Infrastructure Bill [Lords]

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Wednesday 11th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tom Greatrex]

I note from the number of Members seeking to catch your eye, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the amount of time left that even if I try to be brief, which I will, we will probably not have the opportunity to repair the damage that the Government have done to the amendment that was passed wholeheartedly by this House just a couple of weeks ago. The Minister should regret that. Given that she refused to take interventions on a number of specific points, I will put them to the House.

My understanding is that some of the changes the Government have made in introducing the amendment in the other place do not go as far as what was agreed by this House on 26 January—again, a matter to be regretted, particularly in view of some the commitments and comments that the Minister made in her sometimes rather chaotic contribution on that date. Once again, I think the House will come to regret that.

Last month, many in the Chamber were left with the impression that the Government had listened and accepted the case being made, which included issues concerning groundwater protection and areas of protection, as well as other detailed points. Although I accept that there has been value in clarifying some of the language in our amendment, I do not accept that every one of the changes made by the Government and the Minister protect the integrity of the amendment passed by this House. As I have said, that is to be regretted.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes)]

rose—

[Tom Greatrex]

I am not giving way. It is to be regretted on both sides of the House. [Interruption.] The Minister’s Parliamentary Private Secretary is chuntering away, as she is wont to do, so let me remind her that we are short of time and that the Minister refused to give way during her contribution. I will repay that lack of courtesy to the Minister. That is how she seems to want to deal with the issues this afternoon.

Infrastructure Bill [Lords]

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Monday 26th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Tom Greatrex]

I thank my hon. Friend, who makes an important point. We are here to scrutinise this Bill, and we have reached this stage after our debate in Committee with a whole stream of amendments on a range of relevant issues. We asked for two days and we have secured only one, and we are left with a very short time to try to deal with the issues. It is very difficult indeed for the House collectively to make a judgment on them. That is an indication of a dereliction of duty on the part of the Government in bringing this Bill before us this afternoon.

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mr John Hayes)]

I have no desire to embarrass the hon. Gentleman—I regard him almost as a protégé, so I would never want to do that. I have to tell him, however, that the letter in question, which he claims not to have received, was dated 20 January and was sent by me on the specific issue raised by the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller). It was addressed, by the way, to “the right honourable Andrew Miller, MP” and it says at the bottom: “I trust this is a response to your question and I am copying it to the Chair and members of the Public Bill Committee.” There must therefore be some misunderstanding on the part of the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex). I know he is a decent and honourable man, so I take it that the matter is now closed.

[Tom Greatrex]

I am sorry to disappoint the Minister, given that I seem to have just been anointed his protégé. That will have done me no good at all. If my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston cannot find any evidence that he has received that letter—[Interruption.] If he has not received the letter, it makes it very difficult for us to deal with these issues.

Let me return to the wider issue of what the Minister said a moment ago now in relation to the protection of certain areas, which the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Sir John Randall) and others have raised in amendments. There seems to be a suggestion that the exception in the Bill would be removed, but no indication of how that would be done, given that the Bill has been through the House of Lords and we are now dealing with its final stages.

Biomass Power Generation

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Wednesday 20th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Tom Greatrex]

Indeed, and I was about to quote from its figures. The hon. Gentleman is right and he makes the point about the different interpretations. In debates about different aspects of energy policy, sometimes differences of view are over-interpreted and elaborated on by people with an ideological objection, which is regrettable. In this case, if we go into the detail of the different sets of data, to establish exactly what the impact is, it would be good for the industry and good for the energy supply going forward.

The last time we discussed this, in a Committee, I asked the Minister some questions. He gave a commitment, but he did not answer other questions precisely or completely, so I would like to give him the chance to do so, because there is a slightly different audience this afternoon. When he met the all-party group, he agreed to write to generators requesting information on their biomass sourcing intentions for the next five years. I want to press him again on whether the correspondence has begun and whether the information is back from the generators. They are important data, particularly, as he knows, in relation to the differentiation between imported and indigenous supply, which brings us back to the points the hon. Member for Hexham made about the industry.

The Minister said that he will look again at the option of differentiating support for imported and indigenous products. Will he come back to that point? He also said that he would establish a working group with the wood panel industry and that the letters would go out before the end of the month. We are not quite, but almost at the end of the month, and he made the commitment at the beginning of the month. Has he been able to do it yet?

[Mr Hayes]

I have indeed written to the large-scale users of biomass for information about the kind of product they use. My Department is analysing that information and will follow it up in the way I said I would. In addition, my Department has been in touch with the wood panel industry to arrange a date for the workshop I want to put on, to ensure that we are comparing like with like and that the data we have received are in line with the industry’s data. I take the hon. Gentleman’s point about mismatch and the difficulties of definition.

[Tom Greatrex]

I thank the Minister for that response. I am sure that those who have expressed concerns will welcome his clarification. I do not have an objection to biomass, but it needs to be employed properly, which is about sustainability and transparency in sourcing.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—again, he is an authority on these matters. The pits at Thoresby and Kellingley are, of course, also owned by Daw Mill. Part of our determination—the determination I outlined a moment ago—is to ensure that the future of those pits is secured. However, he is also right to say—this goes for me, too—that the workers matter most in all this. That includes the workers who were made redundant in the early restructuring, the workers at Thoresby and Kellingley and the workers at Daw Mill. I have made that abundantly clear to the unions, with which I had such a positive meeting, and I have told the company that, for the Government, it is a key priority.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister has already referred to the importance of CCS in relation to the medium and long-term future of coal generation. I am sure he will be aware that around two thirds of the coal we burn to generate electricity in the UK is imported. He might not be aware yet that, as of 9.5 this morning, 46% of all the electricity being generated in Britain today is from coal-fired stations. Given those two factors and his determination, as he has said in the past, to put the “coal” into coalition, may I urge him to put the “sense” into sensible and get on with developing a short-term strategy for coal to protect the indigenous industry in the UK?

[Mr Hayes]

That is a good point. There is a good argument for making a clear statement about how we see coal developing in the short to medium term. It is absolutely right that we pursue CCS. Perhaps we will get the chance to say more about that later in these questions—who knows, Mr Speaker? The hon. Gentleman is right, and I will certainly consider making a statement on that. The appropriate time for that will be when we make further progress at Daw Mill, Thoresby and Kellingley. He is right. The Government can learn from the Opposition, and the wise Ministers on the Front Bench recognise that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Thursday 31st January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

It is critical that both the cost and availability of capital underpin the investment I have described, and that is particularly true, as the hon. Gentleman says, for small and medium-sized enterprises. We are working on that with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—my former Department—but given that he has raised the matter in this way, I will look at it again and report back directly to him.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

We heard the Minister talk about the certainty and clarity of the new arrangements and contracts for difference, but those of us serving on the Energy Bill Committee have in recent weeks heard evidence from ScottishPower, the Royal Bank of Scotland, RenewableUK and others, about the importance of the three-year transitional period. This morning we have the opportunity to vote for a Labour amendment to the Energy Bill that would ensure that if there is any delay, that three-year period of transition will remain. Will the Minister confirm whether he will be voting for that amendment, and if not, why not?

[Mr Hayes]

I never confirm what I am going to do about amendments until I have heard the arguments, and as I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, it would be premature for me to consider his amendment in the House at this time and not in Committee. On the specifics of the issue, we have allowed an overlap between the renewables obligation and the new arrangements, specifically and particularly because we want businesses to be able to adapt to the new system.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Hayes]

I was looking at that Ruskin quotation last night, as it happens, and wondering whether I could weave it in.

The hon. Gentleman has been notable for his support for nuclear power, because he understands its significance to the energy mix. He is right: there are very different views in Cumbria, and we should not characterise them in a casual fashion. Of course we will continue to work with local communities who understand the importance of long-term disposal in the same way as the hon. Gentleman and many of his friends in Cumbria.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

If the Minister were concerned about transparency, he would have voted for our amendments to the Energy Bill earlier this week, which would have increased transparency and given comfort to my hon. Friend the Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) and many others.

As for yesterday’s decision in Cumbria, the Minister has rightly noted that west Cumbrian authorities voted to support the study, although the county council did not. The Secretary of State said that he would embark on a new drive to make the case for waste disposal to other communities. This morning the president of his party, the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron)—who is not in the Chamber—was quoted in the Financial Times as saying that Oxfordshire was more suitable. Is that the policy of the party that is the Minister’s coalition partner, and, if so, has it been discussed with the Prime Minister?

[Mr Hayes]

We will have discussions with the communities who understand the significance of this and its potential value to them, and of course those discussions will be ongoing.

Let me be clear about transparency. In the Bill Committee to which he referred, the hon. Gentleman has repeatedly made the case for a more transparent approach, and I am sympathetic to that argument. This Government must be characterised by openness in the way in which they conduct their affairs, in this matter and in all matters.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Thursday 13th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

I would never be so impertinent as to raise the policy of another sovereign state in such a call. However, my hon. Friend is right to say that the future of coal is clean coal. That is the way forward and it is why we are running our £1 billion competition. May I draw the House’s attention to the conclusion of the UK CCS cost reduction task force, whose members I met yesterday afternoon? It has said clearly that coal power stations equipped with CCS have

“clear potential to be cost competitive with other forms of low-carbon”

technology.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

In his evidence to the Liaison Committee earlier this week, the Prime Minister talked about the importance of CCS in relation to gas and coal generation, saying:

“Here are some funds. Let us have demonstrator projects and all the rest of it.”

The “all the rest of it” is the European Commission saying in correspondence to me that the UK did not secure up to €600 million of match funding because the Treasury would not confirm co-funding. It is also the Cabinet Office project assessment review—it is previously unpublished but I have obtained a copy—stating that “only” £200 million is “available”. How does the Minister expect there ever to be progress in developing commercial CCS if the Government’s financial commitment falls so far short of the Prime Minister’s warm words?

[Mr Hayes]

I can tell the hon. Gentleman, although I am in a sense disappointed to do so, because he will not have been privy to the information I gave the House until I provided it a few moments ago, that that was not the reason given by the European Commissioner—[Interruption.] The Commissioner did not say that to me in our telephone conversation. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman will know that in that first round no CCS project received support—there was some thought that a French project might, but in the end it did not. The second round will begin next spring and will be completed next year. I have made it very clear that we will work as a Government, with Europe, to ensure that our projects have the very best chance of receiving that additional funding.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Thursday 1st November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

The principle of using biomass as a feed of the kind that my hon. Friend suggests will have had a boost since, as Minister, I have cut the red tape and made it more straightforward. I share her view. I did it very quickly, because I like to do things quickly when it is in the public interest so to do.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Clean energy infrastructure also includes carbon capture and storage, which is widely supported on both sides of the House. The coalition agreement, lauded by all members of the ministerial team and, I am sure, everyone sitting behind them this morning, made a commitment to fund four commercial scale CCS projects in the UK. Does that commitment still stand?

[Mr Hayes]

The competition to which the hon. Gentleman refers will allow a record level of investment in carbon capture and storage, in which Britain is a world leader. It is critical that in dealing with emissions we recognise what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said and what the hon. Gentleman has acknowledged, which is that carbon capture and storage can be a vital part of those ambitions.

[Tom Greatrex]

I am sure the industry, which has expressed some concern over the past couple of days, will have heard the failure of the Minister to confirm whether those four projects will still be funded. Is he not concerned that without any firm commitment on funding by the UK Government, the prospects of securing the European Commission funding under the NER300 funding stream, which the UK did so much to put in place, are limited? Does he not understand the anxiety of those seeking to develop CCS that his failure to give a clear signal to the Commission could jeopardise access to up to €600 million, which could make the difference, as he says, in ensuring that our lead in CCS is realised?

Fuel Prices

Debate between John Hayes and Tom Greatrex

Thursday 13th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

That is a typically incisive and insightful contribution from my hon. Friend. I will say a little more about volatility, but the House will have heard his argument. It seems to me to be as impressive as his arguments usually are, and I shall certainly give further consideration to the matter.

In the spirit of being open-minded—this is, of course, an immensely open-minded Government—let me mention the Wheatley review into LIBOR, which is considering whether benchmarks or indices in other markets also need to be looked at. It will, of course, include this market and it aims to publish its conclusions by the end of September. I look forward, too, to the recommendations from the International Organisation of Securities Commissions, and the Government will consider how to take those forward in the G20 and how to implement them in the UK to ensure oil price benchmarks are not open to manipulation. As a result of this debate, however, and of the arguments made by my hon. Friends and others, I will write to the Financial Services Authority about the concerns raised here today. There is no point in our having these sorts of debates if they do not inform and inspire Government policy. In the case of this Minister, they will do just that.

It is absolutely right that we enhance transparency in the oil and commodity markets. The Government continue work to improve the functioning of the global market and to reduce price volatility through engaging with key oil-producing countries to promote investment in oil production and responsible behaviour in the market—the matter raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) a few moments ago. To that end, we have also championed a new charter for the International Energy Forum, and we will continue to monitor closely the impact of initiatives being taken in several other G20 countries, including Germany and Austria, to improve fuel price transparency.

Demand is another issue, and reducing the UK’s long-term dependency on oil and petroleum products is a Government priority. This includes developing ultra-low-carbon vehicles, high-speed rail networks and renewable heat incentives. We are working within the G20 to reduce oil demand globally—for example, through the work to reduce fossil fuel subsidies. At the same time, it is important to ensure that the market is well supplied, and we are working with the International Energy Agency, including on post-Libya stock release.

The Office of Fair Trading call for evidence is central to our considerations today. I encourage all Members to submit evidence to the OFT, and I know that many who have spoken in the debate will do just that. Of course we must not intervene until that call for evidence is complete. My Department believes that changes in the price of crude are indeed passed on to the pumps, although, as is clear from the data, there is a considerable time lag. There is certainly a case for greater transparency, about which, as my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow will know, the OFT has specifically asked for evidence.

In summary—this is not my final summary, Mr Deputy Speaker, but merely my preliminary summary: I did not want to dampen the enthusiasm with which my speech was being met—I strongly welcome the OFT’s decision to call for more information about the way in which the petrol retail market works.

As has been said, the OFT has said that it will consider whether reductions in the price of crude oil are being reflected in falling pump prices; whether the practices of supermarkets, which have been mentioned by a number of Members today, and major oil companies may be making it more difficult for independent retailers to compete with them—I shall say more about that in a moment; whether there is a lack of competition between fuel retailers in some remote communities in the UK; and whether the concern about price co-ordination and the structure of road fuels markets that has been expressed by other national competition authorities is relevant in the UK. That is a first step, and reflects the fact that, to date—as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South—no clear evidence has yet been provided to demonstrate that there is reason for concern about competition in the market. Nevertheless, the inquiry is welcome: I want to make that absolutely clear.

I ask my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow, and other Members with an interest in the subject, to engage with the OFT’s study—I have no doubt that my hon. Friend was going to do so anyway, but I wanted to place that on the record—and to participate fully, as my Department will: I commit myself today to ensuring that that happens. What is important at this stage is for Members or their constituents who have evidence relevant to the scope of the OFT's call for information to make it available before 17 October.

As I have said, my Department’s analysis shows that changes in the wholesale price of crude, both increases and decreases, are passed on, but I shall nevertheless ask my officials to look at the matter again and revisit their analysis, as a direct result of the debate and my hon. Friend’s wider contribution to discussions on this subject.

The important issue of what might be called “fuel deserts” was also raised today. The OFT is seeking evidence relating to the decline in the number of independent petrol stations and the rise of hypermarkets. That too has been mentioned by a number of Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington South and my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford. The Government have taken tough action in the past to address the potential of local monopolies. For example, this summer, following an OFT investigation, Shell gave undertakings to sell a number of its petrol stations because of concerns of this kind.

Some Members mentioned the problems of rurality. The hon. Member for Inverclyde (Mr McKenzie) and my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice) represent rural constituencies, and I am quite deeply affected by the problems myself. I know from my own experience in Lincolnshire that rural communities can be disadvantaged when the number of petrol retailers falls and journeys to obtain petrol and diesel become longer. I will also ask my officials to look at the relationship between storage capacity and the declining number of retailers; the picture is mixed because of the size of tanks that are kept in different places, but I am interested in the issue.

Independent petrol stations are often located in more rural areas, and can provide a valuable service for local communities. As was mentioned by the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex), there is concern about the effect on rural resilience in the event of further closures of such petrol stations. As I said earlier, the OFT has signalled that it is seeking evidence relating to the decline in the number of independent petrol stations and the rise of the hypermarket retailers, to which the hon. Gentleman and others referred. I particularly thank my hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) for emphasising the effect that that has on his constituents. I must make it clear again that the Government have not been reluctant to take action in the past, and would be happy to do so again if the evidence legitimised such action.

Earlier this year, my Department commissioned a study of the retail market for road fuels, to develop further our evidence base on the size and shape of the market and our knowledge of the impact of the structural change to the market over recent years. I will write to interested Members with details of the findings in due course and share them with the OFT. That is what it says in my script, but I will do more than that: I will write to all Members of the House, because I know that all Members are interested in these matters. We will keep the whole House fully informed of the steps the Government are taking.

As a result of the arguments my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow has made today, I will also instruct my officials to ensure that this study should include detailed analysis of how far people have to travel to reach their nearest petrol station, and how this has changed over time. He may count that as a significant victory for him and a tribute to the work he has done.

In conclusion—

[Tom Greatrex]

rose—

[Mr Hayes]

Before moving to my exciting peroration, I shall happily give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Tom Greatrex]

While the Minister is in the mood to instruct his officials to do various things in response to this debate, may I reiterate my point about the work the previous Transport Secretary said would happen, but which it appears the Department is now saying will not happen until after an OFT inquiry? Will the Minister look into that, and see whether it could happen sooner rather than later?

[Mr Hayes]

I thought that was the best point among many that the shadow Minister made in his speech. The OFT plans to report in January 2013. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is looking specifically at the issue of transparency, and we want to feed its findings into our work. I will certainly take a look at the timing issue he describes, however, to make sure we are acting in a coherent and consistent way.