Criminal Justice Bill

Debate between John Hayes and Meg Hillier

2nd reading
Tuesday 28th November 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir John Hayes]

Does the hon. Lady agree that perpetual shoplifters of the kind she describes, who intimidate people and make the lives of shopkeepers and shop assistants a misery, should be banged up?

[Dame Meg Hillier]

Again, I find myself breaking out in agreement with the right hon. Gentleman.

If the sanction is too low, people will keep doing it. As with county lines, it is clear that criminal gangs are often using and exploiting vulnerable people to do their dirty work. Those vulnerable people get caught, but we do not get Mr Big. Shoplifting is becoming an epidemic in many of our areas.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Meg Hillier]

I absolutely am. I recommend to my right hon. Friend our report of this year and, I am sorry to say, our back history of reports on this issue, because things have moved so slowly that people might as well read the 2017 report as not much has moved on since.

I am going to come on to the issue of how reporting works, because the Bill misses an opportunity there.

[Sir John Hayes]

The right hon. Lady may recall that when I was a Home Office Minister—we are all sharing our Home Office histories here—we set up the National Cyber Security Centre and the national cyber-security strategy. We have made significant progress, but she is right to say that, as with shoplifting, fraud and cyber-crime are at epidemic levels. Part of that is about the way we constructed systems that are interdependent, interconnected and interoperable. Sometimes that adds to vulnerability, so we must change culturally how we go about doing business and interacting.

[Dame Meg Hillier]

I do not dispute what the right hon. Gentleman says, but there is a danger that that lets the Home Office off the hook. In the five or six years during which the Public Accounts Committee has been looking at the issue, fraud has got worse. Indeed, I was dealing with some of the issues when I was a Home Office Minister, and we are seeing a growth in the crime but not a growth in the action in response to it. That is not surprising, as the volume and complexity of cases are overwhelming police forces and Action Fraud, the civil body to which people report such crime.

The point that the right hon. Gentleman makes about interdependency is valid. Because the Home Office is dependent on the banking, technology, telecoms and retail sectors to fight fraud, its response has been slow and sluggish, relying on voluntary agreements with organisations in those sectors to deliver change. Frankly, those agreements have not delivered enough. The banks were reluctant to give evidence at all to the Public Accounts Committee—I suggest to the Chair of the Home Affairs Committee, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), that she pushes the banks to give more information—and when we suggested publicly reporting fraud levels against the banks, they were apoplectic. We ended up recommending slightly time-delayed reporting as a way of keeping institutions on their toes, so that customers could vote with their feet and know exactly which banks were on top of dealing with fraud. We think that the different sectors where fraud is happening could do more.

Over 70% of fraud has an international element, so whatever we do domestically will not resolve the situation unless we have better relationships with overseas criminal justice agencies. This is immature in the Home Office currently, as we concluded in our report published earlier this year, and the matter is not helped by the lack of capacity in the UK. Only 1% of police are dedicated to fraud, yet it represents 41% of crime. The Home Secretary said that percentage balancing was not possible, but we can all acknowledge that if 1% of police officers are dedicated to fraud and 41% of crime is fraud then the balance is out of kilter.

Some 20,000 new police officers are being recruited, which is a welcome step, but only around 2% of them—some 380 officers—will be focused on fraud. The Public Accounts Committee looked at new officer recruitment; recruiting fast can mean that a lot of junior staff are recruited, not the specialists that are needed, so there has been a missed opportunity. I will not go into that further, as it is outside the scope of the Bill.

Public communications could be improved by the Home Office, working in partnership with others, as campaigns can be effective. When the Committee looked at communications this year, there were 13 public campaigns running about fraud, but fewer than 10% of citizens were aware of any of them. We raised the matter five years ago, when the Take Five campaign was run by the National Crime Agency. However, five years on, that campaign is still being evaluated, so it is not working very well.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North raised the issue of fraud not being reported by people. Only 300,000 cases were reported to Action Fraud by the public, which given the overall numbers is not very many, and another 600,000 were reported by business and industry. Of the 900,000 cases reported annually, fewer than 15% end up with further action and only 1% result in a criminal justice outcome. Action Fraud is set to be replaced in the new year, yet the Bill does not mention the victim experience, which is a missed opportunity. I hope that will be probed further by members of the Bill Committee.

It is sobering that the time taken by law enforcement agencies to take on and tackle fraud is often longer than the sentence that the fraudster receives, so something is going wrong. We need a concerted effort to deal with this wicked issue, which cuts across many areas.

The measure relating to intimate images is welcome. I pay tribute to my previous constituent, Emily, who has now moved back to the United States, who worked tirelessly over a period of years to shift the dial on the issue, after she was filmed naked without her consent. I held an Adjournment debate in April 2018 calling for exactly this issue to be addressed and made an offence. New section 66AA sets out three offences of taking or recording intimate photographs or film, including an offence of “intentionally” taking a photograph or recording a film that shows another person in an intimate state without that person’s consent or a reasonable belief in their consent.

This is a moment to pay tribute to Emily Hunt, who bravely named herself, took on the system and was a force of nature in making sure the issue was tackled. We could not understand why the crime of taking such a photograph was not identified in law. At the time, the fact the person who had taken it had not published it was the issue, but this measure has now been introduced and it would have protected Emily. My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) highlighted what happens to many young teenagers, particularly teenage girls, so this measure acts as a protection. In addition, we need to ensure we educate people that such behaviour should not happen. As the Bill makes progress, I hope some of those issues will be picked up in Committee.

Energy Tariffs

Debate between John Hayes and Meg Hillier

Thursday 18th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

Alacrity and the defence of the common good lie at the heart of all I do.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

If you were to wander through the corridors of the big six energy companies today, Mr. Speaker, you would hear the sound of low tariffs being ripped up and thrown in the bin. How, through legislation, can the Minister seriously make it an option for the lowest tariff offered to be low and affordable, rather than being set by the energy companies to suit their profit margins?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady is right—as she so often is, by the way—to suggest that we need a robust relationship with the energy companies. Of course they are partners in this process, but none the less we will take the necessary steps to ensure that the people get the best possible deal, for we are the people’s party and the people’s Government.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Meg Hillier

Thursday 24th May 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

Absolutely. The survey that I have just mentioned—the biggest survey, producing the best ever results in terms of satisfaction—showed that 92% of apprentices were satisfied with their apprenticeship, and that 88% of the businesses that took on apprentices felt they had gained a business benefit. That information is critical to guiding our policy, described last week by the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee, which I went before dutifully, as a flagship. My apprenticeship policy: our victory.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Hackney community college does excellent innovative work on apprenticeships, but along with other further education colleges it faces a 7% cut this year. Earlier, the Minister waxed lyrical about increasing social mobility, and in my constituency and others in east London, further education is a crucial way for adults who missed out to get back on track, often even before they get to the apprenticeship stage. What message does the Minister have for my constituents, as the college has to cut back further?

[Mr Hayes]

The message is plain: further education has never been given the priority in the past that it has been given by this Government. It is about the flexibilities and freedoms to respond to need in the hon. Lady’s constituency and elsewhere. Further education, once the Cinderella sector, when I became the Minister found its Prince Charming.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Meg Hillier

Thursday 2nd February 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)]

I am delighted that my hon. Friend has raised that matter again, as he has done frequently. He has done much work in Banbury in this area. The important thing to do next is to match the businesses to the young people. We can do that by getting businesses into schools and by speed-dating—that is an exciting prospect, is it not, Mr Speaker? We must use all modern media to ensure that young people know about the jobs and opportunities that exist—where they are, what they are and how they can find them.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

T5. Somethin’ Else is a design and creation company on Silicon roundabout in my constituency. It employs 65 people and recently produced a film that was shown at the Conservative party conference. Recently, it has been battling with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs over disproportionate fines for the alleged late payment of tax. That has led to a fine of more than £25,000. Given HMRC’s deals with large corporations and the Government’s professed support for small businesses, which the Secretary of State has reiterated today, what discussions is the Department having with HMRC and the Treasury to ensure that businesses are aware that it is on their side and that the Government are acting in a joined-up fashion so that punitive tax attacks are not made on small businesses?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between John Hayes and Meg Hillier

Monday 16th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hayes]

The right hon. Gentleman will know that the E-bac—the core curriculum that we are developing—is sufficiently small to allow space for all kinds of other activities, including those relating to music, art and culture, as well. Certainly, it is the view of the Secretary of State and the whole Government that enriching a child’s education through their experience of art, music and culture is at the heart of good education.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

My constituency is one of the hotbeds of creative activity with a very high percentage of artists and creative businesses, and the schools have followed that through. However, I know from recent visits to primary schools such as Brook community primary school, which has excellent enrichment through the arts, that they are worried about future funding and are already having to make cuts in those areas. Will the Minister explain what the Government’s financial policy is to back up the warm words he just uttered?

[Mr Hayes]

I mentioned in my first answer the commitment we have made to music. The important thing about that commitment is that we have been very clear over the long term about what schools can expect to receive, and that will help with financial planning. The new music education hubs will help to bring this together. That recommendation very much arose from the original investigation we did. Art is not the study of positive reality; in Ruskin’s words, it is “seeking for ideal truth”. It is that spirit that imbues all this Government do.