8 billion of borrowing power for TfL to 2021, which will be absolutely crucial to the delivery of Crossrail and the Thameslink project.

The hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) challenged the Mayor on trust. Memories are short on so many things; I remember the previous Mayor telling us in 2004 that there would be no increase in fare levels if he were re-elected, but the following January fares went up by a minimum of 4%. One must be careful when talking about trust, because that contention applies as much to Mayor Livingstone as to Mayor Johnson. The hon. Lady questioned me about fares, and the Mayor has said clearly that the extra accommodation that is needed can be found from TfL’s budget by a combination of efficiencies and increased commercial revenue. In the huge budget provided by the Government, there is scope for TfL to find the relatively small amount that the hon. Lady mentioned. The Mayor has decided, quite rightly in my opinion, to hold London fares down to RPI plus zero. I think it will be possible to find the amount required to do that, and it will be sustainable if he continues to deliver efficiencies and value for money and ensures that the money that the Government give to TfL is best spent.

Everybody has pointed out that London continues to grow. We are set to see a further 1.8 million people by the 2030s, which is enough to fill an extra tube train per week. It is quite right therefore that TfL set out its vision for the future of the tube on 21 November. The core commitment at the front of that vision is that all stations will be staffed and controlled when trains are running and there will be more staff visible on platforms and in ticket halls to help customers.

However we look at it, the way in which passengers choose to pay for their travel is changing. That is an incontrovertible fact, even though we may not like the 3% figure. Over the past five years, demand for travel has risen by 23%, but ticket office sales have fallen by 43%. At the same time, to meet customers’ expectations, station staffing needs to increase. The ticket office is not the heart of the station; it is simply a room. The staff are at the heart of a station’s operation. TfL’s vision for London will allow them to be better equipped with technology and information in the ticket halls and at the barriers, so that they can step out of the ticket office and improve customers’ journey experience.

Bank of England (Appointment of Governor) Bill

Debate between John McDonnell and Stephen Hammond

Friday 6th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[John McDonnell]

If there was a way of moving forward by that process, I would use it, but the problem is that we have now debated this matter in the Financial Services Bill, both in this House and the other place, and the Government have refused to accept the Treasury Committee’s recommendation. I hope that once I have sent this message today, the Government will shift their position and use whatever device is possible—either an amendment to the Financial Services Bill, the route the hon. Gentleman suggests, other routes that the Chair of the Treasury Committee has suggested exploring or the acceptance of this Bill.

At the time of the Treasury Committee’s recommendation and the debates on the amendments here and in the other place, the Government set their face against the proposal. I shall deal with the five basic objections and arguments that Treasury Ministers have put forward. First, there is the argument made by the Chancellor to the Committee that the Governor must be independent. He said:

“I think it is proper that the Government of the day chooses the Bank Governor, is held accountable for that choice, but also that the Governor is given some protection, some independence, so it is quite difficult, to put it mildly, or extremely difficult, to get rid of them.”

Ironically, the Committee fully agreed that the Governor should be independent and that this independence should be protected, but concluded that the best way of securing that independence was to ensure that the appointment was not solely in the hands of the Executive or one single politician. It further concluded that dismissal should also be determined more widely. Logically, then, the Governor is more likely to be seen as a creature of the Executive if he or she is solely appointed by the Executive. Making appointments and dismissals subject to the Committee’s approval must logically increase a post’s independence from Government and free the appointee from any charge of being a political appointee.

The second issue, which the Minister raised, was potential politicisation.

[Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman is making the point that the Bill would make the Governor more independent of the Executive. However, one of the things that I am sure several of my hon. Friends will be exploring in their speeches is that it may, in fact, interfere with his independence from the Treasury Committee.

[John McDonnell]

It is a matter of striking a balance and, at the moment, the Governor’s independence is undermined by association with appointment by one Minister and the Executive. My Bill would spread the burden of accountability and responsibility for the appointment.

On the issue of politicisation, the argument was that the Committee veto would politicise the post of the Governor. However, spreading the decision, to include all parties in determining the appointment, would avoid the charge that the person had been appointed by one party or one coalition grouping and was therefore a party political appointee. The charge of politicisation also neglects to acknowledge that our Select Committees have, over decades, developed a good culture of cross-party working. Where there have been disputes over a ministerial appointment in the past, they have not been on political lines. There have been only two rejections of a Minister’s recommendation, and they were cross-party rejections. Having to secure the approval of the Treasury Committee would override any charge of a single-party or party political fix.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Hammond]

(Wimbledon) (Con): I commend the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) for the way he has introduced his Bill. He has made some thought-provoking remarks, but I would gently say to him that I am sure that Members on both sides of the House have been asked whether they would like to make a contribution today. I have cancelled a lot of things in my constituency to be here today, and I am now being called puerile and unprincipled, yet had I been speaking from the Opposition Benches or supporting his Bill from the Government Benches, I would now be principled and upstanding. Let me gently say to him that that is not entirely fair.

[John McDonnell]

The hon. Gentleman has never engaged in filibustering that I have been aware of, but he knows that last year it occurred on several occasions, and was publicly and roundly condemned for bringing the House into disrepute.

[Stephen Hammond]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman.

The Bill is supported by large numbers of Members from both sides of the House, including many right hon. and hon. Friends whose judgment and intellect I respect and admire. However, let me start by setting out the four points on which there are internal contradictions in the hon. Gentleman’s argument or where there are reasons to oppose the Bill. First, the role is unique, and its extension increases that uniqueness. Secondly, the Government are already putting safeguards in place through the Financial Services Bill. Thirdly, despite what the hon. Gentleman has argued, a lot of people would accept that what he proposes is a fairly major constitutional change. Moreover, an underlying point he made is that this Bill somehow fits with the principle “for the people, by the people” so that anything other than that would be unacceptable.

I recently participated in a transport debate and gave what I thought was a fairly good detailed speech; indeed, one or two people were kind enough to say it was useful. I was pleased to note that my hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) who was the duty Whip at the time, said something like, “That was one of the dullest speeches I have ever heard; more time limits, please”! I hope the Whips will find my speech today to be equally dull; perhaps there is a case for time limits in debates such as this.

It might bring a little colour to the debate as well as a sense of purpose if we look at one or two of the Governors of the Bank of England over the last century who have been extremely powerful figures on the economy and powerful figures in respect of their independence from Government. We could reflect on how their appointments were made. Montagu Norman, for example, the Governor of the Bank of England from 1920 to 1944 was described by many as more of a bohemian artist than a banker. He liked to wear Sherlock Holmes-type clothing, was prone to nervous breakdown, regarded politicians as asses and openly said so. I just wonder what the Treasury Select Committee might have said to him when he was appointed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and that is one of my concerns. I have tried to lay out some arguments suggesting that giving a veto to the Treasury Committee does not necessarily enhance the independence of the position of Governor.

Moving on now to my concluding remarks—my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Mr Brady), the chairman of the 1922 committee, will be pleased to hear that—I just want to bring the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington back to his contention that this would not be a major change to our constitution. The Bill would put in place a legislative requirement for the Treasury Committee to have a veto over this appointment. The hon. Gentleman talked about the evolution of this role, but if he truly believed that, why does the Bill not seek to give Select Committees the power to veto all appointments—for there might be a number of Members of this House who would like to have parliamentary control of the appointment of the governor of the BBC, or the chief executive of Network Rail, or, closer to our hearts, the chief executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority? The hon. Gentleman said that private Members’ Bills give Members an opportunity to suggest changes to the Government. He might have had even wider support than he already has if he had introduced a Bill giving Select Committees the power of veto over appointments, so we could have had that more general discussion. To give that power of veto over this one appointment gives rise to considerable concerns, however, and it would create a major change in the constitutional position.

[John McDonnell]

I think that is the ideal argument for giving the Bill a Second Reading, so it can be amended appropriately.

[Stephen Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman and I disagree on that. I think it is the ideal reason why we should not give this Bill a Second Reading. We should be giving a Second Reading to the principle. We should be discussing the principle, not this specific case.

In my short speech this morning, I have tried to draw out a few reasons why it is absolutely right for there to be increased accountability and parliamentary scrutiny of the operation of the Bank of England and of its Governor. Although the Bill might appear to guarantee the independence of the Governor, it does not necessarily do so, and it would create a major extension of the constitutional position of Select Committees. Therefore, I hope Members will decline to give it a Second Reading.