Undercover Policing

Debate between John McDonnell and Mike Penning

Thursday 26th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

We do not know if it was only Labour Members, and that is what the inquiry will find out. As the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) said, we know so little because so little was passed up the food chain to Ministers. That is why we need the inquiry to find out exactly what went on.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

A few months ago, I met with Herne inquiry officers who confirmed to me covert surveillance of the campaign that Mrs Reel and I set up to find out what happened to her son, Ricky, when he died 13 years ago. We were told that we were subject to “collateral intrusion”. Two weeks ago, I tabled early-day motion 899 because I was contacted by Peter Francis, the former member of the Metropolitan police’s special demonstration squad, who confirmed in a statement that covert surveillance was carried out on trade unions, including the Fire Brigades Union, the Communication Workers Union, the National Union of Teachers and Union of Construction, Allied Trades and Technicians, as well as the families involved in justice groups, when all they were doing was seeking justice. In the Reel case, the family were simply trying to find out what happened to their unfortunately lost son.

Can the Minister confirm—and this rests with the Minister, not with the inquiry—that immunity will be given to Peter Francis, and other whistleblowers who have come forward, from any action under the Official Secrets Act when they give evidence to the inquiry?

[Mike Penning]

The Home Secretary, the Prime Minister and I will want everybody who gives evidence as whistleblowers to have immunity. We need to get to the truth, and that is something I am committed to doing from this Dispatch Box—I am sure that I have the authority of the others to say so.

Police

Debate between John McDonnell and Mike Penning

Tuesday 10th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

Being impaired when driving a motor vehicle is just that. When the legislation was taken through the House, that argument was put forward, but it is the responsibility of drivers who are driving a vehicle on the road to know what is in their bloodstream. This is a very important area, which is why I alluded to the need to ensure that the advice from the pharmacist when the drugs are given out is not confined to advising whether to take them after or before a meal, or not to operate heavy machinery. The hon. Gentleman is right, but it will always be the responsibility of people driving a vehicle to know what is in their bloodstream and whether it will impair them.

The level has been set by a scientific committee, so this is not about people who take one co-codamol that morning being over the limit; it is about ensuring that we have the necessary technology. Technology is moving fast and we expect another manufacturer to have type-approval on a roadside saliva test in the next few months. We expect to ensure that we keep officers on the streets as much as possible, because the time involved in implementing the existing scheme means that they are tied up for too long.

We also expect the technology to come through soon so that we have a roadside evidential base for drink-driving. At the moment our legislation is based back in the 1960s, when the breathalyser bag provided the base, then we could arrest and the machinery was in the station. If we can get an evidential base at the roadside, that will eliminate a whole swath of the bureaucracy that we have to go through to ensure that we get the necessary conviction of impaired drivers. Such drivers cause death, dismay and injury on our roads every day. We should not in any way be lightening the pressure on drink-drivers as we work on drug-drivers.

The most obvious piece of technology that will free up officers’ time is body-worn cameras. They are freeing up time, protecting officers and giving us an evidence base. We have already seen, in the brilliant work in Hampshire, Kent and other forces, that when the evidence is put to the accused, they almost immediately say—on advice from their solicitors, usually—that they will plead guilty. The amount of assaults on officers is down. When officers arrive somewhere on a Friday night obviously wearing cameras, the dispersal is interesting to watch, as I have seen myself from the videos.

We need to take things further. We need to ensure that the body-worn camera cannot be ripped easily from the body armour—some of the early cameras could be because they were on a clip system—and we are looking into that in my own force in Hertfordshire. We also need to ensure that the evidence that the camera is capturing cannot be tampered with. In other words, someone might rip the camera off and dispose of it, so we need to stream away the evidence from the scene. At the same time I am working closely with the Crown Prosecution Service and the rest of the criminal justice system to ensure that the technology flows through the system. When officers store the evidence, whether in the cloud or a secure system, the CPS should be able to enter that system and see the evidence without having to wait for it to be downloaded or burnt on to a CD-ROM.

I have also been asked whether Kent could trial statements being taken on camera, so we would not need to have them transcribed. That could be exciting, because it could put officers on to the streets for much longer, so that they did not have to sit in the stations transcribing something picked up on the body-worn camera. Such developments are world-leading. Police forces from around the world are coming to see us to see how we are using the technology. Only the other day, at a two-day international crime and policing conference in London, leading academics and other criminal justice professionals from around the world came to see how we had managed to lower not only crime, but the costs of it—in other words, how we were getting more bang for our buck—and to see the technology. Australia, for example, has had roadside drug testing for many years, but the Australian police need to take a 44-tonne articulated lorry to the roadside in order to test everyone passing through, which has huge cost implications. They are very interested in the technology that we have type-approved and are introducing.

We are still in difficult economic times. Money to the police has been cut, which was a difficult decision to make. Police forces around the country have predominantly done well at dealing with the cut. Most of them have budgeted for 2015-16 and the review for 2016-17 is still taking place—consultation continues to work—and I suggest that all colleagues, whether in the Chamber or not, work with their local police to see how best that consultation can be used for the benefit of their constituents.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I want to make several points. The Minister congratulated the police on the reduction in crime overall, and I concur with that, but a real issue remains. For example, in London and in my constituency in particular, the safer neighbourhood teams were introduced and were extremely popular and successful, but they are now being penalised as a result of their success. The teams reduce crime, but then lose resources, which are shifted elsewhere, and crime increases; we go around in circles time and time again. It is important that discussions on the new formula result in a new settlement that will reward those forces that are successfully operating to reduce crime, giving them consistency of funding over time. The undermining of the safer neighbourhood teams is deeply unpopular in my constituency.

[Mike Penning]

Recently, I had long discussions with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner on that very subject. Only the other day I was at Hendon, sadly the day before the passing-out parade before the commissioner of about 400 new officers. I understand that by March the Metropolitan police will be just under the 32,000 level; it will then recruit at 175 per month, which will reflect the steady level of natural wastage in London. That is a remarkable feat achieved by the Mayor of London for the people of London. I accept that in the old days the Policing Minister would look at things in exactly the way the hon. Gentleman suggests, but it is now a matter for the commissioner and for the Mayor. Such matters would also be for the mayor and commissioner in Manchester, if it is successful in its bid to proceed with the mayoral system, which will include the police.

Key to everything is that we have managed remarkably well to reduce crime, as the hon. Gentleman said, and at the same time to reduce the cost of policing. The public’s opinion of our police in general has never been better. I always say, “Yes, I have the honour of being the police Minister for the best police force in the world.” Some police officers let us down, but they are a tiny minority and we should be proud of every single one of our officers, who represent us every single day of the year.

Crime Reduction Policies

Debate between John McDonnell and Mike Penning

Thursday 22nd January 2015 Westminster Hall

[John McDonnell]

I understand that as it applies to recent years, but there has been a steady increase from 2007 onwards, although the numbers peaked at 123 in 2013. That might be because of the ageing prison population, but I would like more information.

[Mike Penning]

This is such an important point—and we have plenty of time, so I do not necessarily apologise for interrupting. Long before I took my present job, I visited my local prison regularly—and I have visited many others since getting this job. The one thing that prison officers tell me week in, week out, is that the age of the prison population is rising. I have asked for some analysis. It is something that we need to look at seriously.

If the age of the prison population is going up, the way we look after prisoners who have the medical conditions that people get later in life is very important. For example, the incidence of Alzheimer’s and dementia has gone up in the general population, and that is replicated in prisons.

[John McDonnell]

That brings me to the Select Committee’s consideration of the need for a strategy for older people in prison. The Government need to have a greater sense of urgency about developing that and addressing the present issues. If we can expect such a level of problems, we must make sure a strategy for older prisoners is developed. The Government seem to have resisted that, almost semantically, in some respects—it seems that we have policies, but the Government refuse to accept that that is a strategy. I have never been completely sure why.

The Howard League for Penal Reform has made its views clear, and they largely reflect my own. Frances Crook says:

“Hard-pressed prison staff have to save lives by cutting people down almost every day and without this the death toll would be even higher”.

She continues:

“It is evident that people are dying as a direct result of the cuts to the number of staff, particularly more experienced staff, in every prison. The government has chosen to allow the prison population to increase whilst it cuts staff, and that has led to an increase in people dying by suicide”.

That is the view of the Howard League, and the Prison Officers Association expressed the same view to the Committee. Its concern is that with the reduction in staff numbers, many experienced staff were lost. I understand that the Government are now wisely recruiting staff in significant numbers and, in addition, are putting some of the staff who have gone into a reserve army. That needs to be increased, drawing back in some of the expertise lost as a result of the incoherent policy of laying off so many experienced staff in recent years.

The Secretary of State has said that there is no evidence directly linking staff levels to suicides, but sometimes there is a blindingly obvious issue: when people are locked in their cells for long periods, as is now happening, and there is a lack of staff who could take them towards purposeful and creative activity, they can dwell on their problems and that can exacerbate mental health problems. Unfortunately that sometimes leads to suicide.

Drug services were covered in the report. The news this week told us that the Ministry of Justice has announced that in the year up to March 2011 there were 3,700 drug seizures, and in 2013-14 the number increased to 4,500. That might be a celebration of the increased efforts being made in prison to police drugs, but it also reflects the prison drugs problem, and the need for greater investment in treatment as well as detection.

I am a member of the drugs and alcohol group formed under Lord Ramsbotham’s chairmanship. We met yesterday to consider some recent figures and statistics on drugs, in prison and elsewhere, and investment in treatment. We concur largely with the views of Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons, who said:

“Prisons continued to focus on recovery working, which was appropriate, usually with active peer support and service user engagement.”

However, a quarter of inspected prisons

“were not focused enough on the needs of prisoners with alcohol problems”.

Furthermore, in relation to drugs in particular:

“In a minority of services, recovery working was undermined by enforced reduction or inflexible prescribing”.

The report stated:

“Prison substance misuse services offered psychosocial support to prisoners and clinical management of opiate substitution therapy. However, full psychosocial support was not available in a quarter of services and prisoners’ needs were not met.”

Also:

“Clinical management in most prisons was flexible and catered to individual need. However, some options were limited by the refusal of the prison or SMS provider to prescribe buprenorphine, which was contrary to national guidance.”

There is thus still inconsistency in services, and the statistics are pretty stark. Sixty-four per cent. of prisoners have reported using drugs, and 22% alcohol, and

“90% of adult prisoners had at least one of the following five mental health or behavioural disorders (personality disorder; psychosis, neurosis, and alcohol misuse and drug dependence).”

Fourteen per cent. of prisoners in England and Wales said that they developed a substance misuse problem in prison, and 31% said that

“illegal drugs are easy or very easy to access in their prison”.

It just goes on and on.

A particular concern raised in recent evidence to the Committee related to what are described as legal highs. Specifically, “Spice” and “Black Mamba” were cited as cause for concern; 37% of the adult male establishments inspected, and particularly local prisons and category D jails, had a specific problem with those drugs. Detection of drugs in prison has increased, as I mentioned, and the figures this week are significantly improved, but the overall issue continues. As to alcohol, 17% of prisoners in England and Wales say that it is very easy to obtain in prison, and there has been an 84% increase in the number of prisoners who have been returned to closed prisons in the past three years because of drugs or alcohol. One in four absconders from prison who were still unlawfully at large had been convicted for a drug offence.

The issue is what is happening to prevent people from entering the prison system as a result of drug or mental health problems, and what support there is for them if they do enter it. The cross-party drug and alcohol group has been working with DrugScope. In a recent report, it identified the problem of the increased purity of some drugs now available, and the price drop, which has increased the crisis on the streets.

We face the possibility, as a result, of a significant increase in the number of people coming into the criminal justice system and prison with drugs problems. Some of the reforms in drug service provision inside and outside prison have contributed to that. DrugScope has conducted a survey, to be published in a few weeks, on funding changes. It surveyed organisations that it works with, and 60% of them reported a decrease in funding. Even in the residential sector the figure was 11%. As to workers in the field, supporting people who want to come off drugs, 53% of the organisations reported a significant increase in the caseload per worker.

I worry that if services are not provided in the community now, more and more people who come into the criminal justice system will have drug problems. Already we are struggling to cope with drugs in prison. The latest statistics show that in the past year, in the overall drug-using population, there has been a 32% increase in deaths. Is that because of cuts in services or the increased purity of the drugs, which are more dangerous?

A balanced view might suggest a combination of the two. That is extremely worrying, because that increased purity of drugs on the streets will eventually seep into prisons. If the number of prisoners in the system who are dependent on drugs or have drug problems worsens, and the drugs coming into prisons are of a kind that reflects what is happening on the streets, and if we do not plan to deal with that issue, the deaths in custody statistics will significantly increase.

I should welcome a dialogue between Select Committee members and the Minister about how the issue is to be tackled. In addition to the Government’s response to the report, I would welcome a response to the Committee regarding the latest suicide figures, the death figures and the DrugScope report, which will be available in the next few weeks, about the increasing problem of drugs on the streets, which will inevitably impact on those within the criminal justice system.

I am worried about what is happening in our prisons. When we raised the number of suicides previously with the Minister, naturally the response was that any death in our prisons is a matter of concern. I understand what was said in paragraph 63 about politicians’ language—it is important that we ensure that we use appropriate language and moderate our language when dealing with something so sensitive—but on this scale it is no exaggeration to say that we have a crisis on our hands with regard to the number of suicides.

Emergency action is needed, and if that means a significant increase in staff in certain prisons, a review of our mental health services, and a review of and greater investment in our drug support services, we need to do it whatever the cost at the moment. The number of lives being lost is unacceptable in what we seek to portray as our civilised system of criminal justice.

Greenock Coastguard Station

Debate between John McDonnell and Mike Penning

Wednesday 8th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mike Penning]

Of course. I was still responding to the intervention made by my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth and when I have finished dealing with it, I will discuss the points that the hon. Lady has raised. In that intervention, I was asked specifically what will happen later in the process. We will announce our proposals once we have taken into consideration the Select Committee’s report. That means that I will have to reopen the consultation, but I stress that that will be just to allow that report to be taken into consideration. If I did not do so, I would be insulting the Select Committee and there is no way I intend to do that. The Government will announce their conclusions before the summer recess—as we have said all the way through, they are likely to be different—and then I will reopen the consultation. That is the right and proper way to proceed if we want to work with the public, with the service and with Members of this House. It is different from the way in which a lot of consultations have historically been carried out over the years, but I do not think this will be a one-off; I think that the Government will take this approach on a regular basis. I recall a consultation on my local general hospital in which 85% of respondents said they did not want the hospital to close, yet it was closed in any case. No consideration was given to people’s concerns. Does this approach mean that everybody is going to be happy? No, of course it does not. However, proper consultation will take place again once we put forward our proposals.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I apologise for arriving so late to the debate and I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. It would be very helpful if he gave a commitment at the start of that consultation to avoid compulsory redundancies at every stage in the process from there on in.

[Mike Penning]

I hope that there would not be compulsory redundancies, but I cannot give that commitment and I am not going to stand at this Dispatch Box and mislead people. The PCS has known that all the way through. It is important to understand that there will be job losses if we reduce the number of co-ordination centres, although I hope that such job losses will not be compulsory. I have gone through redundancy, despite my union fighting to help me, so I understand where people are coming from. However, if I am going to increase salaries, training and career prospects, I have to find that money from somewhere and that money will come from the savings we are finding. There are quite significant costs up front, particularly for the resilience we want to put into the system. The Treasury has been generous and I have money, but I cannot carry that forward—I must make savings. To be fair, the union—

Coastguard Service

Debate between John McDonnell and Mike Penning

Wednesday 2nd February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mike Penning]

The hon. Gentleman will have to bear with me because I have two minutes left.

We should not sit back and, on behalf of our constituents, say that we think all stations can stay open and that everything is fine. I know that the previous Government looked at the matter because it was on the table when I was appointed. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick)—I call him my hon. Friend because we have been friends for many years—has been sensible and this has been quite a sensible debate. What worries me is that, when hon. Members go home, they will say to their local papers tonight—I have seen such things in the papers that land on my desk in the morning—that lives are at risk and are going to be lost. The headlines will be : “Cuts to your service,” “Cuts to the frontline,” “Cuts to this.” That is not going to happen. There will be job losses. Some will be voluntary and some will be compulsory.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Some 200 jobs are going.

[Mike Penning]

We do not know the numbers.

[John McDonnell]

On a point of order, Mr Hancock. The Minister has made reference to the unions agreeing with his proposals in some form. I would not wish him to mislead the House. I chair the Public and Commercial Services Union group in Parliament. That group represents 500 members who will be affected. The unions have not supported these proposals and will not accept 220 jobs being cut, which they believe will put lives at risk.