Universal Credit and Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work Search and Work Availability Requirements @0017 Limitations (Amendment) Regulations 2022

John McDonnell Excerpts

Wednesday 20th April 2022 General Committees

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

To be frank, I may have taken my eye off the ball, but I did not think that the policy was a contentious issue from the past. I did not think it was an issue to be addressed at all. Over the years, there has been consensus about the nature of a policy that allows people a breathing space. That policy originally came from discussions between the TUC, the CBI and others, I think, and particularly related to skilled workers. They were given breathing space to ensure that they found employment that used their skills most effectively, which is beneficial to both them and the economy overall. The key issue was about ensuring that people kept within their profession or trade and maintained their skill level. As a result, they benefited from higher wages.

I honestly did not think that that was an issue to be challenged. I do not know where the proposal has come from. I certainly do not understand why there is urgency. I am really surprised that such regulations have been brought forward without full consideration of the rationale for the original policy, which was, as I said, largely to maintain people’s level of skills and to provide them with a decent income. Exactly as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West has said, the intention was to avoid putting pressure on these workers to go into sectors or unskilled work from which it would be very difficult for them to retrieve their position. The three-month period was to ensure they had the time to find alternative suitable work away from the pressures of the daily grind.

I literally do not understand the measure and what worries me is that usually experts are consulted before new policies such as this are introduced. Years ago, as a youngster, I used to work for the TUC. I used to do the papers for trade union representations on the Social Security Advisory Committee, and its members are the experts. To say that the Government will consult the committee retrospectively is farcical. Once the Government have introduced a policy, it is very difficult to see them suddenly reversing it if it is rejected by the Social Security Advisory Committee. In addition, what I find bizarre is that the 21-day rule gets thrown out as well. We will introduce the policy immediately after it is legislatively agreed. I also do not understand why there has been no consultation with the legislatures in Scotland, Northern Ireland or Wales. Additionally, there has been no impact assessment.

That is not a good policy-making process. I am critical of the Government on a number of issues, but usually they have abided by a standard process of consulting the appropriate organisations and making sure there is time for proper consideration of any impact a policy might have. I honestly cannot understand the rationale for bouncing the measure through at such speed. I cannot understand the rationale behind the principle. It will be counterproductive and will particularly affect skilled workers. It will put them under undue pressure, and we will lose their skills over time.

I am also fearful that, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West says, the change will have an impact on the financial standing of some who will be unfortunately forced into work that is inappropriate to them, reduces their overall incomes and subjects them to the potential of sanction and the loss of all income. I think it is a misguided policy. The only objective I can see is that somebody, somewhere in Government—civil servant, Minister or whatever—has set the target of getting 500,000 people into work by the end of June, and the regulations are one of the blunt instruments they are going to use to do that. The problem is that they will put square pegs in round holes, in that they will be counterproductive for the individuals and the economy. That is why I wish to vote against them. I think they are misconstrued and misguided.

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[Mims Davies]

The hon. Lady makes an important point about the evidence and why employers want more people to apply for their jobs who normally would have ruled themselves out. On labour market figures day last Tuesday, I was at a job fair at one of our 190-plus new jobcentres, just outside Gatwick airport. They have 5,000 vacancies at the jobcentre there, and I spoke to representatives of Gatwick airport and local supply chains who were delighted to be meeting claimants who were looking to change and move into the sector, to help reinvigorate and bring back tourism and aviation. Those people had perhaps done different things before the pandemic, or were looking to progress and do something else. I can give the hon. Lady plenty of examples of employers, going beyond surveys. This is about real people—it is beyond statistics. It is about jobs, livelihoods, and real people progressing.

The right hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington was wondering why this is suddenly an issue. According to my records, he has not been to his local jobcentre since 2017, so perhaps if he popped down to that jobcentre and spoke to the work coaches, he would see it in action.

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Mims Davies]

Perhaps he has been recently; forgive me if I am incorrect.

[John McDonnell]

I do not think that is true—that is the first thing. The second is that I am in continuous conversations with the jobcentre, and occasionally will visit, because it is next to my home. The issue is whether there is any evidence of reluctance among workers to take those jobs. Is that what the measure is about? Is there some evidence of reluctance, of people not wanting the jobs that she has explained exist?

[Mims Davies]

We will have a look at our records about whether there has been an official visit, but according to what I have, there has been no visit in the past four years.

[John McDonnell]

I do not do official visits, but I continue to work—

[Mims Davies]

I understand, but there have been comments about people being shoved into jobs, not tailored support. If the right hon. Gentleman chatted to work coaches, he would see that the reality is that people are getting tailored support and understanding what is right for them. We have reinstated those crucial face-to-face appointments, the first commitment meetings where work coaches can build that crucial rapport with claimants and then build on it, delivering regular, intensive support for claimants at the beginning of their claim and helping them to move back into work more quickly.

Crucially, Way to Work is bringing employers and claimants together quicker, helping to optimise the recruitment process through job fairs, employer hubs, social media channels, the DWP’s Job Help website and our “Find a job” service. All those interventions have grown during the pandemic and post-pandemic to help people, and employers are offered a named, dedicated local employment adviser at their jobcentre to work with them to fill their local vacancies. If they are a national employer, they are also offered a dedicated national account manager.

I have met many of those people, who have been keenly helping people leaving prison, Afghan resettlers and others; they are very keen to extend all those opportunities more widely. We are also vastly extending our existing network of employer contacts, setting up work trials, for example, and using our existing sector-based work academies to give employers the opportunity to see what local recruits have to offer via the DWP. In fact, on my last visit to my local jobcentre in Haywards Heath, one gentleman was meeting an employer on the day and got offered a job, and he had not been in work for seven years. These measures are life changing, because people are having those conversations in our jobcentres.

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[Mims Davies]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Many people have stepped into work in sectors that they would never have considered, because of the pandemic. They have done it because it is the right thing to help their community and their family or because of the impact on their sector. Through our plan for jobs, including the restart programme that supports people after nine months’ unemployment—previously it was after a year—we are helping people with their wellbeing, confidence and skills. The longer someone is out of work, the harder it is to progress. Once someone is in a job, it is much easier to get a better job and reach the next stage of their career.

In essence, I think that people are saying that the regulations are trying to get people to go into the wrong roles. It is all down to good-quality work coaching with our local jobcentres and teams opening up people’s mindsets and abilities, in the way that the pandemic has for some people, so that they try new sectors. That does not mean that they will leave the sector that they have not been able to get back into forever, but they can transition and use their skills in a way that perhaps had not occurred to them, and we are making sure that people understand that.

[John McDonnell]

rose—

[Chris Stephens]

rose—

[Mims Davies]

I would like to conclude—

[John McDonnell]

Don’t follow that advice; the Minister wants constructive engagement.

[Mims Davies]

I think I have been very generous to the right hon. Gentleman, but I will hear him out just this once.

[John McDonnell]

I am grateful for that. This is about getting the policy right at some stage. If the Government are to retrospectively engage with the Social Security Advisory Committee, it might well be that some of these issues can be taken up and the policy honed as it goes to implementation.

The hon. Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham is right that often it is best to be in work to find another job, but I am worried that this policy seems to be based on an idea that people are reluctant to take alternative work in different sectors. That is why I asked for evidence of that. When the Minister writes to my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral South, I would be grateful if she included any evidence of such reluctance in the correspondence.

The issue is that once people are forced into work, which could be long hours on low pay, that makes it more difficult to get into other work, so when the consultation takes place with the SSAC, it is important to ensure opportunities for the individual to challenge some of the decisions, based on the reasonableness of getting back into a level of work or professional grade that they had before. [Interruption.] I apologise for the length of my intervention.

[Mims Davies]

I do not think I have ever spoken about the reluctance of our claimants to be tenacious and open-minded and to move forward. In fact, that is what the relationship that we build among work coaches, local employers and sector-based work academies, and our approach that we have developed through the plan for jobs, has really brought out. Given the transitions and opportunities and our 50-plus choices and 50-plus champions, I often remind people that the latter part of their careers, when they have great choices, can be the most fulfilling of their working lives. In fact, that is 25% of a working life. The hon. Member for Wirral South mentioned those who fall into economic inactivity, which is something we are focused on.

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[John McDonnell]

On a point of order, Ms Elliott. The Minister made reference to my visits to a local jobcentre. My office—we are in almost daily dialogue with the local jobcentre on individual cases—does say that my visits are fairly frequent, but they have largely been on the picket lines with PCS in the disputes that have taken place.

May I just make this point? Are MPs’ visits to Government offices now being monitored by the Government? If that is the case, could we be informed of that? If that is to be raised in debates such as this one, we will need to make sure that all our visits are properly logged. I think that monitoring the activities of individual MPs is a dangerous process and we should be aware of it.

[The Chair]

Thank you. That is not a matter for the Chair, but the point has been noted and is recorded.

Question put.