“Chapter 4A

Joe Robertson Excerpts

Tuesday 11th March 2025 Commons Chamber

[Lee Barron]

It will indeed. I thank my hon. Friend for making that point so well.

This Bill has been a huge move in terms of sick pay, as far as the Government are concerned. It will bring 1.3 million people into getting sick pay for the first time, and we need to welcome that. We might need to have a look at some point in the future to see if there has been a drag downwards in terms of the people around the lower earnings limit, but we should certainly welcome this as a step in the right direction.

This is not just about legislation: we must change the jobs market and the perception of work that some people have in modern Britain. There are still some people who do not recognise the value that working people bring. I had a meeting last week with the parcel delivery company Evri, which operates in all our constituencies. It described the employer-employee relationship as a “master-servant” relationship. I turn around and say that that kind of view of working people is absolutely dated. Evri said that if it changed the status of its workers, it would want its “pound of flesh”—its words, not mine.

While we have those who treat and describe working people in such a way, we must bring in legislation to ensure that they cannot treat people like that. Working people are not servants, and they should be treated with the dignity and respect that they deserve. That is a fundamentally wrong, crass and outdated way to view employment in modern Britain, and as long as there are still those who think like that, we need to ensure that we change things for the better, and this Bill goes a long way towards doing that.

The question I often ask myself is this: why do those who want economic growth think that we make growth happen through insecure work, minimal wage rates and zero-hours contracts, under which people do not know what they will earn in order to support their family from one week to the next? Work should not mean a lifetime trapped in poverty; it should be the route out of poverty, and this Bill is a step in the right direction to ensure that is what it becomes once again.

I chair the all-party parliamentary group on modernising employment, and at our last meeting we heard from Zelda Perkins, of the Can’t Buy My Silence campaign, about non-disclosure agreements. Her testimony makes it absolutely clear that more needs to be done in that space, and if there is room to do so through this Bill, I urge the Government to accept the amendments that were described earlier. The APPG looks to the future of work and what good employment looks like. At the end of the month, the APPG is going to look at good work, the new deal and this Bill. We will look at the full effects of this Bill to see how we can take forward its benefits and transfer them into the modern world of work. In the 21st century, modern employment should look like security of work, well-paid and with progression opportunities, in order to keep families out of poverty. This Bill goes some way towards doing that.

In conclusion, I urge all Members to support this Bill, which bans exploitative zero-hours contracts. Saying that this will somehow stop flexible working is for the birds—it is not the case. We had flexible working long before we had zero-hours contracts. We survived then, we can survive now, and we will survive into the future.

[Joe Robertson (Isle of Wight East) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Lee Barron]

No.

Zero-hours contracts are banned in Spain and in the Republic of Ireland—employers cannot use them. Do not tell me that those countries do not have flexibility; they have. We will survive in the future, as we survived in the past, without exploiting working people, because countries do not grow their economy by exploiting working people. This Bill goes some way towards stopping that.

The Bill bans exploitative zero-hours contracts, increases protection from sexual harassment, introduces equality menopause action plans, strengthens rights for pregnant workers, makes flexible working the default, strengthens bereavement leave, improves pay and conditions through fair pay agreements, provides day one protections against unfair dismissal, and establishes the Fair Work Agency to make sure all employers are playing by the same rules. The Bill will deliver the jobs for the future that will benefit working people in Corby and East Northamptonshire, and I am proud to support it.

--- Later in debate ---

I am trying to take what the Government want to do at face value, but I think the Bill contains many flaws, which have been identified by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Buckinghamshire (Greg Smith) and several other Conservative Members. There are significant gaps. The right hon. Member for Sheffield Heeley (Louise Haigh), among others, referred to non-disclosure agreements, and I thought that what she said illustrated some of the flaws in the provisions relating to psychological and emotional abuse. She gave the example of an incident involving someone who had been suffering at work and was made to apologise to the colleagues who had witnessed the incident, and I think that that should be dug into a bit. Why would that person have to apologise? The colleagues must have complained that the incident had been distressing for them. The words “psychological and emotional abuse” could have unforeseen consequences —although that is not to say that I do not care. The hon. Member for Corby and East Northamptonshire (Lee Barron) said many things with which I could agree, but I ask Members please not to say that the Conservatives do not care about abuse in the workplace.

[Joe Robertson]

Does my right hon. Friend think that some of the problems that he is identifying are a result of the Bill’s being rushed through this Chamber?

[Sir Alec Shelbrooke]

I do, and I am trying to make a serious point here. This is a big Bill, and it is one of the Government’s flagship pieces of policy. I heard someone say earlier, from a sedentary position, that we have 12 hours of debate, but that does not come up to the 21 days that we spent in Committee examining the Bill bit by bit. I agree with other Members that it has been rushed through for political purposes.

The purpose of debates such as this is to explore the issues, and try to make a Bill into a better piece of legislation. I am trying to be constructive in explaining where I see the flaws and in highlighting the unforeseen consequences. It worries me when we see the no-platforming of people at universities, and hear about trigger warnings and people saying that they feel emotionally put upon. That, I think, is an abuse of some of the protections that we are trying to introduce, and I think there are people who will try to abuse this particular clause. What I am saying to the Minister, and the Government, is, “Can that wording be tightened up?”

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Wheeler (Worsley and Eccles) (Lab)]

I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and my proud membership of USDAW and the GMB.

It was an honour to serve on the Public Bill Committee for this historic piece of legislation. The Bill represents a watershed moment: a turning point for working people in our country who for too long have been left behind in an economy plagued by weak employment rights, stagnant growth and the soaring cost of living. The measures contained in the Bill represent a meaningful intervention in our broken labour market, looking to promote good quality jobs that offer dignity, security and respect to working people. As someone with a proud background representing workers, I wholeheartedly support the Bill’s spirit and provisions. I believe it will meet Labour’s promise to deliver a new deal for working people— a new deal that will make work pay.

Whether it is banning exploitative zero-hours contracts, ending the scandal of fire and rehire, or protecting employees from unfair dismissal from day one, the Bill will promote good secure employment and a workforce who finally feel valued. It recognises trade unions as the force for good in the workplace that they are, encouraging positive, productive and harmonious partnerships between companies and unions. The evidence we heard in Committee made it clear that many of the Bill’s measures enjoy broad support from both employees and employers, such as the modernising of family friendly rights to meet the needs of today’s workers, and the creation of the Fair Work Agency, which will protect good employers from being cynically undercut by unscrupulous competitors.

Let me now turn to statutory sick pay and Government amendment 81. During the pandemic, it became clear that SSP is in desperate need of reform. I am therefore delighted that the Bill removes the three waiting days and the lower earnings limit, delivering greater financial security to working people when they need it most. However, an issue remains. Setting the amount a low-paid worker receives while off sick at 80% of their wages has the unintended consequence of reducing sick pay for those who earn at, or slightly above, the lower earnings limit. Low-paid, long-term sick workers will be the most affected. I believe that is an oversight, and contrary to the spirit of the legislation. I call on the Minister to close the gap.

Turning now to the right to a regular hours contract, the proliferation of one-sided flexibility throughout the workforce has been one of the most damaging labour market developments of the past 14 years. It has left workers vulnerable to sudden changes of income as their hours change from week to week. The right to a regular-hours contract is therefore one of the Bill’s most important provisions. However, limiting that right to those on a specified number of hours, such as 16 hours a week, will unnecessarily exclude those above the threshold from benefiting from the right, while giving employers a perverse incentive to give additional hours, when available, to those who already have more hours.

I raise these points not to be critical, but because I believe that we have in front of us a magnificent piece of legislation—one that is testament to the power of collaboration and consultation—and I want as many people as possible to benefit from it. Jobs are the cornerstone of our lives. The Bill takes giant strides forward, ensuring that people are fulfilled by their jobs, protected while at work and take home enough to make ends meet. It restores a fair balance of power between employers and employees. It is good for workers, good for productivity and good for growth, and is therefore good for business, too. I suggest to the House that anyone serious about fairness at work and increasing living standards should support it.

[Joe Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman talks about the Bill being good for growth, but is he concerned that the Government’s own assessment says it will cost businesses £5 billion? Does he have any concerns at all about the downward impact on growth of that cost?

[Michael Wheeler]

I think that a Bill that promotes good, secure work across the economy is something we should not shy away from. I believe, if I am correct, that the figure referenced represents 0.5% of the costs of businesses, so no—I am not concerned.

I would like to finish in a slightly odd place. Benjamin Disraeli believed that his Government’s active role in passing legislation that benefited the working person would

“gain and retain for the Conservatives the lasting affection of the working classes”—

clearly he failed in that endeavour. One nation Tories are now a vanishingly scarce presence on the Opposition Benches. I ask all hon. Members on those Benches, with their opposition to this Bill: when did the Conservatives give up even trying to be on the side of working people?

--- Later in debate ---

[Joe Robertson]

The hon. Member is talking about the benefits of her new clause to fathers, but does she accept that the effect of the Bill will be negative and harmful to everyone and to the economy, by stripping £5 billion away from businesses? It is no good that her new clause would be helpful for fathers if the net effect of the Bill is bad for everyone, through the damage done to the economy.

[Ms Creasy]

I wish that the hon. Gentleman had been listening, because I just pointed out that dealing with the gender pay gap would bring £23 billion to our economy. That is exactly how we pay for better parental leave—it is a cost-neutral proposal.

A newsflash for those who have not worked it out: mothers are already paying for this childcare in their lower wages, opportunities and progression. Women’s salaries are hit by 33% after the birth of their first child. Women are doing 450 million hours of unpaid childcare in this country, which equates to £382 billion worth of work—twice as much as men. A consultation could explicitly look into these issues and at how we can share that cost and benefit fairly, so that both men and women can contribute equally to our society and look after their children equally. It could look explicitly at self-employed parents. After all, there are nearly a million self-employed dads in this country, who pay £1.1 billion in national insurance contributions. They do not get any parental leave at all.

We know that shared parental leave is not the answer. Only 2% of dads have taken it in the 10 years that it has been available, because it is not paid. That is why we must be explicit that any consultation must look at the pay that needs to be behind parental leave, as well as at protecting it. Those on the lowest incomes do not take shared parental leave at all. More shared parental leave has been claimed in London alone than in Wales, Scotland, the north-west and the north-east combined.

Above all, this is about our kids. God knows, we love them all dearly, but we can all understand why 20% of divorces take place in the first five years after having a child: because of the unequal situation that we put families in and the pressures that that creates—the mum and dad guilt. We have a choice in this place about whether we deal with mum and dad guilt, with the Government making a proper commitment with a proper timetable, and with proper involvement from Parliament and the Women and Equalities Committee.

To all those who will say, “Well, I struggled, and so should you,” I say that that is bad for the economy and bad for our kids. It means that fathers do not get the time to work out the quirks of their children, so mums end up being the ones who know how to cut the sandwiches. It means that mums end up doing more of the childcare and dads get pushed further away from their children. If this Government are serious about supporting families—I believe that they are—they need to show us the detail. That way, in every family, which come in all shapes and sizes, every parent—whether the father, the non-birthing parent or the mother—will have the time to be the best parent and contributor. That is why these policies are massively popular with Conservative and Reform voters—if only the Reform MPs were here to do something for men for a change.

This long overdue change will make a difference. I hope that Ministers are listening to why it matters to show a commitment to this, and I look forward to hearing to what they have to say in response to the new clause.

Royal Assent