Oral Answers to Questions
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 5 months ago)
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Grahame Morris (Easington) (Lab)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
The Government recognise the urgency of the issue and are committed to progressing the work as quickly as we can. For that reason, we have appointed an expert group to advise the Cabinet Office on detailed technical considerations. On Monday in the other place, the Government committed to bring forward an amendment to the Victims and Prisoners Bill on Report, with the intention of speeding up the implementation of the Government’s response to the infected blood inquiry.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle
My constituent Mark Ward, a haemophiliac, contracted HIV after being given contaminated blood at the Royal Free Hospital. He was 14. He is now 54, and it is four and a half years since he gave evidence at the inquiry and a year since the initial recommendations came out. It is a scandal, is it not, that the Government were forced to give in by a defeat in the other place? Frankly, the Government have been complicit in people’s lives continuing to be lost. How long before compensation will be paid? What date should I give Mr Ward? How many people’s lives will be lost while we wait for the Government to get into action?
John Glen
There are 54 working days before the report is published on Monday 20 May. The Government have committed to respond to it within 25 sitting days, but I will do everything I can to bring forward as substantive a response as possible as soon as possible after that date.
Alex Davies-Jones
My constituent Gerald Stone, a victim of the contaminated blood scandal, is 80 years old. He is in and out of hospital and is having to take morphine for the insurmountable pain he suffers. After bravely giving evidence to the public inquiry and the public seeing that story, his lifelong neighbours began to question whether it was safe to live on the same street as him and even went to the police. Victims such as Gerald deal with the physical and mental consequences every day, but one query he has for the Minister is the figure of 30,000 potential claimants, which has been disputed regularly and is one reason for the hold-up in providing justice. Will the Minister provide clarity on that figure?
John Glen
I am trying to ensure a comprehensive response as soon as possible. That is why we have appointed Professor Sir Jonathan Montgomery to head up a team to advise on how to implement the recommendations of the report. I am doing that as quickly as I can. There are issues around eligibility, the severity of disease and its progression, and so on, which I need to be sure on so that I can address the challenges that exist. With respect to the 30,000 figure, I cannot give a number from the Dispatch Box, but I will ensure that the Government response, when it comes, will be as comprehensive as possible, to give some assurance to the hon. Lady’s constituent.
Kerry McCarthy
ITV is now set to produce a drama about the contaminated blood scandal, following the success of “Mr Bates vs The Post Office”. As we know, thousands of people have been affected by the scandal, including my constituents, Catherine, who lost her husband in 2005, and Margaret, who lost her husband Bill in 2021. Bill was a local councillor. I knew him very well. He was an absolutely lovely man. He was also a trustee of the Haemophilia Society. Some people, including Bill, have been fighting this battle for 40 years. Why has it taken us this long to get to this point? Will it really take a TV drama to make the Government finally act?
John Glen
I am aware of the comments about a TV drama, but I am concerned to ensure that we build on the decision of this place on 4 December with respect to the Victims and Prisoners Bill. That Bill is working its way through the other place. Committee will finish on 12 March, so Report stage cannot happen before 15 April. Listening to the testimony of the hon. Lady and of those in the other place, whose nephews and husbands died as a result of contaminated blood, has made me more determined to ensure that the Government’s response is as comprehensive as possible and that it meets the expectations of everyone in this place and of the country at large.
Dame Diana Johnson
I think the Minister is a good man and is trying to do his best, but this is the biggest treatment scandal in the history of the NHS. We have had six years of a public inquiry. The Government have now had the recommendations on compensation for 12 months. I understand that the Minister has not yet met anyone infected or affected, or taken any soundings from any of the campaign groups. Now, we hear in a written question this week that his expert group were not allowed to know the names of those people or to have the minutes of those meetings or of any of the workings that are taking place. Does he understand that, after decades of cover-up and criminal activity, the lack of transparency with which the infected and affected are being treated is totally unacceptable?
John Glen
I explained to the right hon. Lady when I met her on 6 February, and again when I spoke to her on 8 February, the context of Professor Sir Jonathan Montgomery’s appointment. As she knows, Sir Brian recommends that eligibility for compensation includes those with hepatitis C, HIV and all chronic cases of hepatitis B.
On the right hon. Lady’s question about engagement with the groups, I am very keen to engage when the Report stage happens in the middle of April. I will then work on plans to engage with as many groups as possible across the United Kingdom, building on my conversations with representatives of the devolved Administrations on 6 February.
Grahame Morris
Since the recommendations of the infected blood inquiry were announced, another 82 victims of the scandal have sadly died. I note what the Minister said about the appointment of Sir Jonathan Montgomery as chair of the experts offering technical advice on the compensation talks, but may I express the anger of one of my constituents, who is a victim of the scandal, about that appointment? He has asked me to ask: what confidence can victims have in the compensation process when an individual who is linked to pharmaceutical firm Bayer—a company that supplied infected blood—and chairs the Oxford University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust, which was at the epicentre of the scandal, is advising the Cabinet Office?
John Glen
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. The appointment of Sir Jonathan Montgomery was compliant with all the processes, similar to those used for the appointment of Sir Robert Francis and others. I recognise the concern expressed around Jonathan’s involvement with Bayer. That ceased at the end of October last year. He was part of an independent advisory group—not making executive decisions—for the pharmaceutical company. In the other place, the noble Baroness Brinton described Sir Jonathan as a “well-respected ethicist”. He has been asked not for further recommendations, but to advise the Government on the implementation of the recommendations made in the report. I hope that is helpful.
Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)
Like other Members, I have constituents and friends who have been profoundly affected by the scandal, through both hepatitis and HIV. I recognise that my right hon. Friend is working extremely hard to come up with a solution to move the conversation forward, but can he update the House on any conversations he has had with the Treasury on delivering compensation as swiftly as possible once it is available?
John Glen
Conversation about this is taking place all the time across Whitehall. That will continue at pace as we move towards the 20 May publication. My determination is to bring forward as substantive a response as possible on the compensation issue as soon as possible after that. Obviously, those conversations happen over time, but I undertake to update the House at the next opportunity when there is something substantive to say.
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
In his second interim report, of 5 April 2023, Sir Brian Langstaff set out:
“I recommend that a compensation scheme should be set up now and it should begin work this year.”
Now we are into the next year, 2024, and the scheme has not been set up. We have no timetable from the Government on when work will begin. The Minister does not need to wait until 20 May for the final report. Can the Minister tell the victims’ groups, who have waited for so long, whether he has persuaded the Chancellor to include the funding for the scheme in next week’s Budget, and when will the first substantive payments be made?
John Glen
I think the right hon. Gentleman will understand that I cannot pre-announce aspects of the Budget, but his general point about urgency is one that I hear, as I said to him when I met him before the February recess. As I also explained, Report stage in this place on 4 December left us with legislation that was not fit for purpose, which is why further changes need to be made. Those changes are being made as urgently as possible.
On Monday of this week, the Government committed that on Report in the other place, we will bring forward the appropriate amendment to enable that arm’s length body to be created with the legal functions and UK-wide remit that is necessary. I have been working closely with Earl Howe, meeting with him as the Bill has gone through the other place. However, I cannot announce aspects of the Budget in any form—I hope the right hon. Gentleman will forgive me.
Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
The Prime Minister has been clear that he will lead a Government of
“integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level.”
He is delivering on that promise. I met Sir Laurie Magnus, the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests, in November.
Munira Wilson
A survey published just this week by the Institute for Government revealed that two thirds of the public do not believe that the Government behave according to high ethical standards. I do not think anyone in the House will be surprised by that, given the behaviour we have seen from some—particularly former—Ministers over the past five years. Even in the last few weeks, questions have been raised about potential breaches of the ministerial code by the Business Secretary, and we have seen failure rewarded constantly with outrageous severance payments. Will the Minister finally fully enshrine the ministerial code into law?
John Glen
That matter has been discussed. The Committee on Standards in Public Life did not recommend that in 2021, because it would afford significant authority to a body that is outwith accountability to the House.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
As the Minister has seen, many questions have been asked today on the infected blood scandal. Will he confirm that it is no part of the Government’s decision-making process on the timescale of granting compensation payments to create the fiscal headroom needed for the much anticipated pre-election tax cuts in next week’s Budget?
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
I can confirm that is not the case.
Mr McFadden
Baroness Mone and her husband made a £60 million profit on a £200 million contract for personal protective equipment, much of which the NHS deemed unusable. The couple, reportedly, have had £75 million of assets frozen, but they also have a horse running in Britain’s favourite horserace, the grand national. That is not racing’s fault, but would it not be a grand national disgrace if the owners were able to walk away with winnings while taxpayers are still waiting to get their money back from being sold a mountain of unusable PPE?
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
John Glen
I respectfully reject that characterisation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government have spent £400 million of taxpayers’ money since October 2022. The arrangements for the distribution of further compensation payments are obviously being considered at this point, and, as I said during the extensive exchange that opened this questions session, that work is continuing apace, so that I can produce a comprehensive response from the Government as soon as possible.
Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)
John Glen
I met several union leaders a few weeks ago. On 2 October, the Chancellor announced that the civil service would be capped at the levels that were current at that time, which would save up to £1 billion against the trajectory that was then in place. As of September 2023, there were 496,150 civil servants. It is an important Government responsibility to ensure that we have the right number of civil servants performing effectively and efficiently in public service, and we will continue to work on that.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
What discussions has the Minister had with charities back home in Northern Ireland, such as Beyond The Battlefield and SSAFA, about improving mental health support for veterans who served in Northern Ireland during the troubles? I have extended this invitation in the past, and I extend it again now: will the Minister join me in visiting Portavogie to see the wonderful work of Beyond The Battlefield, which is conducting a project there? We really want to see him there.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Interim payments are, by their very nature, interim; they are paid before final payments. Perhaps the Minister might be able to help me to understand. He just said that works are going on at pace, so when will the interim payments, recommended by Sir Brian Langstaff in April 2023, to parents who lost children and children who lost parents be paid before the final payments are made?
John Glen
As soon as possible, and when the Government’s position is clear.
Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)
On the efficiency of Government Departments, I am sure that Ministers want report by inspectorates that are the responsibility of their Department to be produced in a timely manner. Is the Minister aware that the now sacked chief inspector of borders and immigration has produced 15 reports, which have been sitting on the Home Secretary’s desk, in some cases for over a year? There is complete confusion about how they can be published in the absence of the inspector and his deputy. Will the Minister look into that, and give reassurances to the House that these reports will be published in a timely fashion?
John Glen
My hon. Friend raises a very important matter. I will look into it urgently and come back to him as soon as possible.
Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)
The experience of the last two years has taught us that energy security is now national security. The more we can generate our own renewables, the less reliant on tyrants we will be. Has the Secretary of State asked the National Security Council to report on the national and energy security implications of the Prime Minister’s decision last year to scale back his Government’s energy transition targets? If he has not, why not?
Christian Wakeford (Bury South) (Lab)
On the contaminated blood scandal, why have the Government not named the experts?
John Glen
We have given details of the appointment of Sir Jonathan Montgomery, and a number of other individuals are working on clinical and other matters. It is really important that we get on with this work, and we will report back on their conclusions as soon as we can.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
We know that the Cabinet Office is often focused on making sure that procurement contracts go to small and medium-sized enterprises, but can my hon. Friend tell me what work is being done to make sure that female-led businesses get a chance at those contracts?
Infected Blood Inquiry
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 5 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
On 18 December 2023, I updated the House that the Government would appoint a group of clinical, legal and social care experts to advise the Cabinet Office on detailed technical considerations of responding to the infected blood inquiry’s recommendations on compensation.
Further to my December update, I am today pleased to announce the appointment of Professor Sir Jonathan Montgomery as chair of this expert group. Sir Jonathan will lead the expert group to provide me, the responsible Minister for the Government response to the infected blood inquiry, with technical advice on compensation.
Both my right hon. friend Earl Howe GBE and I have met separately with Sir Jonathan to discuss the technical advice the expert group will provide and are reassured that the group is working as quickly as possible to advise the Government in responding to the inquiry’s recommendations following the publication of the final report.
Sir Jonathan is an experienced healthcare law scholar who has played a leading role in UK public bioethics for many years, having previously chaired the Human Genetics Commission (2009-12), the Nuffield Council on Bioethics (2012-17) and the Health Research Authority (2012-19). Sir Jonathan is currently the chair of the Oxford University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust and professor of healthcare law at University College London. Sir Jonathan received a knighthood in 2019 for his services to bioethics and healthcare law.
Ensuring the victims of the infected blood scandal receive the justice and recognition they deserve remains my top priority and I look forward to working with Sir Jonathan and the expert advisory group to ensure that the Government have the relevant expertise to make informed choices in responding to the inquiry’s recommendations on compensation.
[HCWS254]
Cabinet Office
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 5 months ago)
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Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
John Glen
As I have said, if the House of Commons has indicated its will by the amendment, that piece of legislation moves to the House of Lords and the Government will respond at that point. That is the week after next. That is the process of the House. I have recognised the need to ensure that we get the clinical, legal and care experts in place. They are in place, and they are working on some of the complex issues the hon. Lady alludes to. The psychological support is now in place, but I am doing everything I can in every dimension of this complicated problem to deliver as quickly as I can.
[Official Report, 18 January 2024, Vol. 743, c. 1015.]
Letter of correction from the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General:
An error has been identified in my response to the hon. Member for Newport East (Jessica Morden) in Topical Questions. The correct response should have been:
John Glen
As I have said, if the House of Commons has indicated its will by the amendment, that piece of legislation moves to the House of Lords and the Government will respond at that point. That is the week after next. That is the process of the House. I have recognised the need to ensure that we get the clinical, legal and care experts in place. They are in place, and they are working on some of the complex issues the hon. Lady alludes to. The psychological support will be in place by summer 2024, but I am doing everything I can in every dimension of this complicated problem to deliver as quickly as I can.
Oral Answers to Questions
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 6 months ago)
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Samantha Dixon (City of Chester) (Lab)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
As I set out on 18 December, I am pleased with the progress that we have made in appointing an expert group to assist on technical detailed considerations of those recommendations. It was announced yesterday that the final report will be published on 20 May, and the Government are committed to updating Parliament on the next steps within 25 sitting days of publication.
Samantha Dixon
The publication of the final report into the infected blood scandal has yet again been delayed, causing dismay for hundreds of people, including some of my Chester constituents, who are still waiting for justice. In this matter, time is precious. The Government committed to introducing primary legislation early in the new year to enable the establishment of the compensation scheme. Given that the House has shown its majority support, will the Minister confirm that the Government will now get on with it?
John Glen
I take the will of the House very seriously. That vote was on 4 December as part of the Victims and Prisoners Bill, which will now be working through its next stage in the other place the week after next. I have been working with colleagues across Government to ensure that we are able to respond appropriately at that time.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
The House understands that it is the Minister’s Department that has to co-ordinate government, and that is not an easy thing to do. Does he understand that Sir Robert Francis and Sir Brian Langstaff have made it absolutely clear that the final report will say nothing more about compensation? It is not just the victims of the infected blood scandal who matter; so do the families of those who have already died—they are dying as well. May I say, on behalf of the all-party parliamentary group on haemophilia and contaminated blood—I am sure that the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) would say the same—that 25 days after the report is published in May is too long to wait? People want certainty and need support.
John Glen
I thank my hon. Friend for his empathy with the complexity of delivering this. I recognise the urgency, of course. That is why, over the recess, I had several meetings with officials. We are moving forward with the appointment of the clinical, legal and care experts. However, I recognise that his focus and that of colleagues across the House is on the speed of delivery of payments. Obviously, we made those interim payments further to the first interim report recommendations in October 2022. I will continue to have meetings with colleagues to move this forward as quickly as I can.
Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
The next stage of the Victims and Prisoners Bill in the other place will be the week after next, and that is where the Government will make clear their response to what the Commons has decided. As I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) a few moments ago, the issue of further interim payments will need to be considered in the round as the Government consider the recommendations of the second interim report. We are very aware of the urgency of this. However, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman will understand, there is a lot of complexity with respect to the different cohorts and we are working on those as rapidly as we can with the experts now in place.
Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)
Ending veteran homelessness and rough sleeping has been an absolute passion of the veterans Minister. Can he give us an update on how this is faring after the festive period?
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
John Glen
As I have said, if the House of Commons has indicated its will by the amendment, that piece of legislation moves to the House of Lords and the Government will respond at that point. That is the week after next. That is the process of the House. I have recognised the need to ensure that we get the clinical, legal and care experts in place. They are in place, and they are working on some of the complex issues the hon. Lady alludes to. The psychological support is now in place, but I am doing everything I can in every dimension of this complicated problem to deliver as quickly as I can.
Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)
I have just listened to the Minister’s response, and I appreciate that the situation is complex, but people are dying. My constituent contacted me earlier this week. He has renal failure and cirrhosis of the liver. He wrote asking for
“faster resolution to the infected blood scandal compensation before it is too late for myself and others to see full and final resolution”.
It might be too late for my constituent—he cannot wait two more weeks—but can the Minister outline how many people have received interim payments and how many are still outstanding?
John Glen
A large number of payments were made available quickly in the last quarter of 2022. I fully recognise the absolute tragedy that this is. Every death is a tragedy. This is the biggest scandal in the NHS’s history. I recognise and acknowledge that. The victims’ organisations said that there were 141 deaths last year, and I am doing everything I can to find solutions as quickly as possible.
Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
Arm’s length bodies across Government spend more than £200 billion a year, and my Committee has been looking at that issue. The Government launched the public bodies review programme as part of their latest drive to look at quangos, but there is little in the public domain. Will the Minister commit to publishing the review of individual quangos as it goes through? What will the final publication date be for the outcome of the review?
John Glen
In the spring statement in March 2022, the review of public bodies was announced, as the hon. Lady knows. That will give us significant savings. There are 125 arm’s length body reviews, covering 90% of arm’s length body expenditure. Honestly, I am not familiar with the exact protocols around publication, but I am happy to look into it, and I will come back to her.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Ind)
In 2012, the Cabinet Office rejected my request that it fund the forensic investigation into the Horizon IT system by Second Sight. Indeed, the Cabinet Office insisted that the Post Office pay for its own investigation, which ultimately allowed the Post Office to try to control and coerce the lead investigator Ron Warmington, thus delaying justice for the sub-postmasters. Will the Minister look into the reasoning behind this historic decision and write to me about it, please?
Infected Blood Inquiry: Government Response
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
With permission, I would like to make a statement on the Government’s response to the infected blood inquiry. I made clear my intention to do so at Cabinet Office questions on 23 November, and the Minister of State at the Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Charnwood (Edward Argar), reiterated this on the Floor of the House on 4 December.
First, and most importantly, the suffering of the victims must be recognised. The distress and trauma that each individual has faced as a result of this tragedy is unimaginable, and the Government understand that no measures can fully compensate for the losses and hardships that they have suffered. The priority here must be to ensure that victims get the justice they deserve.
With the interim compensation payments issued last October, the Government recognised the immediate and urgent needs of those most severely impacted. This was the start of the process, not the end. The Government have accepted the moral case for compensation, and I am fully committed to ensuring that we bring this matter to its long-awaited conclusion.
In April 2023, the Government welcomed the publication of the infected blood inquiry’s second interim report, which set out a detailed framework for compensation for both those infected and those affected by infected blood, and it is a significant step towards the culmination of the inquiry’s deeply important work.
The inquiry has taken a wide-ranging and innovative approach to compensation, and I was pleased to see that the Government’s commissioning of Sir Robert Francis KC’s compensation study assisted in the inquiry’s work. It is now a year on from the Government’s acceptance of the moral case for compensation, and I understand the calls for urgency. I know that, from many of those infected and affected, there is anger and frustration with the Government’s response so far.
The inquiry’s recommendations are not without complexity, and it would be inappropriate for the Government to prejudge the findings of the final report. For these reasons, the Government are not yet in a position to share any final decisions on compensation. However, Members on both sides of the House have made it clear that we must do right by the victims, and the Government recognise this. I am personally committed to making sure that we do that.
I also give enormous credit to the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) on her continuing hard work to advocate for the victims of the infected blood scandal. The Government recognise the strength of feeling across the House on this matter and the importance of what the amendment seeks to achieve.
The Government are working through the implications of the amendment. Cabinet Office officials worked hard under my predecessor, my right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Jeremy Quin), to develop this policy, and we are reviewing this work in the light of the amendment made two weeks ago today.
I am also pleased to provide the House with an update on the wider progress we have made in this area, and on the steps we are taking to address the concerns of this House. First, I announce that the Department of Health and Social Care will fully implement a bespoke psychological service for people infected and affected by infected blood products, delivered by NHS England. Our intention is for this service to go live in early summer 2024. We recognise the harrowing impacts of the infected blood scandal and the psychological impact this has had on many infected and affected individuals. This announcement is an important step for victims in England. The service will provide tailored support to meet the unique needs of infected and affected individuals.
The Government are also urgently appointing clinical, legal and social care experts to advise the Cabinet Office on detailed technical considerations early in the new year, which will ensure that the Government have the relevant expertise to make informed choices in responding to the inquiry’s recommendations on compensation.
Finally, I reiterate the commitment that the Government will seek to provide an update to Parliament on next steps through an oral statement within 25 sitting days of the inquiry’s final report being published. As my predecessor made clear both to this House and to the inquiry, there are a number of technical issues that must be considered as they will have a significant impact on public finances. It is important that any decisions on compensation funding are taken carefully, and the House should expect the Government to work through the associated costs to the public sector while, at all times, considering the needs of the community and the far-reaching impact that this scandal has had on their lives.
The victims of the infected blood scandal deserve justice and recognition. Their voice must be heard, and it is our duty to honour not only those still living and campaigning but those who have passed without recognition. This is my highest priority, and I will continue to progress this work with all the urgency it deserves. I commend this statement to the House.
Nick Thomas-Symonds (Torfaen) (Lab)
I welcome the fact that this statement has been made, to which the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice committed at the Dispatch Box earlier this month. I am also grateful to the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General for advance sight of his statement today.
The amendment to the Victims and Prisoners Bill passed by this House makes the will of this House, on a binding and cross-party basis, absolutely clear. I applaud the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), the campaigning and advocacy organisations, the all-party group on haemophilia and contaminated blood, the journalist Caroline Wheeler and all who have worked tirelessly to bring us to this point. I, too, pay tribute to the bravery of the victims of this scandal, who, over decades, have suffered for far too long.
The Government have repeatedly accepted the moral case for compensation, as indeed the Minister did today. On Report, the Minister of State in the MOJ was also definitive in committing that the Government will
“put in place the necessary legislative framework and timescales for a delivery body for compensation for the victims of infected blood to be established, in line with the overall objectives set out”—[Official Report, 4 December 2023; Vol. 742, c. 136-37.]
in the amendment tabled by my right hon. Friend. I say to the Minister: there is no need to wait for the Bill to come back or for the inquiry to publish its final report before making the required urgent progress on setting up the basis for the compensation scheme. The Government should make good on the spirit of that commitment and recognise the will of the House, not least because a commitment to act was also given in the King’s Speech.
I am not suggesting for a moment that this is not a complex matter. However, as my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor and I have repeatedly made clear, we are open to working on a cross-party basis to shape a compensation scheme that can deliver justice urgently. The Government should now establish an arm’s length body to deliver compensation payments, which will allow some of the preparatory work to be done while we wait for those final recommendations. As with any arm’s length body, the Government will be responsible for appointing the chair and the members, and setting the budget and the rules for the scheme and its administration, including on decision making and accountability. I am also conscious that compensation will apply to those infected in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and that there is important work to do with devolved Governments. Of course, I welcome what the Minister said in his statement about psychological support, but will he please tell us why there is a need to wait until the summer of next year for it to go live, given how long this matter has been going on?
I would be grateful if the Minister would also address the following questions. Why can the Government not commit to beginning the steps in January, not just to take the technical advice that he has referred to, but to bring forward primary legislation early in the new year to enable the establishment of the compensation scheme, given that this House has shown its support for that? Will he also commit to continuing to work closely with all the victims’ groups in the future, so that their voice is heard throughout the establishment of the compensation scheme? To the extent that he has announced a timetable today, when might people receive the final compensation? This is so pressing because, on average, one person dies every four days as a result of this scandal. Will he also give a commitment that the Government will act on each and every recommendation in the inquiry’s report? He mentioned a statement 25 working days after the publication of that report, but he did not give a timetable for action on those recommendations—will he give that to the House in his response? Finally, will he confirm what preparatory work is being done by the Treasury? Will he commit to being as transparent as possible about that process? The Government have admitted both the case for compensation and the need for urgency. This House has shown strong cross-party support for action. It now falls to Ministers to deliver urgently.
John Glen
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his constructive approach. There is consensus across the House that this urgent matter needs to be addressed as quickly as possible. As I said at Cabinet Office questions during my second week in post, this is the most urgent priority that I will face, whatever happens in this office, and I take my responsibility to bring forward the scheme very seriously. However, we need to examine carefully the amendment that was passed two weeks ago and how it interacts with work that is under way. I am doing everything I can to bring that work forward. Second Reading of the Victims and Prisoners Bill will happen today in the other place and the process that will follow from that will be clear in the new year.
The right hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific questions. I want to deliver psychological support as quickly as possible, working closely with NHS England on provision of support and allowing people to have direct access to it. I will do everything I can to bring that forward by June, at the latest, I hope. A few months ago, I made an announcement about clinical, legal and social care advisers. Contact has been made with individuals and there will be ongoing conversations to get those people in place as early as possible, so as much work as possible can be done along the lines I have set out.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the 18 recommendations and when people will receive further clarification on Government compensation. Those are substantive matters that will be attended to as quickly as possible, in line with what I have already said. On 17 January, the inquiry will issue a notification about when that report is expected, which will give clarity on the timetable to which we are working. I assure the House that we are doing everything we can to work across relevant Departments, including the Treasury, to ensure everything is delivered as quickly as possible.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope that you realise that after I have asked my question, and the SNP spokesperson, the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson), and another Conservative Member have asked their questions, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) will be the definitive person to put to Government what needs to be done.
I say to the Minister and, through him, to our right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Jeremy Quin), the Minister’s predecessor, that we are not doing enough, fast enough. How many months have passed since Sir Robert Francis produced his report? I hope the Minister will confirm that it is about 20 months. How many months have passed since Sir Brian Langstaff produced his final recommendations on compensation? It is about eight months. Those are the relevant issues.
The fact that the Government will act 25 working days after Sir Brian’s final report comes out next year does not deal with the issue of what the affected and infected need and should get now. If it is a question of money, how much and the cashflow for the Government, they should say so now. There is nothing that can be said on compensation 25 days after the report comes out that could not be said now, so please will the Minister say it?
John Glen
I thank my hon. Friend for his questions. I could not agree with him more about the level of urgency that is attached to the Government’s response. He is right about the publication dates; I think the whole House is aware of that. In the past five weeks, I have taken concrete steps, building on the work of my predecessor, to take the actions necessary to make those decisions as quickly as possible along the timescale I have set out. I cannot reiterate enough the Government’s commitment to dealing with the issue as quickly as possible, and I am doing all I can to gain consensus across Government to move things forward as quickly as possible.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Most of what we have heard today is not new. All we are hearing from this Government are the same old delays, while those affected continue to feel let down and failed. The Government have been working at a snail’s pace on the issue and were shamed when they voted against a new compensation body for those impacted by the scandal. Those affected and the bereaved will not forgive them for that callous act and the ongoing delays, and today they will have those feelings all over again at this non-statement.
On 5 April, Sir Brian Langstaff published his final recommendations relating to compensation. Crucially, he recommended that interim payments be made to bereaved parents and children in respect of deaths as yet unrecognised. To date, the Government have not responded in practical terms to any of those recommendations. The Government’s position continues to be to wait for the full report expected next spring before considering whether to extend the compensation. That heaps insult upon injury to those affected and their families, as every four days another victim of this scandal dies. Time is of the essence for those affected. To delay this full compensation is to stand against justice and all that is morally and ethically right. To delay compensation to those who are literally running out of time is cruel and unnecessary. This Government need to rethink and listen to the will of this House, as expressed on 4 December in the face of shameful opposition from those on the Government Benches, and deliver justice and full compensation.
Where is the urgency? The Minister has used the words “urgency” and “urgent” several times today, but it does not feel to those who are affected that there is any urgency from the Government to address the great wrongs and losses that they have suffered.
Today, given the expressed will of this House, we were hoping for a timeline from the Government for when a full compensation body would be established and operational. Again, sadly, all we have is delay and obfuscation. Does the Minister feel no shame in coming here today to give a statement that says nothing?
John Glen
I do not accept that characterisation of what I have said today, as I have made a number of specific announcements on the progress that is being made. Neither do I accept the characterisation of the Government’s position as a callous act. This Government launched a public inquiry, and last year we made interim payments. I accept that a substantive response cannot happen soon enough, but I am doing everything I can, working with colleagues across Government, to look at the best way of delivering as quickly as possible, and I will continue to do so.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
I thank the Minister for what is now our traditional end-of-term statement on this subject, but, to be clear, this is one festive tradition that we need to see the back of, because people are dying without seeing justice. May I return the Paymaster General to a line in his statement where he talked about “clinical, legal and social care experts” to advise him on detailed technical considerations in the new year? Can he clarify when in the new year, because, clearly, that could cover 12 months of 2024. Moreover, further to the points made by the shadow Minister, how much can the Government do now to pave the way for serious progress and payment when the Government and the Treasury are in the position to move?
John Glen
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I have been in discussions on the appointment of clinical, legal and social care experts since my first week in office in November. We have identified individuals, and communicated with them last week. We want to get them on board with this work in the early days of the new year, so that that work can happen as quickly as possible. I wanted to avoid a situation where people were going out to compete for roles. What we want is the best people across those specialisms so that this work can make urgent progress, aligned with our intention to respond substantively later in the year.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
In April 2023, Sir Brian Langstaff said:
“I recommend that a compensation scheme should be set up now and it should begin work this year.”
What exactly does the Minister not understand in that statement? This statement today will cause huge anguish to victims of the 50-year-old scandal and, in noting that the Prime Minister whipped Conservative Members to vote down the new clause on 4 December, fuel their suspicion that the Government are still playing for time, even though they accept the moral case. This therefore is adding one final insult to injury. Will the Minister tell us why the Prime Minister can find what the Deputy Prime Minister said yesterday is unlimited funding for the Rwanda policy, but is still pushing back, after a five-year public inquiry, against compensation—and even interim compensation for the groups that have never received anything—for people who have suffered so much for so long after what the state did to them?
John Glen
I recognise the right hon. Lady’s frustration and disappointment with where we have got to. The work that she has done, and the work that was expressed in the amendment, is urgently being examined by me and my officials.
John Glen
I recognise Sir Brian’s recommendations, and I have done what I can to move us to a place where we meet the expectations as quickly as possible in the new year. I said to the right hon. Lady when I met her and my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) that my officials were engaged in looking at the options for the delivery vehicle. I must now examine how that operates with the legislative vehicle, which has been amended by the House. I will do everything that I can to update the House as quickly as I can.
Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)
I have some sympathy for the Minister, who I suspect might go slightly further in his comments if he had complete free rein at the Dispatch Box. I have experience of dealing with the Windrush compensation scheme, which similarly looked back decades at the impact on individuals, with records often incomplete and people having moved many times, and it brought home the complexity of this type of compensation scheme, even when it gets to work. What is his timeline for people to start dealing with these cases, because that will be the first step in getting compensation finally paid to people who, as we have touched on, we are losing literally every day?
John Glen
That is what the experts will do—the calibration of tariffs and allocation of compensation, as per the excellent work that has been done by the inquiries. This is urgent, and work will begin in the new year on that aspect. As I said, on the legislative vehicle to establish the necessary mechanisms, that process is under way as well.
Stephen Doughty (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister has referred many times to urgency. I think that he is a good man, and I know that he will be trying to do his best, but I had a message this afternoon from the organisation Factor 8, which said:
“Today, one of our members has died. He was infected with Hepatitis C through infected Factor VIII blood products. Two weeks ago, he was diagnosed with cancer (caused by his Hepatitis C) and now has died without seeing justice. These stories are sadly familiar within our community.”
That is the reality for so many people who have been affected, including my own constituents; I spoke to them years ago and was convinced of their case for justice. Who else is holding this up elsewhere in the Government?
John Glen
The hon. Gentleman makes the right point, which we have all heard from our constituents; my constituents have made representations along those lines, too. All I can say is that there is nothing stopping me moving this forward. I am doing everything that I can to put in place the legislative mechanisms to set up the process and ensure that, when the Government respond, the response is as comprehensive as it can be. I acknowledge the distress caused to so many people. I will do everything that I can to bring this forward as quickly as I can.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
Two weeks ago, I met a gentleman called Barry. Barry had been a constituent of a former Member of this place, Alistair Burt, in North East Bedfordshire. Barry spoke to me of how hard Alistair had worked, alongside the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), but of course Alistair Burt left this place before we ever found a resolution to the scandal. Can I ask my right hon. Friend, who I believe is going to do his best, whether we will see compensation before any more of us leave this place?
John Glen
My right hon. Friend is ingenious in her question, but I go back to what I said: I will do everything I can to put in place all the elements to allow us to respond substantively. We will know the date of the report, I believe, on 17 January, so we will have a definitive timetable in the new year. I recognise that she, Alistair Burt and many others across the House have campaigned on this issue for many years and I am determined to bring it to the conclusion that the House expects.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
Like many hon. Members present, I have a number of constituents who were infected with HIV or hepatitis C through the scandal and several have lost family members. I want to echo what some of them are feeling. One of my constituents described her parent’s diagnosis with HIV due to infected blood as
“a catalogue of soul destroying, humiliating neglect and ultimately alienating experiences”
and told me that it is now 30 years since her parent died,
“and the intense sense of loss and pain remains profound and is felt every single day.”
People infected and affected need tangible action now to help to alleviate that suffering. The question the Minister has to answer is when he will establish a full compensation body and when that will become operational.
John Glen
I am obviously going to have to repeat myself several times. I have set out clearly what is new today: the psychological support and the appointment of the necessary expert, in a matter of days, to take forward the work needed to get to the point where a comprehensive response can happen. We have committed to when the timetable will happen with respect to the final inquiry, and we are doing everything we can to reach that. While I recognise that that is a matter of three or four months further down the road, I am trying to make sure that, when the response comes, it is as comprehensive as it possibly can be, addressing all the dimensions of the misery that the hon. Lady movingly spoke about.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
When the House debated the amendment by the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) a couple of weeks ago, I gave the Government the benefit of the doubt and abstained. If I could turn the clock back, based on what I have heard today I would now want to vote for that amendment. In a couple of weeks I have a constituent coming to see me who is a family member of one of the victims. I am afraid that if I showed her this statement, she would immediately point out things such as “summer 2024” and say, “That is just too long.” Can the Minister give me some assurance that, by the time I see that lady, there will be a little bit more certainty?
John Glen
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question and I will happily talk to him privately. I am sorry that he draws that conclusion from what I have said today. In the past 35 days I have done everything I can to move the scheme forward, and I wanted to make an oral statement before the House rose for the recess. I recognise that there is a lot more that could be said, but a lot more needs to be done before we get to that point. The reference to June is to do with the psychological support. The comprehensive response that the Government have committed to will come at a defined moment after the publication of the final report, the date of which we will clarify on 17 January—it will be some time after the report’s publication in March.
Margaret Greenwood (Wirral West) (Lab)
Thousands of people across the country have been affected by this scandal, and constituents who have been in touch with me describe their quest for justice as “upsetting”, “frustrating” and “depressing”. The Haemophilia Society said after the recent vote on the amendment to the Victims and Prisoners Bill that the Prime Minister “should be ashamed” that he had been forced to do the right thing. Does the Minister agree with that assessment, and will he apologise to those affected for the excessive delays in delivering compensation to victims?
John Glen
I reaffirm what I have said about my commitment to doing this as quickly as possible. Of course I regret the delays that have occurred over many years, and I want this to be brought to a conclusion as quickly as it can be. I think I neglected to answer the question from the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) about working with the various victims’ groups, of which there are a large number. I undertake to work with them to give them as much clarity as possible about the timetable and the work that I am undertaking.
Sir Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
Will the Government be making these payments within their own lifetime?
John Glen
I will give a comprehensive response along the timetable that I set out earlier.
Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)
I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) and to the journalist Caroline Wheeler for their tireless campaigning on this issue.
I think we all know, as we have heard in a couple of questions from Conservative Members, why the Government have tried to delay compensation for so long; they are clearly hoping that it will be another Government’s problem. Perhaps the Minister can help me to understand. He says that he recognises the
“distress and trauma that each individual has faced,”
so why has it taken until today to announce a bespoke psychological service for people infected and affected by infected blood products, and why will it take until the summer to set up that service?
John Glen
The timing of the delivery of that service has been worked through with NHS England. I signed off the funding for it when I was Chief Secretary to the Treasury, and I am pleased that we can announce it today. I wish that it could have been sooner, but we are where we are, and I am pleased that we have made some progress. As with all these matters, of course I wish that I could accelerate it, but I have to work through all the deliberate steps needed to get the legislation in the right place to ensure that we can answer all the questions that so many people have—I recognise they have waited too long.
Anna Firth (Southend West) (Con)
I thank the Minister for his statement, particularly his assurance that the scheme will cover the infected and affected. I have mentioned my constituent David Corroyer in this Chamber before. He contacted hepatitis C in the ’70s—over 40 years ago—not from a transfusion but from donating blood, as a needle was used multiple times. He gave evidence to the inquiry but is still waiting to hear whether his particular circumstances will be covered. Can the Minister help him?
John Glen
I do not think that I can be expected to respond to individual cases here, but I have ensured that we have the right range of professional expertise—the very best available in this country—so that all those different cases of infected and affected, going off quite a range of experiences over a very long period, are properly interrogated as the details of the scheme are worked through.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
The Government had to make this statement after losing the vote two weeks ago, but there is little in it for families like the Smiths, who—please know this, Minister—finally saw hope in that vote. Campaigners have called for months and months for the preparatory work to be done. How long will victims now have to wait for what the House has asked for?
John Glen
As I said, it will be 25 sittings days after the publication of the report. That is when the Government’s comprehensive reply will be given.
Sir Mike Penning (Hemel Hempstead) (Con)
From 2006 to 2010, I was a shadow public health spokesman on the Opposition Benches. I committed a future Conservative Government to compensating. That was easy to do in opposition, but I accept that it is much more difficult in government. I trust the Minister, but I know that a lot of people are sceptical. We need to build back trust by saying that we will compensate both those infected and those affected, because those families need the money—they needed it years ago. It is not just this Government who have been slow; previous Governments have been slow, too. This needs to be resolved now. We need to rebuild trust; I am sorry, but it is lacking.
John Glen
My right hon. Friend makes wise and fair observations. This is complex, but it is urgent. My right hon. Friend the Member for Horsham (Jeremy Quin) did an enormous amount of work in getting us to today’s statement and to a lot more, which will come to fruition as quickly as possible. But my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) is absolutely right: this scandal has lasted almost two generations, and I am determined to do everything I can to bring it to a conclusion.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
The one tradition that has been upheld today is that of the Paymaster General coming to the House to make a statement that says nothing. He is the ninth Paymaster General since the inquiry was announced, and they keep saying nothing. In the past fortnight alone, he has had to face oral questions and has been defeated in the voting Lobbies, and the Prime Minister was asked a question about this on Wednesday, but we are still no nearer where we need to be. This is a cruel, cruel tease, is it not?
John Glen
I am sorry, but I do not accept that characterisation. What I would say is that, as I think the hon. Member appreciates, there are deeply complex matters in relation to how to allocate funds in the right way and create the most effective and reliable way to honour the recommendations and deal with this comprehensively, and I am doing everything I can to make sure that is achieved.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
All of us here are unhappy about the fact that this has taken so long—the events actually took place up to 40 years ago—but, my right hon. Friend has reacted very strongly to the conversations I and others have had with him since the original statement. What he has outlined today about the final report, the bespoke psychological service and some technical issues, followed by serious announcements for those of our constituents who have suffered or had partners who have since died, and the personal commitment he has given to resolving this during 2024, are useful steps forward. I am grateful to him for making this statement before the Christmas recess.
John Glen
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his words. The right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North said at business questions last Thursday that she did not want a written statement on the last day. I do not think that having an oral statement on the penultimate day is that much better, but I was determined to at least address that concern. What I will commit to is doing as much as I can to update the House as early as possible. That commitment is there, and obviously we have Cabinet Office questions early in the new year—the day after the announcement of the date—and I will, I hope, be able to say more then.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Sir Brian Langstaff came up with the recommendations that he did because he recognised that people were dying without getting justice. The amendment that was passed in this House two weeks ago, tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson), was Sir Brian’s recommendation word for word. The Minister has come to the Dispatch Box sounding as though he has only just started work on this, and that there was no work done by his nine predecessors. Has he met Sir Brian Langstaff, and what does Sir Brian Langstaff say to him about this constant delay in paying compensation?
John Glen
I have not met Sir Brian Langstaff yet, but of course I build on the work that my predecessors have done. As I indicated to the chairs of the all-party parliamentary group, as soon as I was in office I set up a meeting and I was aware of the ongoing work. I now have to work out the interaction of that amendment with the work that exists and bring forward a substantial response to it.
Chris Stephens (Glasgow South West) (SNP)
This is a disappointing statement in some ways, but let me give the Paymaster General an opportunity to build trust and confidence. It is unclear in his statement whether the Government accept the principle of an independent compensation body—an arm’s length body—so can he confirm that that is the case? Does he accept that, for the victims and their families, that is a prerequisite for building trust and confidence, and that they will not accept a Government Department involved in this scandal administering the compensation scheme?
John Glen
I am very cognisant of the 18 recommendations, and the sensitivity about the trust needed in the delivery mechanism, whatever that is. That is one of several considerations on which we need to reach the right conclusion. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Sir Mike Penning) said, I recognise that restoring trust is a serious matter on which we have to deliver.
Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
My constituent Eileen lost her father in the infected blood scandal. She told me earlier this year:
“This lack of transparency is causing great stress and anxiety to those of us at the heart of this NHS treatment disaster, who have already waited decades for our loss and suffering to be recognised.”
When the Government committed to a statement before Christmas, there was an expectation that there would have been further progress on the compensation scheme, and I do not think that was an unreasonable assumption. In the absence of that, what assurances can I give Eileen and her family that she will be recognised by this Government and that she will be compensated?
John Glen
Today we are putting in place the expertise needed to deal with the recommendations and look at the distribution for compensation. The Government are committed to responding after those 25 sitting days from the day that the report is published, the date of which will be known on 17 January. What I have announced today is a milestone on that journey, and we are in that last lap as we get towards the day when the Government will respond substantively.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
My constituent lost her brother and her sister-in-law, and her nephew was orphaned at a young age. Her mother, a pensioner, was left to raise her nephew. The family has not received a penny, and her nephew is in dire need of support. As everybody has said, this is already too late, so I urge the Minister to do everything in his power to ensure that something is done sooner rather than later. Will he explain exactly what new legislation he needs to bring in?
John Glen
Some ex gratia payments have been made since 1992, but I recognise that a large number of people have been excluded in different ways. The work that will be undertaken and the experts who have been appointed will be designed to ensure that the fairest settlement is made, taking full account of the inquiry’s recommendations. I cannot offer any specific assurances to the hon. Lady or her constituents, but I will be doing everything I can to bring this forward as quickly as I can.
Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)
My constituent Michael, and so many more, will be disappointed by today’s statement. The Minister rightfully spoke about urgency, yet there is no timeline that reflects that urgency. People still do not know when the independent compensation body will be set up, or when they will ultimately get justice, and get that compensation to victims of this infected blood scandal.
John Glen
I recognise the hon. Gentleman’s disappointment and that of many in the House today. I shall reflect carefully on that, and do everything I can to do better next time. The steps we are taking, deliberately and carefully, to work through what is required to make a substantive response after the publication of that final report in March, are serious. I will be having meetings over Christmas and early in the new year, week by week, to work through what is required to deliver on the Government’s commitment.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
Speaking about last, I could sort of reference some of the things the Minister has referred to—well, if only I could. I only wish I was able to, and could talk of complex matters. The victims want to hear a clear timeline for when final compensation payments will be made. They want to see the urgency that the Minister talked about. There is a view that the Government are trying to kick this issue into the next Parliament, and that the Treasury is dragging its heels. The Minister has been asked this a couple of times: will he confirm that this issue will be all resolved before this Parliament is dissolved?
John Glen
That is my expectation. I am doing everything I can to bring this to a substantial conclusion after the publication of the final report. I am speaking to colleagues in many Departments, and working with officials across Government to get to the end point that I have set out several times this afternoon.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Paymaster General for his statement. I know he is an honourable gentleman, and his commitment will be to deliver what we wish to see. I also thank the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) for the amendment that she tabled and won in this House by four votes. Those four votes were enough to show the mind of this Parliament, and where we want to be. During the last topical questions to the Cabinet Office, I asked the Paymaster General whether he had the figures for those who have sadly passed away this year, before compensation had been made available to them. The Minister committed to confirming those numbers so, two weeks later and with no reply, has he been able to access the figures I asked for, as we approach the rise of the House for Christmas 2023?
John Glen
I am not aware whether those figures are available yet, but I will ensure that the moment I leave this Chamber, I will do everything I can to get the hon. Member a response on that. If I cannot give them, I will let him know why.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
I thank the Minister for his statement and for responding to questions for 45 minutes.
Places for Growth Update
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 7 months ago)
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The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
Today we have published the latest statistics relating to Places for Growth role relocations. This publication sets out a Places for Growth programme overview, relocation data collection and methodology and progress against programme targets 2020 to 2023. Relocations data is broken down by nation, region, location, grade and Department, cumulatively providing a holistic overview of the progress made in relocating Government roles to date.
Places for Growth is delivering on the Government’s commitment to relocate 22,000 roles from London and to have 50% of UK-based senior civil service roles based outside London by 2030. In addition to publishing the latest statistics, today I have announced I am bringing forward the delivery timeframe to relocate 22,000 roles from 2030 to 2027. This recognises the huge progress that has been made to date on this initiative; since 2020 the Places for Growth programme has worked with Government Departments to relocate more than 16,000 roles. This announcement will also launch the headquarter locations of the Department for Science, Innovation and Technology in Greater Manchester, the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero in Aberdeen in addition to Salford and the Department for Business and Trade in Darlington, as well as establishing Wrexham as a key location benefiting from additional roles from the Ministry of Justice and an increase in headcount from the Department for Work and Pensions.
Through Government role relocations and the strengthening of civil service communities across the UK, Places for Growth supports a number of other key Government priorities including modernisation and reform, levelling up and strengthening the union.
Places for Growth will establish a network of locations across the regions and nations of the UK, supporting a geographically diverse civil service that delivers excellent public services, contributes to local economic growth and is better connected to, and representative of, the communities we serve.
I am depositing a copy of the Places For Growth role relocations data 2020 to 2023 in the Libraries of both Houses of Parliament.
Following this statistical release, Places for Growth will publish Government role relocation data on gov.uk on a quarterly basis.
[HCWS114]
Cabinet Office
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 7 months ago)
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Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Ind)
What steps are the Government taking to reduce the number of civil servants in order to achieve value for money for the taxpayer?
John Glen
I am looking carefully at where we are with the plans for this year—obviously, there is a half-way point in that cycle—and at what policies we can put in place. At the beginning of October, the Chancellor announced a freeze on recruitment.
[Official Report, 23 November 2023, Vol. 741, c. 450.]
Letter of correction from the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen).
An error has been identified in my response to the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Scott Benton).
The correct response should have been:
Cabinet Office
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 7 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
John Glen
My hon. Friend obviously knows a great deal about this as a result of his distinguished 31 years of experience in the House, but pivotal role allowances have been in place for 10 years to help us to retain certain key individuals. A number of initiatives were introduced by my distinguished predecessor Lord Maude, the former right hon. Member for Horsham, and I intend to build on those, but I am happy to engage with my hon. Friend, because this is a serious issue.
In 2022, the last year for which we have figures, there was a 12.4% turnover from the senior civil service, and resignations were at 5%. We need to look carefully at what that means across different roles, and at how we can retain the specialisms for longer periods so that key Government programmes benefit from the sort of leadership that has enduring expertise at the table.
[Official Report, 23 November 2023, Vol. 741, c. 446.]
Letter of correction from the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen):
An error has been identified in the reply I gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Sir Bernard Jenkin).
The correct reply should have been:
John Glen
… In 2022, the last year for which we have figures, there was a 12.4% turnover from the senior civil service, and resignations were at 4.9%. We need to look carefully at what that means across different roles, and at how we can retain the specialisms for longer periods so that key Government programmes benefit from the sort of leadership that has enduring expertise at the table.
Oral Answers to Questions
John Glen Excerpts(2 years, 8 months ago)
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Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
I strongly commend the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) for her work for those who have been impacted by the infected blood scandal, and I look forward to working across the House on this important issue. The Government have accepted the moral case for compensation but it is only reasonable that the response is fully informed by Sir Brian Langstaff’s final report, which is anticipated in March next year.
Dame Diana Johnson
Eight months ago, recommendation 12 of the final report on compensation called for interim payments of £100,000 to be
“paid to recognise the deaths of people to date unrecognised and alleviate immediate suffering.”
The “Cambridge Dictionary” describes the word “interim” as something
“temporary and intended to be used or accepted until something permanent exists”.
I know the Minister is a good man and will want to do his best, so can he tell the House when those interim payments will start to be paid?
John Glen
I cannot tell the right hon. Lady that today, but in the seven days that I have been in this post I have recognised this to be my highest priority in the role. There are a number of complex issues that I need to come to terms with, but I am familiar with the whole issue from my previous role as Chief Secretary to the Treasury. This might be a matter of gamekeeper turned poacher, but I understand the mindset of the Treasury and how we can get a solution that deals with the range of recommendations. I cannot say anything more of substance today, but I will be having further meetings across Whitehall, with more this morning, and I am determined that this Government will respond as comprehensively as we can as soon as we can.
Barbara Keeley
I have raised in written and oral questions with the former Paymaster General, the right hon. Member for Horsham (Jeremy Quin), the case of a constituent of mine whose father died following infected factor VIII treatment. The family could not even grieve properly, because of the stigma around HIV and AIDS at the time. Compensation will not bring their father back, but it would give the family closure. My constituent contacted me after a statement in which the former Paymaster General said that the Government accepted that there is a moral case for compensation for those affected by the scandal, as the Minister has just done, but also said that those infected and affected have suffered enough. Given the acceptance by Ministers that the children of those infected have suffered enough, when will the Government make interim compensation payments to the estates of those who have died as a result of infected blood products and, separately, to those affected whose parents have died?
John Glen
The best answer I can give the hon. Lady is that it will be
“as quickly as reasonable thoroughness permits”,
as the inquiry chair said in his response. I am totally aware and sincere in my appreciation of the frustration that exists on this issue. As I say, seven days in, I am doing everything I can to move things forward and to gain assurances from across Whitehall so that I can update the House as quickly as possible. I sense the palpable frustration, and I realise that this issue needs action as soon as possible.
Dame Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
I welcome the Minister to his new role. He will know that time is of the essence, with a victim of this scandal dying every four days. He also knows that there is nothing to stop the Government setting up a compensation scheme now. The failure to do so is weighing heavily on the minds of those affected. The cynical would think that the Government are just kicking the issue into the long grass. Can the Minister tell us when he hopes to report on preparations for compensation and appoint a chair for an appropriate body to run the scheme?
John Glen
What I can say to the hon. Lady is that I am familiar with the range of activities that need to take place. I am getting into the detail of every single one of them, but I have to gain collective agreement before I can announce anything to this House. This House will be the first place I make any announcements, when I have secured that. I acknowledge her frustrations, and I am doing everything I can. I will update the House as quickly as I can.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
There is an established regime in place for the declaration and management of private interests held by Ministers, as is set out in the ministerial code. Preliminary discussions have been held with the Foreign Secretary, in consultation with the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests, to ensure that all interests are managed appropriately.
Siobhain McDonagh
Since the Foreign Secretary was last in office, he has been working for a Chinese state enterprise that was sanctioned by the US Government and blacklisted for bribery by the World Bank. The Foreign Secretary was paid by the Chinese company to promote the building of a port in Sri Lanka, a country which has itself been accused of war crimes and where, since the end of the civil war in 2009, tens of thousands of disappeared people have still not been found. Does the Minister agree that the British people have the right to know when their Foreign Secretary has been employed by the Chinese Government?
John Glen
I do not recognise the hon. Lady’s characterisation of the Foreign Secretary’s employment history. What I would say is that there is a thorough process in place through the ministerial code whereby the independent adviser publishes statements on Ministers’ relevant interests. Yesterday, I met the independent adviser for the first time to speak in general terms about his role, and work is under way on the next list to include the relevant interests of newly appointed Ministers—I think there are about 18 of them. The Government’s position on China remains unchanged. We believe in engaging directly and robustly in the UK national interest.
Nick Smith
When Lord Cameron, the public face of Greensill, was in the room where it happened—when key decisions were made, and attending board meetings regularly—there is a perception that he was part of Greensill’s inner circle. Has the independent adviser assessed whether Lord Cameron was considered a shadow director during his time at Greensill?
John Glen
The Foreign Secretary has accounted for his conduct in relation to Greensill Capital, and independent reviews by the Registrar of Consultant Lobbyists and the Advisory Committee on Business Appointments confirm that no rules were broken. His ennoblement was also approved by the House of Lords Appointments Commission. I have referred to the process that is under way with the independent adviser for all new Ministers and the updates that will be forthcoming in due course from him. That is all I can say on the matter.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
I welcome my old friend and sparring partner, the right hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen), to his post. Questions have been raised about whether all benefits in kind received by the Foreign Secretary while he acted as a lobbyist for Greensill Capital have been properly declared. Will the Minister confirm whether his tax affairs were examined and considered by the House of Lords Appointments Commission before approving his appointment? If not, will the Government now investigate to see if all such matters, including any use of offshore trusts, were properly declared and taken into account before the appointment was made?
John Glen
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his kind words—it is indeed good to follow him to the Cabinet Office brief. I will not comment on media speculation, but I acknowledge and thank him for his letter of yesterday. Lord Cameron’s appointment followed all the established processes for both peerages and ministerial appointments. The ennoblement was approved by the House of Lords Appointments Commission in the usual way, and that included a check with His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. Details of the way in which HOLAC works with HMRC are published on gov.uk.
Mr McFadden
I want to ask about an angle of the matter mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh). The Foreign Secretary received fulsome praise from the China Harbour Engineering Company for his role in promoting the Port City Colombo project in Sri Lanka. Can the Minister tell the House who the ultimate client was when the Foreign Secretary received payment from KPMG Sri Lanka for his role in promoting that project? Was it the Sri Lankan Government or the China Harbour Engineering Company, which is owned by the Chinese state?
John Glen
That is a matter not for me but for the processes that I have set out, which have been complied with. I believe that Lord Cameron has made some comments with respect to those matters.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Michael Shanks (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
The Prime Minister made it clear upon his appointment that he will lead a Government of integrity, professionalism and accountability at every level, and he is delivering on that promise.
Michael Shanks
The Minister, a few moments ago in answer to specific questions, said that this was not a matter for him. Of course, the problem with the ministerial code is that the public do not have confidence that it is actually being delivered. There is very little transparency around investigations and around referrals to the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests. With particular reference to Lord Cameron’s appointment, will the Minister commit to publishing all the correspondence with the ministerial adviser on the code, and any correspondence around the list he had to give to the permanent secretary on his interests prior to appointment?
John Glen
With the greatest respect, I do not think the hon. Gentleman understands that the independent adviser on Ministers’ interests has wide-ranging powers. Within two weeks of appointment, a Minister will have to fill in a form which was recently changed—two months ago—and has over 30 pages covering a wide range of aspects of their interests. There is then a process where the permanent secretary of the relevant Department comments on that and the independent adviser will then publish an update of relevant interests. This is a thorough process. I met the independent adviser yesterday. I suggest to the hon. Gentleman that he writes to the independent adviser to seek the correspondence he wishes.
Kirsty Blackman (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
When will the list of ministerial relevant interests next be published and will the interests of all the new Ministers be included in it?
John Glen
I am not certain, but work is under way. There are, I think, 18 new Ministers. I think it will be a matter of weeks, but I will keep an eye on that. The independent adviser did not give me a date yesterday, but I will continue to work closely with him where I can.
Kirsty Blackman
We would appreciate it if that list could be published before Christmas at the latest, because it is incredibly important. Section 7.25 of the ministerial code prohibits Ministers from lobbying Government for a two-year period after they leave office. It does not, unfortunately, say anything about interests before they are put into office. Does the Minister understand that with trust in politicians at an all-time low, the perception of Lord Cameron being put into the role, having clearly been lobbying on behalf of hostile foreign interests, does nothing for the perception of politicians as trustworthy?
John Glen
I just do not accept the hon. Lady’s view. I have set out in previous answers this morning that there is an established, thorough process that is constantly being updated. There are regular updates by the independent adviser. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Secretary of State in the Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for Hertsmere (Oliver Dowden), assures me that that update will be out before the end of this calendar year. That work will continue and I expect, and the independent adviser and the Prime Minister expect, the highest standards to apply. Where there are changes to an individual’s circumstances or interests, there is an urgent imperative to update the independent adviser.
Sir Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
In July 2022 we launched a policy setting the expected assignment durations for the senior civil service—the SCS1 and SCS2 roles—at a default minimum of three years, to support the transfer of knowledge management and subject expertise. The initial impact of the policy will be reviewed by July next year, and there will be a fuller review in July 2025, following the completion of the first three-year cycle.
Sir Bernard Jenkin
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his appointment—and a very welcome one it is too. Does he acknowledge that although the problem of churn and generalism in the civil service has been around for 50 or 60 years, since the Fulton inquiry in the 1960s under Harold Wilson, it has become worse and worse? I thank him for the evidence that the Government have submitted to the Liaison Committee’s inquiry on strategic thinking in Government and how Select Committees can better scrutinise it, but if the Government do not have in place the experts and the people with domain knowledge, domain expertise and subject experience, there is not likely to be much good strategic thinking going on, given that Ministers often seem to know more about the subjects than the officials they are dealing with. May I invite my right hon. Friend to give us a supplementary note for the inquiry, so that we can understand their thinking on this matter more deeply?
John Glen
My hon. Friend obviously knows a great deal about this as a result of his distinguished 31 years of experience in the House, but pivotal role allowances have been in place for 10 years to help us to retain certain key individuals. A number of initiatives were introduced by my distinguished predecessor Lord Maude, the former right hon. Member for Horsham, and I intend to build on those, but I am happy to engage with my hon. Friend, because this is a serious issue.
In 2022, the last year for which we have figures, there was a 12.4% turnover from the senior civil service, and resignations were at 5%. We need to look carefully at what that means across different roles, and at how we can retain the specialisms for longer periods so that key Government programmes benefit from the sort of leadership that has enduring expertise at the table.
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the Paymaster General to his place. In his new role, he will have responsibility for the efficient delivery of Government services and entitlements on which our constituents rely. One such entitlement, of course, is the winter fuel payment. Earlier this week, he was reported as saying that some pensioners do not need the winter fuel payment, so can he tell us which group of pensioners he had in mind when talking about who should lose the winter fuel payment?
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (John Glen)
I was talking to a group of students and explaining the complexities of making choices in my then role at the Treasury. As the Chancellor set out yesterday, although the Government are fully committed to the full uplift, using the triple lock, and maintaining all those benefits, all Governments have to make choices. I was making known my views on some of those choices and the challenges in delivering them. I was not deviating at all from Government policy, and I am very happy to put the record straight on the Floor of the House.
Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con)
Mr Speaker, you may remember that, earlier this year, I referenced a 102-year-old constituent who had completed the Great North Run, having done a 1,000-mile bike ride the year before and a 100-mile walk the year before that. We were compiling a submission so that the gentleman could get an honour but, unfortunately, he passed away in the last couple of weeks. Given the extraordinary service that this veteran gave to the country, are there any routes we can still follow to get some recognition for him in this unfortunate situation?
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend help with a situation where Thales, the French defence contractor, and its UK subsidiary are insisting that materials should be procured not from the UK, but from India. How is that consistent with the Government’s procurement policy?
John Glen
I cannot comment on a specific case on the Floor of the House, but I am happy to engage with my hon. Friend on the matter he raises. Frameworks are in place, but without knowing more detail it is impossible for me to comment here.
Mike Kane (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
John Glen
I understand that and, through the hon. Gentleman, I say to Mr Bates that I am doing everything I can to update the House as quickly as possible. There are a range of activities that I am familiar with from the small ministerial group of which I was previously a part. There is a lot of complexity in securing the envelope of money and then working out how to allocate it, but I am doing everything I can to bring that forward as quickly as possible.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
The lives of all our constituents are greatly affected by public bodies that make decisions across a whole range of issues. Would it be better for many of those public bodies to delegate their powers to Ministers, so that Members of this House can question and scrutinise those decisions?
John Glen
I will conclude my initial meetings this afternoon with a briefing on arm’s length bodies and the range of different entities that exist beyond Whitehall. I will think very carefully about what my hon. Friend has said and look at what more we can do to ensure that there is real accountability, maximum productivity and efficiency, drawing on my experience up the road at the Treasury.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Scott Benton (Blackpool South) (Ind)
What steps are the Government taking to reduce the number of civil servants in order to achieve value for money for the taxpayer?
John Glen
I am looking carefully at where we are with the plans for this year—obviously, there is a half-way point in that cycle—and at what policies we can put in place. At the beginning of October, the Chancellor announced a freeze on recruitment. I will be looking at what we need to do now to ensure that, as we move into future financial years, we use the benefits of efficiencies that exist and different ways of delivering services, which we can learn from across the globe and the private sector, so that we get value for money for all those who are employed and do a good job in the civil service.
Mr Speaker
Order. Many Members wish to speak, but they will not get in if we are not careful.
John Glen
Yes, I acknowledge that the Maude report had some very useful contributions. I am reflecting on that and will give a more substantial response and comment in due course.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
I listened very carefully to the Paymaster General’s replies to my colleagues about the contaminated blood scandal. Can he guarantee that we will have a statement to the House before the Christmas recess?
John Glen
No, I cannot guarantee that, because I do not yet have collective agreement, but I am working towards that ambition and that is what I want to achieve.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Why have Scotland and Wales been able to set up psychological support services for the victims of the contaminated blood scandal, but England has not?
John Glen
It is because I have not yet secured collective agreement to do so. The funds are available, and it is absolutely right that we bring that forward as soon as possible. Again, that is one of the activities that I will be engaged in resolving later this morning.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Further to the questions from the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Dame Diana Johnson) and the hon. Member for Edmonton (Kate Osamor), what assessment has the Minister made of the number of people who have sadly passed away this year due to infected blood before their compensation has been available for claiming?
John Glen
I do not have that number for the hon. Gentleman, but the point he makes illustrates the urgency of the work in which I am engaged and the need to ensure that over the next 10 to 12 working weeks—by the expected date for the report’s publication—the Government can bring forward a comprehensive response.
Tributes to Her Late Majesty the Queen
John Glen Excerpts(3 years, 10 months ago)
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John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
I rise to speak today on behalf of my Salisbury constituents. I wish to start by acknowledging the unique contribution that Her Majesty has made to our nation, the Commonwealth and the world. We will never see a monarch reign through so many decades. The overwhelming grief, sadness and disorientation that our nation is now experiencing is in proportion to and a direct consequence of the enormous role that Her Majesty played in our lives. As King Charles said in his moving address last evening, thank you, Queen Elizabeth. Thank you for your gracious presence in our lives.
Many of her subjects will never have met the Queen, but everyone felt that they knew her and that she cared for them. I have sat in this Chamber these past two days and heard so many wonderful speeches from colleagues on both sides of the House. I was moved by the sheer breadth and depth of the impact that Her Majesty has had in every corner of her United Kingdom and beyond.
Much has been said about her devotion to her family, her love of the countryside, horses and her beloved corgis, her humour, her kindness and the enduring impact of that remarkable smile that warmed the hearts and left an indelible impression seared into the soul of anyone she encountered. I cannot offer anecdotes from time spent at Balmoral, Sandringham or encounters at the Palace, but I feel no less privileged for that. None the less, I did meet Her Majesty when she visited Salisbury in 2012 in her diamond jubilee year. She visited the Rifles Regimental Museum in Salisbury Cathedral Close, our cathedral and an exhibition of our country’s history and communities on the cathedral lawn.
The abiding memory I will have is one of a sublime peacefulness, an aura of sincerity as she engaged so generously in so many conversations with my constituents. Each morning in my constituency home overlooking the great cathedral—I am so fortunate—I reflect on the day ahead. Looking out of my window, I have two pictures on the window ledge: one of my beloved parents and one of me shaking the hand of Her Majesty a few metres away. I met her once, but I think she will always be with me in my service in Salisbury.
Her Majesty led a life that was animated and fuelled by a deep Christian faith that sustained her through life’s highs and lows. I think that this will be the strongest legacy that she will leave me with. Her life was driven by duty, but sustained in full submission to the Gospel of Christ and his teachings. I thank God for what he showed us about his character through Her Majesty’s wonderful life. God save the King.