Referendum on Scottish Independence

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Monday 13th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Alan Brown]

I agree fully. Now we are hearing that it is not to buy the votes of the Democratic Unionist party; it is based on Northern Ireland’s needs. Yet there is no process for the Government to engage properly with the Scottish Parliament and consider Scotland’s needs. They do not ask the Scottish Finance Secretary. In fact, another £600 million has just been taken from the rail budget. If the Government are considering Northern Ireland’s needs, they should be able to do the same for other devolved Administrations.

Before I finish, I want to tackle the “once in a generation” issue. I have re-read that interview, and Alex Salmond qualified his remarks by continuing to repeat that it was his view. He then said:

“In my view this is a once in a generation—perhaps even a once in a lifetime—opportunity.”

That was his view. It is amazing how the Tories are now clinging to Alex Salmond’s views and saying that they must be held to. I challenge any of them to intervene and explain to me how that view of Alex Salmond can be binding on a future Scottish Government when it was a personal view. He might actually be proven right—

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

The person expressing what the hon. Gentleman says is a personal view was the First Minister of Scotland. It is reasonable for people in Scotland to put some store by what was said by the First Minister.

[Alan Brown]

He said that it was his view. As we all know, in the democratic process, even elected Governments cannot bind the hands of a future Government. Certainly a personal statement by the former First Minister cannot possibly dictate the future.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Sir Roger, and to take part in the debate. It has been interesting to hear speeches from all sides; I found the contributions of the hon. Members for Glasgow North East (Mr Sweeney) and for East Renfrewshire (Paul Masterton) particularly thoughtful.

More than 4,500 people in my constituency signed one of these two petitions. Of those, 494 were in favour of having indyref2 but 4,050 were against—my constituency voted strongly against independence in 2014—so for many, this is a very divisive issue. All our constituencies have people who voted yes and people who voted no, and there will always be some of our constituents who are disappointed with the views that we espouse on these issues. I appreciate that my constituents who are in favour of independence will not necessarily welcome the points I make.

There were some positive aspects to the 2014 referendum. The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) talked about the great engagement with democracy. That was certainly true in my constituency where I think 91% of people turned out—the highest ever turnout compared with UK elections in recent years. We also had 16 and 17-year-olds voting, which was a very welcome change in our politics. That has led to a change for voting in local government elections and I hope there will be a wider change in due course—it was frustrating that the private Member’s Bill promoted by the hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Jim McMahon) did not succeed.

To SNP Members who sigh and are dismissive when other hon. Members raise negative aspects of the 2014 referendum, I say that those aspects are genuine. The hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Luke Graham) referred to the anti-English comments made to the wife of a now councillor. In my constituency, a brick was thrown through an activist’s window where she had a “No Thanks” poster. I spoke to an elderly lady in Bearsden town centre who was wearing her “No Thanks” sticker on the inside of her wrist. She was afraid to wear it on her coat because of the visible animosity in the atmosphere at that time.

Some of the scenes in the run up to the vote, such as the huge protests outside the BBC where people were chanting for the political editor, Nick Robinson, to be sacked, did not make me proud of what was happening in my country and I did not welcome them. There was also a huge amount of online abuse, although I will not suggest that there was a monopoly on any one side. In fact, the evidence shows that SNP Members, particularly women, suffered a huge amount of misogynistic online abuse in the last election. None the less, that was part of the tenor of the campaign, which is regrettable. Debate should be robust, but it should be respectful.

Independence was overwhelmingly rejected by Scotland in 2014. It would be an even worse choice today. For example, figures in the White Paper estimated that oil would be at $100 per barrel, and we know what has happened to the oil price. The argument the SNP makes for having a referendum because of Brexit is actually an argument for why it would be even worse for Scotland to choose that path now: it would be piling chaos on top chaos. The single market we enjoy with the rest of the UK is four times as valuable to Scottish businesses as the single market with the rest of the EU. This is not an issue only of economics, however; as the hon. Member for East Renfrewshire so eloquently put it, this is an issue of identity and how we feel as a country. It is about being Scottish and British, which is certainly the identity I feel.

There is a wider issue. In this day and age, we should not be putting up new borders. We should recognise that we live in an interconnected world. It is much easier to tackle our shared problems—climate change, combating extremism, creating a more prosperous future and improving quality of life for all our constituents—in a strong United Kingdom, in a strong European Union, and in multinational organisations such as the World Trade Organisation, NATO and the United Nations.

There are downsides to a second referendum. Some people have asked, “What are you so scared of?” but I do not think it should be done lightly. A referendum creates economic uncertainty; we saw what happened to investment in the Scottish economy in the run-up to 2014. It also creates a distraction for Government. The huge constitutional upheaval meant that there was less focus on other issues in the Scottish Government and, bluntly, we see that now with the Government’s focus on Brexit. I do not say that in an overly negative way, but as a basic fact. I have been a Minister so I know what it is like to have a ministerial box and all the competing issues that a Minister must turn their attention to. I can only imagine the extra stuff that Ministers are having to wade through for the Brexit negotiations, as was no doubt the case for the Scottish Government in the run-up to the independence referendum—and would have been even more so if the referendum had had a different result. I do not think referendums should be embarked on lightly because of those issues.

Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister, sometimes seems to have reflected on whether she has the mandate, as hon. Members have mentioned. Her words sometimes suggest that the referendum is on the back burner for now, but I am concerned by the way that SNP Members firmly stick to that mandate article. They fail to appreciate the anger on the doorsteps at this year’s election. Some of us were elected, or re-elected, in June because people in our constituencies in Scotland felt so strongly that indyref2 must be stopped. I have never experienced an election campaign like it where one issue has been so overwhelming and the determination has been so complete. The SNP lost 21 seats in that election, so a little more humility and a little more listening to the people of Scotland is in order from SNP Members. The people of Scotland deserve that, and the SNP should take heed for the sake of party preservation.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 20th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I appreciate the length of time that the hon. Gentleman has spent working on this issue over his political career. I also believe that it is important that the parties can work together, because the origins of youth unemployment lie elsewhere, rather than just under this Government’s tenure. I am happy to work with him and others to ensure that we get all the best ideas focused on tackling youth unemployment.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I welcome the Secretary of State’s recent visit to my constituency’s largest employer, Aviva in Bishopbriggs, which has 1,100 staff, and his support for my “Get East Dunbartonshire Working” initiative, which has helped to create 43 new employment and training opportunities in the local area since the end of April. What more can the Government do to ensure that businesses are aware of the support that is available, particularly through the £1 billion youth contract, to employ young people in particular?

[Michael Moore]

I thank my hon. Friend for the opportunity to pay a visit with her to the Aviva offices in her constituency, and I pay tribute to Aviva for the work it is doing with young people and others. It is very important that we do all that we can to support young people. That is why the youth contract is now in place, boosting work experience, increasing the number of wage incentives that are available and ensuring that the Scottish Government have support for more apprenticeships.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I would have thought that the hon. Gentleman was above such personal attacks. My own preference is for fish and chips. He will know that there are plenty of places in Galashiels and elsewhere where a fine fish supper can be had. We have had to take tough decisions, but have made sure that everything is fair on that particular front.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in difficult economic times it is vital for the Government to help people on low incomes by cutting their taxes and taking the lowest paid out of tax, which is in stark contrast to the last Labour Government, who doubled the 10p tax rate, hitting the lowest paid the hardest?

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman rightly continues to focus on this issue. We are all deeply concerned about youth unemployment. I have visited his constituency, and I have also had other meetings in Ayrshire and elsewhere, and it is right that we should join the Scottish Government, employers and all the agencies to help young people—aged between 16 and 18 and of any age—to find work or support. The youth contract that we announced before Christmas will bring £1 billion of extra investment into supporting the young unemployed, whether through wage incentives, additional work experience and opportunities or money to the Scottish Government. That money could also be used to create the school-industry liaison groups the hon. Gentleman wants.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

As the Secretary of State says, youth unemployment is a huge concern for Members of all parties and for people across Scotland. The youth contract will help by providing 40,000 opportunities for young people in Scotland, but this problem will not be solved easily, so what will my right hon. Friend do to bring together people from the UK Government, the jobcentres and the Scottish Government, as well as business employers and education representatives, to offer the opportunities that young people in Scotland need?

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman needs to pay attention to people at the CBI and others and recognise that it is self-evident that when there is uncertainty about the constitutional future of Scotland, investment decisions will become difficult. I want to get all question of uncertainty removed from the debate. I cannot understand why they seem so reluctant to get on with it.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

The SNP at Holyrood has a political mandate to hold a referendum on independence, so I welcome my right hon. Friend’s plans to devolve the powers so that it can be held legally and fairly, but does he agree that page 28 of the SNP manifesto clearly shows that that mandate is for a simple yes-no question, so that there is no confusion, no legal chaos, just a decisive result, decided by the voters, not the courts?

[Michael Moore]

There have been a number of months where the prospect of two questions has been bandied around, although when pressed Ministers were unable to answer how one would determine which result to pay heed to if both were given yes votes, particularly if independence got, say, 51% and extra powers got 80%. Apparently, independence would have won. We need a single, clear question, and I am glad that after many months of skirting around this, the Deputy First Minister yesterday conceded that point and said she wanted a single question herself.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 14th September 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

People are acutely aware of the problems caused by the weather last winter and the winter before that. That is why the measures to keep resilience in the network are particularly important. Equally, however, we need to recognise that that adds cost to consumers, which is why we are maintaining the cold weather payments. We will also have the winter fuel allowance and, through our new measures, we will enhance the support for vulnerable people across Scotland.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Many of my constituents, particularly those on low incomes, are struggling with the large increases in their gas and electricity bills. I very much welcome the recent news that Ofgem has brought in a firm of specialist auditors to help its investigation into whether the high energy prices are really justified, and I look forward to seeing its report at the end of the year. Will the Secretary of State and his colleagues ensure that Ofgem has all the necessary support to carry out a thorough investigation, and sufficient powers to sanction the big six, in particular, if, as I expect, it finds that they have been acting unfairly?

[Michael Moore]

Certainly, a feature of the discussions that I have been having recently is that many of the energy companies recognise that they need to regain the trust of the consumer concerning price rises and the reasons that they have come about. In the next few weeks I will be bringing energy companies and consumer groups in Scotland together to look at these issues in detail. I will ensure that the companies focus on the appropriate responses and that we take away whatever work we need to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[David Mundell]

As my hon. Friend knows, the coalition’s programme for government promised to establish a commission to consider the West Lothian question. A commission will be established this year to consider it, and the Government are committed to addressing the issue. We are continuing to give careful consideration to the timing, composition, scope and remit of the commission. It will need to take into account our proposals for reform of the House of Lords to create a wholly or mainly elected second Chamber, the changes in how this House does its business, and amendments to the devolution regimes such as those in the Scotland Bill, which is now before the House.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

12. What discussions he has had with ministerial colleagues on the potential for renewable energy generation in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

I have regular discussions with ministerial colleagues on a wide range of energy-related issues. Scotland has a growing reputation as a world leader in renewable energy, and we will continue to work with industry and the Scottish Government to develop these opportunities.

[Jo Swinson]

I thank the Secretary of State for that reply. Last month, six Scottish wind farms were paid a total of £900,000 to stop producing energy because the grid could not absorb it. What will the Government do to strengthen grid capacity and improve energy storage so that that kind of waste does not happen, and so that Scotland can properly harness its vast resources of marine, hydro and wind energy?

[Michael Moore]

First, may I highlight the fact that, under the complex energy management arrangements for the grid, arrangements have to be made from time to time to ensure that we can stop or increase energy production? Through those arrangements, payments are made for stopping and increasing production; that is understood. The Government have set out an ambitious programme for energy reform through our energy market reform proposals. The consultation on that programme was recently concluded, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change intends to publish a White Paper on the subject in the near future. Through that, and through other measures such as the transmission grid charges review, we will seek to ensure that we have the capacity and capability to exploit the renewable energy potential not only of Scotland but of the whole United Kingdom. Our other initiatives relating to the green investment bank and the offer to the Scottish Government to release the fossil fuel surplus are indicative of our intention to play a full part in the renewables revolution.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 1st December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I welcome the Minister’s acceptance that the correspondence could have been handled better on the cancellation of the Glasgow contract, because as a result of letters sent out by UKBA, vulnerable people, including many families, were left in a state of extreme anxiety about where they would be living. Can he reassure us that lessons will be learned from this, so that such mistakes are not repeated in future?

[David Mundell]

Indeed, I can give the hon. Lady that assurance. As soon as these issues came to light, the Secretary of State for Scotland was in contact with the Immigration Minister. There is a recognition that the correspondence was inappropriate, and a number of measures have been taken. For example, everyone affected will have at least 14 days’ notice if they have to move. Progress has been made. The initial letter was regrettable, but the situation will be better in future.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jo Swinson Excerpts

Wednesday 16th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

As the hon. Lady knows, the transmission charging regime is primarily a matter for the National Grid. It is an issue that others have raised with me and Ofgem. I shall be keen to talk further about it with her and others from the Scottish Government. There have been representations from all sides of the House already—it has been a busy few days—and I look forward to taking forward those discussions in the most appropriate form in the future.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend to his position. I am pleased to hear what he said about marine renewables, for which Scotland clearly has a massive potential, yet six years after it was set up, the marine renewables development fund still has £42 million lying unclaimed and unused because of the criteria attached to it. Will my right hon. Friend look into the matter and ensure that under this Government the support announced for green energy becomes reality?

[Michael Moore]

I thank my hon. Friend for her kind welcome. I take on board her observations about the criteria that have been used, and I look forward to having further discussions with her and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change.