Sentencing Bill

Debate between John Hayes and Ben Maguire

Committee of the whole House
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Commons Chamber

[Sir John Hayes]

As my right hon. Friend says with her typical clarity and passion, it may be that the Government bow to public pressure—and there will undoubtedly be public pressure of a kind she describes. We are speaking about people who have done serious harm, including sex offenders of the most extreme kind and violent repeat offenders. These are not people who have committed minor indiscretions; they are very serious criminals. The public will resist their release and protest about it, and the Minister may well feel obliged, as I am sure he is a man of principle, to return to the House and amend the legislation when its effects are truly and fully seen.

My judgment would be that the facts speak for themselves: thousands of people will be let out of prison who certainly should not be. The reasons are as I described them; they are practical, but there is an underlying sentiment that I tried to articulate: it is a fear of punishment and an unwillingness to recognise the retributive nature of criminal justice. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Tatton (Esther McVey) set out far more eloquently than I ever could, the effects are likely to be devastating for our constituents and communities across the country—and bear in mind that it will happen in every part of this country, every constituency will suffer as a result of the legislation. Each one of us will, as good constituency MPs, have to cope with some of these effects.

The alternative is, as I described when responding to an earlier intervention, to look at every possible means of accommodating people in prison who deserve to be incarcerated—

[Ben Maguire (North Cornwall) (LD)]

rose—

[Sir John Hayes]

I am coming to my exciting finale, but I will happy give way on the way to it.

[Ben Maguire]

I thank the hon. Member for giving way. Does he agree with his hon. Friend the Member for Fareham and Waterlooville (Suella Braverman) that the Conservative Government’s record on prison building was shameful? The former “Minister for Common Sense”, the hon. Member for Tatton (Esther McVey), has been nodding along when Members have said that we need to build more prisons. It certainly sounds like common sense, but why on earth did the Conservative Government not do that?

[Sir John Hayes]

On a purely technical point, I am right hon. and so are my right hon. Friends the Members for Tatton and for Fareham and Waterlooville (Suella Braverman), but let us put that to one side. It is a matter of public record that I almost never disagree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Fareham and Waterlooville. The truth is, she is right: we should have built more prisons much earlier. We could have anticipated these things—they can be modelled, after all. By the way, Governments are often surprisingly poor at modelling—I saw that throughout my time in government—but we should have modelled this, given the trend change in the prison population.

Serious Fraud Office

Debate between John Hayes and Ben Maguire

Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Westminster Hall

[Ben Maguire (North Cornwall) (LD)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir John. I thank the hon. Member for Hendon (David Pinto-Duschinsky) for securing this important debate. As the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) just pointed out, last year alone fraud accounted for a staggering 40% of crimes against individuals in England and Wales. This is not a faceless crime; behind every one of those statistics is a victim, someone who has been left not only financially worse off, but emotionally distressed, fearful and often devastated. Whether it is a vulnerable pensioner scammed out of their life savings or a small business misled into paying false invoices, the human impact of fraud is real and growing.

We have already heard about the devastating impact of romantic fraud, as highlighted by the hon. Member for Clwyd North (Gill German), and the hon. Member for Strangford outlined the increase in fraudulent calls offering things such as fake holidays. I have heard from countless constituents in North Cornwall—hard-working people, whether they are pensioners or young adults saving for a first home—who have fallen victim to online fraud, authorised push payment scams and identity theft. They feel ignored, disempowered and unprotected. Far too often, they felt like the system just did not care. For them, justice feels out of reach, and that is because sadly, in most cases, it is.

Despite the enormous scale of this crime, only around 2% of recorded frauds are actually referred to local police forces for investigation. The vast majority of victims never see their cases taken forward, let alone justice done. That simply is not good enough. The Liberal Democrats believe that it is time to move beyond empty promises and underfunded initiatives and take bold, decisive action. We have set out in our manifesto a comprehensive plan to tackle fraud because we recognise it for what it is: a national emergency hiding in plain sight.

We would establish a dedicated online crime agency, a national body designed specifically to tackle online fraud, co-ordinate investigations across forces and employ the kind of digital expertise that is urgently needed to tackle cyber-enabled crimes. Right now, fraudsters exploit jurisdictional boundaries; they use fake identities, offshore servers and untraceable digital accounts. Victims in Cornwall, for example, might be targeted by criminals operating from London, Lagos or Luxembourg, and our existing systems are not designed to cope with that level of sophistication or scale. A specialist online crime agency could plug that gap.

The hon. Member for Hendon rightly pointed out how big banks need to seriously step up. We would name and shame banks with the worst records on preventing fraud and compensating victims. If we do not hold institutions accountable for allowing these scams to happen under their watch, nothing will change. In 2023 alone, criminals stole £1.2 billion from individuals through banking fraud and scams. While banks have improved reimbursement rates, nearly 40% of authorised payment fraud losses still go completely uncompensated.

While it is welcome news that, from October, payment providers will be required by law to reimburse victims of authorised push payment fraud, regulation alone will not be enough. We need pressure and transparency, so that banks feel real accountability to their customers. That is why we would launch a high-profile national fraud awareness campaign, giving people the tools to spot, report and avoid scams. The Government have a duty to act, but the public deserve to be better informed, supported and empowered.

Fraud prevention must be treated as seriously as fire safety, road safety or other forms of crime prevention. We should have national guidance for at-risk groups, and there should be a visible, accessible place to report crimes and get the help they need. Most importantly, we need to do more to support victims. The emotional harm caused by fraud, which has already been laid out by other hon. Members, is often overlooked, yet for many the betrayal, fear and shame of being scammed is as damaging as the financial loss suffered.

A constituent of mine who was the victim of such a devastating economic crime wrote to me of how it not only resulted in his farm business being “crippled”, but led to a detrimental impact on his livelihood, health and wellbeing, causing him worry, stress and severe depression. He ultimately required counselling, and has since been identified as at high risk of suicide, has become a recluse, and suffers from

“a host of health issues with heart and blood pressure problems, bowel cancer, severe migraines”.

Ultimately, it has taken a huge toll on his physical and mental health.

Let me be clear: we cannot continue to treat victims of fraud as if they are to blame for their misfortune, or expect individuals to prevent it. Fraud is a crime—not a mistake or bad luck. It is a deliberate act of deception, and the victims, whether they are small business owners, retirees or university students, to name a few, deserve justice and redress.

That brings me to the Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill, currently making its way through Parliament. On the surface, it offers important tools to recover public money lost to fraud, especially in the welfare system, and of course every pound stolen through fraud is a pound not going to our schools, hospitals or those genuinely in need. However, the Bill as drafted lacks a comprehensive impact assessment. Without that, we risk placing enormous emphasis on clawing back money from ordinary claimants, without matching it with investment in the prevention or prosecution of high-level economic fraud.

What about the billions lost through covid support schemes? Let us not forget that under the last Conservative Government, fraudsters were allowed to get away with billions of pounds of covid support funds. Meanwhile, revenue worth an estimated £38.9 billion a year goes uncollected due to tax evasion and criminal activities. We need a clear, cross-agency, strategic and well-resourced national effort to tackle economic crime and fraud, and the Serious Fraud Office has a central role to play in that. The hon. Member for Kensington and Bayswater (Joe Powell) has already called for a much more joined-up approach between the SFO, the NCA, HMRC and other agencies.

The SFO is the very agency tasked with investigating some of the most complex and serious frauds in the country, yet it remains under-resourced, underpowered, and far too often underperforming. We have seen well-publicised failures, with high-profile cases being dropped, poor conviction rates and concerns raised about its investigatory capacity. The SFO has been left to firefight with nowhere near the scale of investment it needs to pursue the most complex, high-value economic crimes.

If we are serious about tackling corporate fraud, money laundering and criminal networks exploiting our economy, we must give the SFO the independence and resources it so desperately needs. We need a Serious Fraud Office with teeth. That means increasing funding, improving oversight and ensuring that its leadership has the freedom to pursue complex cases without any interference. It also means ensuring that it works hand in hand with the National Crime Agency, local forces and international partners.

Fraud is not victimless. It targets the vulnerable and undermines trust in our financial systems. It is draining billions from our economy. I urge the Solicitor General and the Government to act—not just to reform the SFO but to lead a co-ordinated and compassionate national effort to protect our constituents from fraud and economic crimes. This Government and every Government have a moral duty to offer more than token support. We must build a justice system that investigates fraud robustly, prosecutes it swiftly and protects those most at risk of harm. The people of my constituency of North Cornwall, and communities across this country, expect and deserve nothing less.

[Sir John Hayes (in the Chair)]

I call the shadow Solicitor General.