BBC Funding

Debate between John McDonnell and Nadine Dorries

Monday 17th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Ms Dorries]

I thank my right hon. Friend, and that was my response to my early question: how do we keep good content—great British content—made in the UK? The BBC is a national institution—how do we maintain the BBC? The question is not: do we or do we not have a BBC? The question is: how do we fund the BBC moving forward? I know my right hon. Friend has made some interventions of his own and has ideas of his own, and I look forward to his furthering those.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Many of us find it nauseating that the Secretary of State has come here to talk about hard-pressed families when she supported the £20 cut to universal credit. I am sure she wants to be objective and have the fullest information. So could we test how much she considered some of these factors, perhaps in the style of the broadcast media? How much more money is generated by the investment in the BBC? Is it £1, £2 or £3? She talks about the north. How much of the BBC’s economic impact is beyond London? Is it 10%, 20% or 50%? Perhaps she could demonstrate her knowledge at least of the BBC’s impact.

[Ms Dorries]

I will write to the right hon. Gentleman with those specific figures.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act

Debate between John McDonnell and Nadine Dorries

Thursday 6th December 2018 Commons Chamber

[Ms Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Would the shadow Chancellor abandon his commitment to remain in the customs union if the backstop were not there and there was an absolute legal requirement for the 27 member states to reach a free trade agreement within the initial transition period?

[John McDonnell]

We believe that a permanent customs union is an essential part of the architecture for the future relationship that will secure our prosperity, and it would benefit the overall economy.

Far from influencing Members to back the Prime Minister’s deal, I believe that the threat of no deal, used in this way, is actually strengthening the momentum to secure an alternative approach.

I move on to the Prime Minister’s deal. It is clear that it is bad for Britain. It does not protect jobs or living standards and would leave this country worse off; it does not even respect the Prime Minister’s own red lines. It risks indefinitely tying the UK to agreements over which we will have no say whatever. It does not include a permanent customs union; it does not protect employment or environmental rights; and it does not deliver a strong relationship with the single market to protect businesses or, crucially, to allow them to plan with any certainty.

Infrastructure Planning Commission

Debate between John McDonnell and Nadine Dorries

Wednesday 16th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Nadine Dorries]

Absolutely. I will go into more detail about how undemocratic the IPC process is and how local people are completely excluded from the decision- making process for major infrastructure, whether that involves hospitals or whatever else being built in their area.

The national policy statements are open to public consultation. While still in draft form and before the relevant national policy statement has been designated by the Secretary of State, the IPC can still consider the evidence, but the Secretary of State will make the final decision. To date, the national policy statement remains in draft form. The Select Committee on Energy and Climate Change, of which I am a former member, has published its report on the six revised national policy statements. It has made 18 recommendations, the more important of which is about the timing of the statements. The Committee calls for the national policy statements not to be designated until the Localism Bill has been enacted, the abolition of the IPC has occurred and the national planning policy framework and national infrastructure plan are operational and harmonised with the electricity market reform process.

The IPC has published the following statements:

“If the NPSs which apply to a proposal are adopted before the point of decision making on a project, the IPC will make the decision.

If the relevant NPSs have not been adopted at the point of decision making on a project, the IPC will make a recommendation to the Secretary of State”.

I say to my right hon. Friend the Minister that this is a fundamental question. Given that the IPC hopes to conclude its own consultation by July and make a decision in October, will he please inform us on which date the national policy statements will be designated?

To date, my constituents have been forced into Kafkaesque engagement with a body that is to be abolished, with no certainty about whether the national policy statement guiding the IPC examination will be altered once the deadline for written submissions has passed. If the national policy statements are altered and designated after the existing public consultation period has passed, will the Minister agree that my constituents, after having digested a 7,400-page document, will have provided their submissions on the basis of documents that are no longer relevant and therefore the IPC process relating to the Covanta incinerator in my constituency must be abolished—scrapped—and begun again on the basis of the relevant designated documents? How can a process of public consultation exist if the information constituents are given is no longer relevant by the time the IPC makes its decision? My constituents will have been providing consultation responses based on one set of rules and the IPC will be making its decision based on another, which will enable the IPC to disregard completely the public consultation as it will no longer be relevant when the IPC makes its decision.

The consultation process as run by the IPC has been woeful and undemocratic. Either the Government are wide-eyed localist or they are not. The IPC is not and is at odds with present Government policy. On Monday 17 January, at 10 o’clock on a cold morning in Bedford, the IPC held a public hearing—nowhere near the community where the facility is to be placed. Guidance was given to my constituents not to instruct lawyers and not to take legal advice. However, when my constituents arrived at the public hearing, they found that both the local authorities and the IPC had brought their team of lawyers along with them. The atmosphere was, to say the least, intimidating as lawyers played legal ping-pong with one another. Only the bravest of my constituents felt able to stand up and contribute. They had been told before the hearing took place the issues they were not allowed to discuss. One of those was noise, which is actually one of the biggest considerations for my constituents.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady’s party and I opposed this whole process under the last Government. It is being played out exactly as we predicted—undemocratically; not taking into account local people’s views. Does she agree that whatever system is put in place, and whatever the policy statements or framework, it must take into account local views but must also be accountable to and amendable by Parliament?

[Nadine Dorries]

I completely agree. I hope that when the IPC is abolished—the present Government have committed to abolishing it and bringing the functions in-house—the fact that the Secretary of State will have the final decision and that, hopefully, we will go back to the previous system of public engagement and inquiries means there will at least be a more democratic process. Of course, that will need to be discussed in Parliament, and I hope we will take a vote on it.

To return to that cold Monday morning in Bedford, only the bravest of my constituents, as I said, stood up to speak at the meeting. All left it feeling that they had not really had an opportunity to express their concerns about the proposal.

The application document my constituents had to plough through to submit objections was 7,400 pages long and was available online, so those who were not computer literate and did not have access to a computer were disadvantaged. There were a limited number of hard copies, but people had to pay hundreds of pounds for them and they were available only at certain locations. How is that democratic? The people who wanted to respond to the documents could not even get hold of them. Furthermore, constituents’ initial representations were limited to 500 words, but the document they were responding to was 7,400 pages long. Why is that? How can that be democratic?

Only a limited number of hard-copy registration forms were available to those who did not have access to a computer. People had to complete those forms to inform the IPC that they were going to object to or, indeed, support the proposals, although I imagine that most people wanted to object. Given the limited number of forms, however, those who wanted to let the IPC know that they were going to object could not even do that.

Those who made a submission online met a barrage of problems. For example, the registration process had a cut-off date. Once that date had passed, some people received e-mails telling them that they had not ticked a particular box on the very detailed form and that they had to resubmit the form, but the submission date had passed. It seemed that lots of tricks were employed to minimise the number of objections so that the IPC and Covanta could say that there was not that much public opposition.

The IPC timetable is very inflexible, short and tight. That is why people missed the registration point. If the timetable had not been so tight and inflexible, there might have been room for adjustments and amendments where people had, for example, made errors with e-mails, but there was absolutely none—everything was played according to the IPC’s rules, with absolutely no consideration given to the difficulties local people might have in engaging with this complicated and bureaucratic process.

An unelected official in the IPC or the Department for Communities and Local Government should not take a decision to impose a major infrastructure project on a local community when almost every man, woman and child is against it. The only representation those people have is via their elected representatives.

If, despite the objections of local people, the Government believe that it is vital in the national interest for an application to be approved, that judgment should be the responsibility of the Secretary of State in the relevant Department, and it should be reached only after a thorough examination of local people’s wishes. There should be a thorough examination of the application, and people should have the opportunity to attend meetings and make their feelings known. Of course, people in my constituency may absolutely support the current project, but I do not think that that is the case. The Secretary of State should halt the IPC process using the powers in the Planning Act, so that all participants can contribute to the process and so that a clear decision can be made.

The process of finalising the national policy statements, on which the IPC would base a decision, will prejudice the application if it is carried out at the same time as the application is being considered. A legal process cannot be deemed reasonable and fair if the goalposts are moved while it is being carried out. If the national policy statements are designated during the IPC examination process, any changes in the final versions will not be reflected in the process that has taken place up to that time.

At present, I and the residents of Mid Bedfordshire have no idea who will take the final decision or on what basis they will do so. If the national policy statements are not finalised before the Secretary of state makes a decision, any other matters taken into account in reaching the decision will not have been subject to examination. Any recommendation made by the IPC on the basis of the national policy statements should be disregarded because they lack democratic legitimacy. Furthermore, the IPC process relies on a limited number of rounds of written submissions, which does not allow detailed examination of the key issues that matter to local people.

Is the Minister aware that Mid Bedfordshire is largely flat? In fact, Bedfordshire is known for being flat until one reaches the Dunstable downs. The incinerator is to be in the centre of Marston vale, so it can be viewed from almost every vantage point in the constituency and will absolutely blight the view from all of them—it can be seen from every raised point from Ampthill park to the Millennium park.

Is the Minister also aware that the constituency proudly recycles more that 50% of its waste? Central Bedfordshire council has worked hard to educate and inform people about the importance of recycling. If the incinerator is granted planning permission, all that recycling, education and work will go to waste because everything will be fed into this monstrous machine.

As the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) said, the Conservative party predicted this problem with the IPC. However, I am running out of time, so I would like to have a clear answer from the Minister on a number of points. When will the national policy statements be designated? If they are designated during the process taking place in my constituency, and after my constituents have made their submissions, does the Minister agree that the process should be stopped? My constituents will have made their submissions on the basis of information that is no longer relevant and considerations into which they will have had no input.

Will the Minister please understand that we are not talking about a group of nimbys in Mid Bedfordshire complaining about something that will affect just a few people? The geographical lay-out of my constituency means that everyone there is angry about this issue. Everybody is incensed about how dreadful this application is and about what a disaster it will be for Mid Bedfordshire if it goes through.