Electronic Travel Authorisation: Northern Ireland

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Tuesday 18th July 2023 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered Electronic Travel Authorisation and Northern Ireland.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Dame Maria. I thank the Minister for his attendance.

This debate is not about the concept or the introduction of the electronic travel authorisation itself, though I have my concerns in that regard. Rather, the debate covers the implications for the movement of residents and tourists on the island of Ireland, and especially the implications for Northern Ireland. Significant concerns have been expressed by the Northern Ireland Tourism Alliance, Tourism NI, Tourism Ireland, the Committee on the Administration of Justice and other stakeholders in Northern Ireland. The issue has also been raised with the Government by the Irish Government and in the Oireachtas, the Irish Parliament. The key, overarching point is that a one-size-fits-all approach to the world does not work when it comes to the island of Ireland.

Of course, we have the common travel area, which has been in place since the 1920s. By convention, it allows free movement and residency for British and Irish citizens, with associated rights and privileges. Although the UK and Ireland have always had their own immigration rules and systems for other nationalities, until recently there has been a relatively free flow of other residents and tourists from non-visa jurisdictions across the island. I welcome the exemption to the ETA requirements for non-visa third-country permanent residents in the Republic of Ireland, which I and others had been calling for, but there is a lack of clarity on the evidence requirements for legal residents of Ireland. The UK Government had committed to publish guidance on which documents would be accepted as proof of legal residence, but I do not think that has been published yet. Given the nature of land crossings, it is essential that a pragmatic approach is taken, as many people will drive over the border without ID documents.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman on bringing forward this important and pragmatic debate on the practicalities of the issue. Does he agree that, for the hospitality industry, the ability of residents of Northern Ireland to travel freely to the Republic for a night away, and the ability of the residents of the Republic to avail themselves of the world-class facilities in Northern Ireland—especially in Strangford, where the beauty and the attractions are very obvious—must be as seamless as someone coming over on a boat from Scotland or hopping on a flight from Liverpool for a boys’ weekend away?

[Stephen Farry]

I thank my colleague from Northern Ireland, who represents the constituency neighbouring mine. I agree with everything the hon. Member said, with a minor exception: I would put North Down marginally ahead of Strangford, obviously. Yes, the ETA has to work in both directions.

It is essential that immigration enforcement throughout the UK is familiar with the exemption and the documents that can be accepted, as it applies to travel within the entire common travel area. We need to know what happens if someone who is exempt from an ETA is encountered and has no documents proving their legal residence in Ireland, as this will happen from time to time. Will they be given an opportunity to return to Ireland or to provide the documents subsequently, or will they face criminal prosecution and immigration detention?

Overall, the exemption illustrates that it is possible for the Government to be pragmatic in recognising the particular circumstances in Ireland and the reality of the thousands of daily journeys by non-UK or non-Irish citizens: to shop, for leisure, for medical appointments, for education, and in some cases to work. The focal point for flexibility is now largely centred around tourism, although there is considerable disappointment in the tourism sector that similar flexibilities were not announced at the same time as they were for residents in Ireland.

It is important to note two key, overarching factors. First, under the Good Friday agreement, Ireland is marketed internationally as a single destination. The success of tourism on the island is one of the standard examples of successful north-south co-operation. Secondly, most visitors to the island of Ireland, including those who travel onwards to Northern Ireland, enter through airports and seaports in the south. The overwhelming majority of international flights to the island come via Dublin, especially from the lucrative North American market. Overall, 70% of international visitors to Northern Ireland start in the Republic of Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend and colleague for reminding us of that important factor, which cannot be ignored. The leader of Sinn Féin across all Ireland, north and south, is a Member for her political party down south and has jurisdiction through her party in Northern Ireland as well, so what happens in Dublin will clearly have an impact on Northern Ireland. I therefore believe, like my hon. Friend and others, that we cannot ignore the issue in this House. That is the point that I think he was making, and I concur totally.

The DUP was proud to table new clause 7, but it was not selected for debate. It would have changed the date of the local government elections in 2023 to take into consideration the King’s coronation celebrations. Because Northern Ireland elections are conducted under proportional representation, counting takes significantly longer than is normal in other parts of the United Kingdom.

[Stephen Farry]

May I put it on the record that my party agrees with the DUP on the issue? There may well be some degree of consensus on a pragmatic reform to take into account the need to respect the coronation and respect the elections in Northern Ireland. I hope that that gives the Northern Ireland Office a hint.

[Jim Shannon]

Well, we have a consensus! I am pleased to hear that the hon. Member and his party concur with our opinion, so I hope that when the Minister of State replies to the debate he will give us a positive answer. It is important because if 4 May remains election day, the results will extend into coronation day. That is the very nature of what will happen back home, so it must be changed to ensure the public participation of candidates, the electoral office staff, who are an important part of it all, and the party supporters attending count centres. I urge the Government to take our proposal into immediate consideration for the sake of the celebration of the King’s coronation, and I thank the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) for his support.

The amendments that the DUP has tabled are for the greater good of Northern Ireland and our economic and constitutional position within this great United Kingdom. We hope that the Government will listen to us. They must be assured of our stealth and determination in regard to the damaging effect that the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill is having on Northern Ireland.

Energy Price Support: Northern Ireland

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Westminster Hall

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered energy price support to households and businesses in Northern Ireland.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. Sir Gary. I welcome the opportunity to have this debate and I am pleased that the Minister has joined us. The main purpose is to focus on energy cost support for households and businesses in Northern Ireland, with a focus on the urgent delivery of the £400 energy support scheme and the payments to those using home heating oil.

I am extremely concerned about the impact of delays in support for Northern Ireland households, and the ongoing lack of clarity around when that support will arise. The UK Government have yet to clarify whether the £400 energy support and the £100 in support for oil-reliant households will be made available to Northern Ireland.

I will give a few words on the broader context. I appreciate that the current energy cost crisis reflects a range of international and domestic factors. Beyond the short-term energy support interventions, there are clear imperatives around insulation and other energy-efficiency measures, and diversification of energy supply, especially in relation to renewables.

Northern Ireland has some of the most challenging rates of poverty and other social and economic indicators in the United Kingdom, including low productivity, high economic inactivity and reliance on benefits. It also has a different energy market from the rest of the UK, with different suppliers and a different profile of energy sources, and with its connectivity on the island of Ireland. Most notably, almost 70% of Northern Ireland households use home heating oil, compared with less than 5% in the rest of the UK.

Northern Ireland is already facing a series of unprecedented risks. Our political institutions have collapsed. There are huge challenges to consumer and business confidence, creating enhanced risks to the economic outlook.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) on securing this debate. It is a great subject for us back home. The welfare of our local businesses is extremely important. He will know that our family-run and smaller businesses are the backbone of our constituencies—his, mine and those of other Members here—making them unique.

A local Japanese restaurant in my constituency that has only been open for about six months has seen an increase in its electricity bills of £900 to £3,000 per month. Should this remain an issue, it is clear that jobs will be lost and the business forced to close. Does the hon. Member agree that more consideration must be given to the long term—not just the next four months, but beyond—because businesses are clearly on the brink of closing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Farry]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for that intervention, which again highlights how the situation in Northern Ireland is different from the rest of the UK, and reinforces the importance of trying to tailor solutions to address our very particular circumstances.

It also emerged this week that the UK Government’s joint taskforce responsible for delivering the scheme into Northern Ireland has met only twice. While households across the rest of the UK are being insulated from the worst effects of the crisis, families in Northern Ireland are still waiting for this lifeline and have no clarity about when it will arrive. It is not tenable to argue that, because the money will be coming next year, Northern Ireland will not be missing out. There must be a real urgency for getting this resolved now.

Disposable incomes in Northern Ireland are being particularly eroded by rising energy costs. This represents a grave threat to the wellbeing of households. People in Northern Ireland are also being left behind in terms of their ability to access energy support and are suffering as a result. A survey by National Energy Action in Northern Ireland in June indicated that 45% of Northern Ireland households were already spending more than 10% of their total household income on energy costs. This will be even higher now. That has resulted in dangerous coping mechanisms. Some 80% of Northern Ireland homes admitted to rationing their use of central heating in an effort to reduce costs, and one in 10 households has resorted to skipping meals to ensure that they have enough money to pay for their energy.

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman is being incredibly generous, and I thank him for that. Some figures I got from Northern Ireland today indicate that an estimated 12% of Northern Ireland families live in absolute poverty—it is even worse than normal poverty, if there could be such a thing. Does that not support his case for why we need urgent help in Northern Ireland now?

[Stephen Farry]

I am grateful again to the hon. Member for his intervention. Households are facing, in effect, destitution, which is taking poverty to the nth degree in terms of their ability to cope. Similarly, reliance on food banks has increased by 76% in Northern Ireland over the past three years, which is way in excess of the increase in any other UK region. We cannot afford to see households tipped into poverty, more children going hungry, or more pressure on the national health service due to worsening physical and mental health.

These behaviours put households at significantly increased risk of detrimental impacts on their health and wellbeing, and people in 75% of households admitted to being stressed, anxious or worried about paying for the cost of their energy, either at present or over the winter months ahead.

Fuel poverty organisations in Northern Ireland are already overwhelmed by demand. NEA in Northern Ireland has seen significant rises in the number of households seeking emergency support. Indeed, it was forced to suspend its referral system temporarily in October because of unsustainable levels of demand on the service, a trend that has now been replicated across other organisations in the sector.

There will also be a knock-on consequence for consumer spending. Potentially £300 million of spending power is at risk. This is particularly crucial in the run-up to Christmas, with many businesses, which are struggling themselves, depending on Christmas trade to survive. It is make or break time for them.

Northern Ireland is also suffering because we have a very different energy market from the rest of the UK, and the UK Government’s energy price guarantee does not reflect that. Although households using gas have been protected from price rises through the Government’s energy price cap, those who use oil are yet to receive the paltry £100 of support. That is a mere £100 in heating assistance, which applies to almost 70% of Northern Ireland households. Therefore, the vast majority of homes in Northern Ireland have not received a penny in support for heating cost pressures so far—that is, those households that do not use their electricity for heating.

We know that oil prices have not risen as much as gas prices. Nevertheless, £100 is simply not enough, particularly given the up-front costs of filling an oil tank. The Consumer Council for Northern Ireland estimates that it now costs £460 to fill a typical 500-litre tank, compared to £269 this time last year. In practice, as the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) has already mentioned, there is not a supplier in Northern Ireland that will provide a tank fill for less than 200 litres, meaning that households need to find an additional £150 before they can even avail themselves of support. Orders for oil need to be larger in order to access those economies of scale.

We also still do not know when or how this £100 will materialise in Northern Ireland. Not only is the assistance for Northern Ireland households late, but it is lower than the assistance provided to those in the rest of the UK, if we make that comparison between oil and gas costs.

There are also problems and distortions that come from the use of electricity bills to help oil customers. It is likely either that those people will end up with a credit on their electricity bill that they cannot access at this time of greater stress, or that this will lead to people switching from oil heating to using electric fires, which are potentially more expensive, pose greater health and safety risks, and put further strain on the electricity grid.

Finally, I am also worried about the looming cliff edge that is faced not only by households but by businesses next April. Recent research by Danske Bank indicates that energy prices rank highly among the key concerns for businesses in Northern Ireland. The latest data from the Office for National Statistics shows that 58% of businesses in the food and drink sector say that their energy prices were their main concern in November, up from 39% in October. Businesses are also extremely concerned about the risks associated with consumer spending, and the current impasse on the energy assistance for Northern Ireland puts local businesses at a direct disadvantage in that respect. I urge the Government to acknowledge that most businesses will likely need continued support, and to confirm that they will cast the net widely in that regard.

In summary, the human costs of this energy crisis are very real. I suspect that the ongoing uncertainty about post-April assistance will only serve to fuel the economic costs, as consumer spending and business investment will be constrained as a result. I urge the Government to provide assistance and greater clarity as a matter of extreme urgency, for the good of the people of Northern Ireland, the business community and indeed the broader economy, all of which will ultimately have fiscal consequences for the UK Government if conditions further deteriorate.

I am grateful to the Minister for his presence today. I will focus on the most pressing questions that I hope he will respond to, among other comments that he may wish to make. When and how will households receive the £400 of energy support? Will the Government review their calculation and the level of home heating oil support, and how is that support to be delivered?

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Committee stage
Wednesday 20th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

I am very pleased to be called to speak, Mr Evans. The Minister referred to the democratic deficit and clause 13, and that is what I want to focus on. I want to focus on the effect it has on my constituents in Strangford. I thank the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Theresa Villiers) for her significant contribution, too.

I have informed the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) that I intend to refer to some remarks that were made yesterday. Yesterday, I listened to him as he told hon. Members in the Chamber what conversations took place—he seemed to know better than I did—between me and Lakeland Dairies. To go on the record, let me be quite clear: I have been assured not that Lakeland Dairies is for or against the protocol; rather that it looks at the issue of the protocol and simply wants to know how we intend to deal with it in this place, so it has the information to move forward.

I refuse to allow others in this place to misrepresent me and my relationship with one of the largest employers in my constituency of Strangford. It is also noteworthy that meetings took place on a regular basis between myself and Lakeland Dairies staff, because they understand that I am up to the case and up to the job of helping them. I have had meetings with Lakeland Dairies directors, the Minister here and Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. They were quite clear where they are on those issues. So that is where we are, on the record.

I want to see a way that works for Lakeland Dairies, but also for the seed farmers in my constituency, for the small business person, for the dog owner and for the pharmacist. Lakeland Dairies is not against that either. It has stated an opinion on how its business is currently operating and wants to know how to continue to grow its incredible global enterprise. That should not be twisted by any Member, whether it be the hon. Member for North Down or any other Member.

[Stephen Farry]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way. It is perhaps useful to distinguish between what are two separate conversations. One is a business saying that, on how the protocol is addressed, it is pragmatic, open-minded or indeed that it does not take a position in that respect. Yesterday, we were having a very good separate discussion on dual regulation. I was articulating the views expressed quite openly by the Dairy Council. It is worth making clear that the authoritative information I have is that Lakeland Dairies is entirely in agreement with the stated public position of the Dairy Council.

[Jim Shannon]

For the record again, I repeat, and do so with authority: Lakeland Dairies has told me that whatever legislation is in place, if it assists the Bill to go through it will work with that, north and south, to make it happen—and that is the important point.

It is all very well for the hon. Gentleman to read off a bit of paper and say this group supports this and that groups supports that, but let me tell him something. He reads it off a bit of paper. The difference between him and me is that I live this every day. When it comes to knowing the difference between a field of barley and a field of wheat, do you know something? I know it because I live it. When it comes to knowing the difference between a cauliflower and a cabbage, I know it—I don’t read it on a bit of paper. When it comes to knowing the difference between a Friesian cow and a Dexter cow, I know the difference. You know why? Because I live it. The hon. Member just reads it on a bit of paper.

If you want to know the difference, Mr Evans, between a John Deere tractor and a Ford tractor, I know it because I live it every day. I do not read it off a bit of paper. With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, he can read it off a bit of paper and know nothing about it, but you can live it and know everything about it. That is the difference—

[Stephen Farry]

I’ve milked the cow!

[Jim Shannon]

Well, have you brought your wellies? He wants to go and buy himself a pair of wellies. Before he goes on to the farmer’s field, he’d better ask for the farmer for his permission.

I am quite concerned about how we are, so let me be rightly understood in the Committee today. The protocol can undoubtedly work for some—I have never said that it does not—but the fact of the matter is that the majority of individuals who have approached me in my constituency have told me that it does not work for them and their businesses.

If the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) was here, I could ream off to her, if she had the time and the patience to listen to me, perhaps 100 businesses in my constituency that are impacted by it. They have told me that it does not work for them or their businesses. I believe that to be replicated in other constituencies. In my intervention on the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet, I referred to businesses in South Down and West Belfast. I mentioned another one yesterday. Again, the hon. Member for North Down ignored it as if it did not matter, but it matters to me because a constituent of mine is involved.

Sam McChesney, who was on “Countryfile” on Sunday night, said that the protocol as it is at this moment impacts greatly on him, and on his cattle and his sheep. He cannot take his cattle across to the markets in Carlisle and the rest of north England or in Scotland without a financial equation being involved. Just for the record, he happens to be a member of the Ulster Farmers Union, as am I—I declare that as an interest. The hon. Member for North Down can read things off a bit of paper and hold up some names, but he does not know it because he has not lived it, unlike we who understand the agricultural business and who speak to the farmers.

I spoke to farmers on the 12th day; they happened to be in my lodge, Kircubbin LOL 1900—true blues they are, just for the record. They were telling me their thoughts on the Northern Ireland protocol and why they want it changed. When we live with them, understand them, socialise with them, and are members of a lodge with them, then when they tell us what their problems are on the farm, we know it because we live it—we don’t read it off a bit of paper. That is the issue for me; I just want to put it on the record.

I also have concerns about the 300 hours spent by the EU not to find a solution—if only that were the case—but just to be obstinate and awkward, and never at any stage to have it in mind to deal with this.

I want to ask the Minister some questions because yesterday I met people involved in the pharmaceutical business; I will be happy if he can come back to me at a later stage with answers. Should the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill pass, can the Government confirm that the regulation of all medicines, health technologies and vaccines in Northern Ireland will fully and exclusively fall under the remit of the UK Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency as the primary assessor and regulator, and no longer under the European Medicines Agency, as is currently the case? I want to make sure that what I am looking for and what they asked me to ask about is in place. They also seek confirmation that in such an eventuality all pharmacovigilance reporting for drugs, medicines and vaccines will thus transfer fully and exclusively to the UK MHRA.

Similarly, can the Government confirm that should the Bill become law the testing and batch release of relevant health technologies and vaccines will fully and exclusively fall under the UK National Institute for Biological Standards and Control, and that the European official medicine control laboratories network will no longer have any responsibility for Northern Ireland? Can it subsequently be confirmed that the requirements under the falsified medicines directive, which includes products having to be serialised and barcoded for decommissioning, will also no longer be required for Northern Ireland, as is already the case for the rest of the UK?

Importantly, pharmacies and pharmaceutical companies are asking for the same thing that the agricultural representative bodies that I referred to earlier are looking for: an explanation of the transitional arrangements and preparations that have been made and an account of what guidance will be issued to urgently bring clarity. Most businesses understand the nature of this Bill, but they need to know that they will have useful information from day one and not be left uncertain, as they have been in recent days.

Certainty is the order of the day: certainty that Northern Ireland can trade with her biggest market; certainty that Northern Ireland citizens can access the same medicines as the rest of the United Kingdom; certainty that farmers can get seed potatoes from, or sell their beef to, their biggest market, the UK mainland; certainty that people can take their dog on a staycation trip to Scotland without a costly pet passport; certainty that they can see their Amazon order delivered without a message telling them the seller will not post outside the United Kingdom because they think Northern Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom; certainty that they can order dog biscuits, frames or plastic flowers from their supplier without needing to fill out paperwork for each colour of each flower, which shows how absurd the EU is and why this Northern Ireland Protocol Bill needs to be law, giving us in Northern Ireland the same opportunities as the rest of the United Kingdom; certainty that our Chancellor and Government in this House can progress state aids which are currently being withheld from the people in Northern Ireland struggling with the price of daily living; certainty that the Unionist voice in Northern Ireland in terms of the upholding of the Belfast agreement is on equal footing with the nationalist voice, facilitated in this House by the SDLP and Alliance party pan-nationalist front, which is aided, disappointingly, by some on the Labour Benches—there are some that do not, but there are some that do; and certainty that, unless the people of the Province determine otherwise by a democratic specific vote, we still have the right to call ourselves as British as Finchley, as Margaret Thatcher once famously said.

This Bill is not perfect, but it starts a journey back to certainty that every single person in Northern Ireland deserves. I ask that we do the right thing.

I will refer briefly to clause 18 and the amendments tabled by SDLP and Alliance party Members, including amendments 46, 48 and 49. Despite the fact that all those Members have sat in the Northern Ireland Assembly and that they are intelligent and thoughtful individuals, there seems to be a grave misunderstanding about the role of this House in legislating through the Bill. It is not for the Northern Ireland Assembly to circumnavigate the decisions of the Minister as they pertain to individual protocol issues. Those Members should well understand the role of this House in rectifying the complete override of this House that was caused by accepting the role of a foreign power in Northern Ireland—namely, the EU: that insatiable giant that soaks everything up and takes all the goodness away. Its power was abused to punish the temerity of the British people for seeking to withdraw from Europe. We wanted to withdraw from Europe, and the Bill would give us the same authority and make me as British as Members on the Government Benches.

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Committee stage
Tuesday 19th July 2022 Commons Chamber

[Stephen Farry]

Indeed. Unfortunately this is the outworkings of Brexit, which the hon. Member pursued. We have a protocol in place to manage the fall-out from that decision, and a whole host of implications will flow from it. I am very sceptical, as indeed is the business community, about the notion of dual routes, but if that were to be conceded in relation to any one set of products or commodities, it would have to be by negotiation with the European Union. If not, that flow of trade would not have recognition and it would not work for the business sector in question.

On consultation, I want to highlight the current run of propaganda videos coming from the Northern Ireland Office. We are joined by the new Secretary of State, whom I welcome to his place. Those videos focus very heavily on haulage, which of course does have some particular concerns, but that comes at the expense of other interest groups in the business community where there is a very different narrative. Of course businesses recognise the need for some modifications to the protocol, but more and more say that the protocol is working for them and they do not want those aspects to be compromised, undermined or ditched. Those are the voices that the Government are not listening to, never mind seeking to promote.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On the programme “Countryfile” on Sunday night, a farmer from my constituency, Sam McChesney, outlined very clearly that the Northern Ireland protocol is affecting him, and his lamb and beef. He cannot sell beef cattle across the water to the mainland in the way that he once did. He said that he wants to see changes to the nitty-gritty of the bureaucracy, red tape and small print that is affecting his business, and that if this continues as it is, he will not be in business. Will the hon. Member take a deep breath and think about what Sam McChesney said, and then he will think the same as us and ask for the changes that he wants to see?

[Stephen Farry]

I advise the hon. Gentleman to reflect on some of the things that the Ulster Farmers Union has been saying about this aspect of the Bill. He should listen to what the Northern Ireland Meat Exporters Association is saying—so if the gentleman he mentions is exporting meat, that is what his trade body is saying. Of course there should be no obstacle for anyone in Northern Ireland selling into Great Britain, but we are in danger of losing the ability for meat producers in Northern Ireland to sell into the Republic of Ireland and onwards into the European Union. [Interruption.] I will come to that in a moment, if the hon. Gentleman wishes to have some degree of patience.

We will also talk about the interests of the dairy sector in Northern Ireland. If the hon. Gentleman wants to reflect the views of his constituents, he will be aware that one of the major employers in his constituency is Lakeland Dairies, which, along with the wider dairy sector, is extremely exercised about this aspect of the Bill.

[Jim Shannon]

I have met the chief executive of Lakeland Dairies on a number of occasions, and I do so regularly, because it is a major employer in my constituency. He says that he can work with this process, and if changes to the Bill come through, he can also work with that. There are factories south of the border and north of the border. Lakeland Dairies wants a workable system and says that it can work with this. I am not sure who the hon. Member is talking to, but I talk to the chief executive regularly and he tells me that he can deal with the system and with the issues as they come forward.

[Stephen Farry]

We will talk about the dairy sector in much greater detail shortly. Indeed, it has given significant evidence to Committees in this Parliament. Whenever we talk about the dairy sector, it is important to bear in mind that this idea of the hon. Gentleman’s that we will end up with segregated production, north versus south, is not feasible. If that was to be introduced, the lead-in time would potentially be two to three years, and the costs would be between £200 million and £250 million, so the notion that this is an easy option is a major fallacy. Indeed, the notion that we want to spend extra money to reorientate an industry that works quite successfully at the moment is for the birds.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Farry]

Absolutely; I concur very much with what the hon. Member says. Regulation sometimes has a negative connotation, but it is there to protect everyone’s interests and it is there for often very good and valid reasons. It is noticeable that we do not have the Foreign Secretary with us today—or indeed for any stage of the Bill, apart from the first hour—even though she has been very keen to promote it, for whatever agenda she has.

[Jim Shannon]

It is because it is right.

[Stephen Farry]

If I can make some progress, clause 7 essentially introduces a dual regulatory system for regulated classes of goods to which any provision of annexe 2 to the Northern Ireland protocol applies, including manufactured goods, medicines and agri-food. It envisages businesses having a choice over the regulatory route between UK requirements and EU requirements, or both.

On the surface, that sounds benign, but it is in fact unworkable. To be clear, there is an implicit element of acceptance that there will be different regulatory regimes, and maybe standards, in the concept of a red-green lane for Northern Ireland customer final destination goods that pose no threat to the single market. It is important to acknowledge that subtlety, but we are focusing in this debate on dual regulation that covers ingredients, components and goods that may enter the single market via further processing or as a final good. More and more businesses in Northern Ireland are exporting to the Republic of Ireland and the rest of the European Union. Since Brexit, this trade has grown significantly. That is market forces in operation, reacting to changing conditions. There is nothing malign about it whatsoever.

If this dual regulation were implemented, it would have major consequences. It would create chaos in many sectors of the Northern Ireland economy and increase the risk of economic crime, including smuggling. Even the Bill itself entails uncertainty for investment decisions, never mind the implications of its full application. It would mean Northern Ireland losing access to the single market for goods, both in practice, as companies in the Republic of Ireland or the rest of the EU would see Northern Ireland products as risky, and as a matter of law.

Such moves would threaten the comparative advantage that Northern Ireland goods currently have from unfettered access to both the Great Britain market and the EU single market. More widely, they raise the question as to how and where the interface between the UK economic zone and the EU single market will be managed. There is a commonality of consequences from the Government unilaterally trying to impose dual regulation, alongside similar measures to disapply article 5 of the protocol and annexe 2 to the protocol, and also the marginalisation of the European Court of Justice, which we will talk about tomorrow.

No doubt the Government and others will argue that GB and EU regulations will in practice be the same, just as they argued that their version of the management of movements between GB and Northern Ireland would protect the EU single market, but this neglects the fundamental point, which relates to the legal regime, in which there has to be either dynamic alignment or mutual recognition. That can be created and maintained only via negotiation, with an agreed means of enforcement. Many sectors of the Northern Ireland economy have both supply chains and sales that operate on both an east-west and a north-south basis. That can only be managed with one set of regulations.

Let us explore one particular sector in depth, the dairy sector, which a number of Members have already drawn me on. The dairy sector is heavily integrated across the island of Ireland. That reflects specialisation and economies of scale. It is an entirely sensible set of arrangements. Every year, about 800 million litres of raw milk, about a third of the entire output, goes to the Republic of Ireland for processing. There is full traceability of that milk. The milk is then often mixed with raw milk from south of the border. It can be mixed, as both Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland milk is produced to the common EU standards and, crucially, recognised as such. It then goes in to final products, or sometimes into intermediate products that come back to Northern Ireland for final processing, for example at Lakeland Dairies in the neighbouring constituency of Strangford.

Shared Prosperity Fund: Devolved Administrations

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is not often that I am called first to speak. Indeed, I am always shocked that it should happen—and very pleased, too; thank you so much, Sir Edward.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Belfast South (Claire Hanna) on her excellent representations for the project that we all wish to see more of—the shared prosperity fund. As she said, we want to see more funds filtering down to our constituencies. She referred to three or four things, including the TieTa group and its three owners from Monaco. I just said to my hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann (Carla Lockhart), “Who wants to live in Monaco when you can live in Millisle?” That is because Millisle is in my constituency, of course—at least, part of it is.

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Just for the record, Millisle is in my constituency.

[Jim Shannon]

No, for the record, the Drumfad Road—the Drumfad estate right up to the car park—is in mine. I know it is, because I knock those doors.

I am very pleased to support the hon. Member for Belfast South in bringing the debate forward. There is absolutely no doubt that the shared prosperity fund is needed to build on work that has been done in every region of the United Kingdom through EU funding. Not to be too pedantic, but it is always great to get a percentage of the money that we funnelled into the EU back into our communities. I am very pleased that we have been able to do that.

I share a semblance of the dismay outlined by the hon. Lady, my Northern Ireland colleague—we are from different parties but very much on the same page on this issue—yet I am perhaps a wee bit more optimistic. I suppose I tend to be more optimistic about life—the glass is always half-full rather than half-empty—because there are good things happening. To be fair to the hon. Lady, she outlined the issues but also where we can go with this, and I want to do the same.

When the new Minister of State, the right hon. Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns)—it is lovely to see him in his place—was appointed, I quickly asked him to come down to the most beautiful constituency in the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Strangford. I say to the hon. Member for North Down (Stephen Farry) that that is not in dispute. I was very pleased to bring the Minister down to Strangford. I know that he has a deep interest in Northern Ireland—it has always been in his blood and in his life—so it was good to get him down to Strangford to introduce him to some of the issues on which the shared prosperity fund could make the difference.

I want speak to those issues and to give the Minister a taste of the concerns. I spoke to him before the debate and said, “Here are my thoughts; are those things that you would like to do?” and he very quickly said that he would. Issues such as the local high street and how it should feature, and our education system, are key for every one of us. We had a chance to go to Castle Gardens School, and we went to the high street and met the chamber of trade in Newtownards town. There is also our tourism industry; we went to Mount Stewart, and we had a lovely lunch in Harrisons in the constituency. That is one of the tourism projects that has taken off.

In two major areas in which the EU has had control over subsidies in the past, we spoke to the fishermen and, importantly, to the community representatives. The Minister asked for that specifically, and I was very pleased to make that happen. Those are the sorts of things—the changes in the community—that we want. I think I referred to them as the journeys that people have taken away from the past to a new future. Those are the sorts of things that I wish to speak about.

The Minister acknowledged the awful handling of the situation so far for the fishermen. I know that the fishermen in Portavogie were particularly enthralled with the Minister. Sir Edward, if you ever want somebody to imitate our Prime Minister, he is the man who can do it—nobody can do it better. For one minute, if I closed my eyes, I thought it was the Prime Minister. The Minister issued a promise to get it right with his colleagues; he did that for us, and we appreciate that. I got him to meet with the local community representatives from one of the estates in my area, a very progressive community group that is probably one of the best in the Ards area. I did so with a clear view of showing him how far so many have come in our town, and the giant leap forward there has been in the work that they carry out. It is work that it is essential to continue. That is why the shared prosperity fund is so important; it makes a difference and builds a future that we can all wrap our arms around and be part of.

I felt that the Minister took seriously the five areas that I had highlighted. The group he wanted to meet again was the community group, and in particular, its young people. I could see that the Minister was interested. He, like myself and the community group, could see where the future needs to be built. The shared prosperity fund is one way of doing that. We heard how the community wanted to move away from the actions and the reactions of the past. They want to train the new generations in a new way of doing and looking at things. They want to train the new generation to look at things in a way that, some time ago, the community did not, and, if I am perfectly honest, in a way that I did not 40 years ago either. The Minister saw the value of facilitating the local community network through European funding and his response was clear: the work must continue. I subscribe to that. That is what the hon. Member for Belfast South wants. I believe it will continue, but we need a wee bit of help.

We look to the Minister. I know I have been referring to the Minister of State at the Northern Ireland Office—he will forgive me for that, but I wanted to tell the story because it is part of where we are. I look to the Minister for a positive response. That cannot happen without dedicated funding. I have highlighted the areas in my constituency that need help from the fund, including the small businesses that we met on that day; people working in fishing and agriculture, which are still major employers; tourism, which Ards and North Down Council believes is key to building the economy; and our community and educators. Funding for innovation is also essential for large business expansion.

All of that is necessary for a flourishing Northern Ireland—a Northern Ireland for everyone. That is what I want to see, it is what the hon. Member for Belfast South wants to see, and it is what the Minister wants to see. I am sure that everyone else here wants to see the same thing. There is work to be done, and more to do. We have moved forward with a contribution from both sides of the community working together. There is an appetite to do it; there is an appetite from elected representatives, from the Minister and from others here today.

I encourage the Minister to announce the parameters of the fund, to allow every area—not just my constituency, but Belfast South and every constituency in Northern Ireland—the support. We need to help Northern Ireland, and indeed the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as whole, to live up to our potential. I believe that Northern Ireland has that potential, we just need help through the shared prosperity fund to do that. There is no pressure on the Minister, whatsoever, but will he tell us what he will do for us? We want to take that journey together—all parties and all representatives, along with our Minister and our Government.

Covid-19: Future UK-EU Relationship

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Covid-19 has absolutely affected every walk of life. It is my belief that no person in this nation has been untouched by it, and the first words in the debate title are“covid-19”. There are those who grieve the loss of good people—upstanding members of our communities and families—and people we have been unable to grieve appropriately. As we move into a closer approximation of normal, that loss of life is felt more keenly.

I want to speak about covid-19, and then comment on where we—or rather I—stand. We have lost businesses and jobs. I have a big hospitality business in my area that is in the resort game. It has invested £150,000 of its money, and it is at a loss at the moment to find a way forward. I am very aware of its circumstances, which may be only the tip of the job loss iceberg. The action of the Government has prevented a crash for a great many business—that is true—but we will undoubtedly be fighting economically for many years to come; indeed, our grandchildren may feel the pinch in their working life if we do not get this right.

Just in my small office of six members of staff and myself, one member of staff lost her sister at the end of March to coronavirus. She was unable to bid her a final goodbye and is deeply hurting. Another member of staff was due to be married in Italy at the end of June, but she has seen her plans decimated and brought to nothing. Another staff member is originally from Australia but now lives in Northern Ireland. She heard sad news of her sister in Australia who is in an intensive care unit, but again she could not visit her family or speak to them. I have another staff member whose mother-in-law was diagnosed with terminal cancer, but again, they were not able to do anything about that. My parliamentary aide has two wee daughters, one of whom has uncontrolled asthma. She has been shielding for 16 weeks, and will be until the end of August.

I say those things because, as with my staff members and many others across this great nation, people’s quality of life and mental health has been massively affected by coronavirus. I say that to put a human aspect into this debate, and to underline what the cost has been to normal, everyday people. The negotiations that we are now doing must be carried out with less grandstanding, and by sorting these problems out.

I cannot create jobs out of nothing for those who have lost businesses. I do not have that ability, but this Government can, the Northern Ireland Assembly can, the Scottish Parliament can, and the Welsh Assembly can. I can, however, be part of the solution in this House when making decisions to promote employment, and ensure that the Government do their best for Northern Ireland. I cannot undo the mental trauma that has affected my nation, but I can be a positive force for a bright future, and that is what I wish to highlight today.

I am very fond of my Gaelic cousins on the SNP Benches, and I genuinely mean that in all honesty. However, I am so divorced from their point of view given what they have said—that is respectful to them all, and they know that—that this is one cousin who will not be voting for their proposal tonight. I do not want this to be a sniping opportunity to rehash the old “deal or no deal” arguments that we can all repeat in our sleep; I believe our role as MPs is to think sensibly and create hope, and having the same old arguments about the pros and cons of the European Union does not give hope for our future. Instead, constructive dialogue about a sensible way to carry out the wishes of the people is the way to do that.

In the 2016 referendum, my constituency of Strangford voted by 56% to 44% to leave—that is unlike the constituency of the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Down (Stephen Farry), where it was very marginal at 50.1%. That is all it was.

[Stephen Farry]

52%.

[Jim Shannon]

Can we take a moment to consider what we hope to achieve in today’s debate? My desire is simple: it is to say on behalf of Strangford, let us stop the tearing down and start the building up. Let us work for our agrifood sector—I look to the Government to ensure that happens—and for our fishing villages in Portavogie, Ardglass and Kilkeel. Let us put pride and confidence back into the fishing community, grow that economy, and create jobs. We can do that after Brexit. We can do that when we leave—I very much believe that in my heart, and boy do I look forward to that day.

Let us work together in this place to present a united front to Europe to say—possibly for the first time—that although we want the best for our country, that does not mean that the European Union has to be the loser. If we think and work sensibly together, and build up trading partnerships that are beneficial, we all can win—that is everybody; all regions together—and help our economies and constituents who have been ravaged by this unseen enemy. As my mother would say, today we should say, “Enough of the messing and more of the achieving!” Where there is a will there is a way. We should respect the will of our people, who made it very clear in June 2016. We must get the best possible future in place, with sensible dialogue and the end of senseless rhetoric. We all voted together in that referendum, and we voted to leave.

Abortion (Northern Ireland) (No. 2) Regulations 2020

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Monday 8th June 2020 General Committees

[Jim Shannon]

I very much appreciate the opportunity to address this Committee on a matter that I have a great interest in. Abortion is a devolved matter and it should be a devolved matter for Northern Ireland. My hon. Friend the Member for Upper Bann referred to the fact that 100,000 people in Northern Ireland today are alive because of our legislation. That was disputed by some, but the fact is that after an investigation it was clear that that figure was reasonable. It has been important for people in the rest of the UK, but it is very important for us in Northern Ireland. Some of the people we meet are alive today because of our legislation.

In 2016, the democratically elected Northern Ireland Assembly voted on primary legislation not to change our abortion law. The process begun in July last year is ongoing. We are all very fond of the Minister, but on this issue we really are at different ends of the spectrum. This impacts our law and constitution and poses deep questions.

The first convention that was flouted was through the application of the accelerated procedure. The fast-tracking of Northern Ireland legislation reduces further the scrutiny that these measures should receive. We reiterate our concern about the routine nature of fast-tracking legislation relating to Northern Ireland.

The second convention that was flouted was that, despite the Clerks’ advice to MPs, the amendment that became section 19 was clearly out of the scope of the Bill. The whole point of constitutional democracy is that it is not crudely majoritarian, especially if the policy affects different national units of different sizes, but it is subject to constitutional rules, devised for the good of the polity as a whole. Constitutional rules, however, have been ignored.

The third constitutional convention that was violated was the convention that Westminster should not vote on a devolved matter: 100% of MPs who took their seats in Northern Ireland were present, and 100% of those who were present voted against a change in the law. The constitutional outrage was and is on a par with two very dark moments in the recent history of the Union, which are now regarded as huge mistakes, and which have both been the subject of public apologies.

Others Members have referred to how much the Union means to them—how much it means to you, Sir David, and how much it means to us as Members. In the 1950s, it was decided that Liverpool needed access to another reservoir. It was decided that the best way of doing would be to flood and thereby destroy a village in Wales called Tryweryn. The people of Wales were rightly outraged that a Government should deem it appropriate to remove an entire village, with its history and its culture: 35 out of the 36 Welsh MPs voted against, yet the legislation was passed in this House, disregarding the opinion of the MPs in Wales.

The people in Scotland were rightly outraged in the late 1980s when the Government proposed to make Scotland the guinea pig and introduced the poll tax one year early. In the vote, the overwhelming majority of Scottish MPs voted against the legislation; yet it was passed, courtesy of the votes of MPs with no mandate in Scotland to make decisions. In 2005, the city of Liverpool finally issued an apology to the people of Wales. David Cameron also issued a public apology to the people of Scotland for this particular abuse.

I will quote a couple of people, although I am very conscious of time. Professor Hill said:

“The text of international treaties such as CEDAW are carefully crafted expressions of intent and belief. There is no reference to abortion in the text of CEDAW. There is nothing in the text of CEDAW which requires a state party to allow abortion on specified grounds and/or decriminalise abortion generally. The absence of such a provision in the formal text gives a clear indication that no such obligation exists”.

It is not just the view of one lawyer. It is also the view of Supreme Court in 2017. The conventions and the covenant to which the UK is a party carefully stop short of calling upon national authorities to make abortion services generally available. Some of the committees go further down that path, but as a matter of international law the authority of their recommendations is slight. It is hard to find words to express how deeply distressing for the people of Northern Ireland it is to be disenfranchised, like they were in Wales in 1950 and like they were in Scotland in 1980.

What they were doing has been described as a travesty of constitutional due process. The terms of the law were completely rewritten from the text debated on one occasion by the House of Commons, and were then subject to a time-limited debate of one hour, which covered all Lords amendments and was dominated by Brexit. If we add up the fragments mentioning abortion and the amendment, it took up 17 minutes of debate. Again, that underlines our concerns.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said:

“Public consultation began on 4 November 2019 and lasted for a period of six weeks. In our view this is too short for so sensitive a topic. Added to which, it took place during the General Election period and in the run up to Christmas, neither of which conforms with best practice. Of the over 21,000 responses received, 79% registered general opposition to any change to the established position in Northern Ireland.”

I am not going quote, because of the time, Sir David, but David Scoffield QC has been on the record and answered on many occasions, and we cannot ignore his opinion:

“The NIO states that, where possible, this statutory framework mirrors the Abortion Act 1967 so that provision will be broadly consistent with the abortion services in the rest of the UK. The NIO was, however, obliged by law to implement the specific recommendations of the CEDAW Report which relate to Northern Ireland. This report has sought to expand on some of the Government’s policy choices and also to air the main issues drawn to our attention in submissions, to assist the House in the forthcoming debate.”

I would have to say that the Northern Ireland regulations need to be referred to the Attorney General. We have ignored the John Larkin recommendations to the Committee. He said that the regulations in section 9(11) do not go as far as being able to the Act, which is a reform in the recommendations.

[Stephen Farry]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jim Shannon]

I am conscious of the time, and the hon. Gentleman has had his chance. I also want to give the Minister a chance to respond.

Liz Crowter says:

“At 24 weeks babies are viable. You cannot have a law that says it is OK to end the lives of some viable human beings because they have Down Syndrome, while saying that other viable human beings of the same age cannot be because they don’t have a disability, without saying human beings with non-fatal disabilities are worthy of less protection and are therefore less valuable.”

It is not just Heidi Crowter. Máire Lea-Wilson’s one-year-old son Aidan has Down’s syndrome. Papers were lodged with the High Court just last week. Mindful of such things, Parliament must vote to reject the regulations and ask the Government to think again. We have a functioning Assembly that can make its own abortion law, as has happened since the 1861 Act. Yet the Government are proposing that, before 19 June, Parliament vote on a devolved matter by passing the regulations. Others have referred to the 75 MLAs who oppose abortion on the basis of non-fatal disability. My point is that there is a stronger legal argument for us to leave the matter to the Assembly.

I would like to ask the Minister some other questions, but I do not have time. I will finish with one more point. The Government have cast constitutional due process to one side, through pressing for out-of-scope amendments in the context of accelerated procedure; failing to point out that there was no international legal imperative for changing the law, especially if doing so involved violating a key constitutional convention; the effective disenfranchisement of the people of Northern Ireland on a Northern Ireland piece of legislation on a devolved matter; peers having only a few hours’ sight of the amendment that became law before the debate; permitting only 17 fragmented minutes of debate on a completely new text that proposed making hugely controversial changes through secondary rather than primary legislation; giving only six weeks for the consultation; knowing that 79% of people said, “Please don’t do this”; the failure to welcome the restoration of the Assembly as giving Parliament the opportunity to repeal section 9; the production of regulations that undermined devolution significantly more than Parliament required after the restoration of the Assembly; the production of regulations in respecr of which the Attorney General has pointed out that the Secretary of State repeatedly exceeded his power; and responding to the cross-community vote of the Assembly by rejecting the regulations with absolute authority.

The British constitutional position is predicated on the assumption that no Parliament can bind its successors. The 2017-19 Parliament, happily, is no exception. The Government now have the chance to extricate themselves from a catalogue of abuses and save themselves from the huge embarrassment of asking Members to vote for disability discrimination in violation of the requirement in paragraph 85 of the Committee report on the regulations.

St Patrick’s Day

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon]

Well—

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Jim Shannon]

I will.

--- Later in debate ---

[Stephen Farry]

For the sake of balance and inclusivity, it is worth reminding the House that St Patrick was, of course, Welsh.

[Jim Shannon]

He certainly was. This is my first Adjournment debate for many, many years, but I have intervened in a great many Adjournment debates held by other Members and I have been pleased to do so.

Budget Resolutions

Debate between Jim Shannon and Stephen Farry

Monday 16th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[Stephen Farry (North Down) (Alliance)]

rose—