Ukrainian Refugees

Debate between Jim Shannon and Anne McLaughlin

Monday 14th March 2022 Westminster Hall

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mr Gray. Today’s debate was opened by the hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell). Her speech demonstrated that she not only is knowledgeable about what is happening in this crisis, but cares deeply. In fact, I not only heard, but felt, that everyone who has spoken today cares. I would not say that it is not often that we feel that here, but I have never felt it to the extent that I have today. Everybody cares, and we must get something done as soon as possible.

The fault for what is happening to the people in Ukraine lies solely with Vladimir Putin and the Russian regime—not with the Russian people, any of us, any of the Governments that make up the UK or Europe, and certainly not with the people of Ukraine—the blame lies, fairly and squarely, with Vladimir Putin and his regime. It is important to acknowledge that. However, the fact that we did not cause the situation is irrelevant when it comes to offering our support.

Along with my friend and colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East (Stuart C. McDonald), I have been heavily involved in scrutinising the Nationality and Borders Bill, so when Russia so cruelly invaded and started bombing Ukraine, and Government Ministers started to remind us of Britain’s benevolent history, I worried a lot. I worried because I know that when the refugee sector named it the anti-refugee Bill, it was no exaggeration but an accurate description. I worried because a Government does not bring forward a Bill like that if they have any desire to protect people fleeing war, violence and terror. The Nationality and Borders Bill is clearly trying to send a signal that benevolent Britain is no more: “Don’t come here, because you will not be welcome.”

Of course, I know that the Bill has not yet been enacted; today, it reaches Report stage in the Lords. While I knew that those Ukrainians fleeing now, before that legislation is enacted, would be subject to the existing laws and rules, I was also very aware of how dreadful the current system is, and acutely aware of the attitude from this Government towards people in desperate need. That is why I was worried.

However, I hoped that the suddenness, the intensity, the urgency and, yes, sadly, the fact that they were European—which apparently makes a difference, although it should not—would kick-start the Government into action. I hoped that they would treat it as an emergency—a humanitarian catastrophe, where we simply had to help first and sort out the details later. That is what other countries have done, including Poland, Germany, France, and Italy. As per usual, they have taken far more people, proportionately, than we have or ever will—of that I am sure.

The Government keep telling whoever will listen that the UK takes in more people than other EU country, but that is not true. Last week at Prime Minister’s Questions, the Prime Minister said that the UK had done more to resettle vulnerable people than any other European country since 2015. However, it is not true.

When looking at the numbers per head of population, which is the only fair way to do it, for every 100,000 people, Sweden takes in 1,619; Germany takes in 1,274; Austria takes in 1,134; and Switzerland takes in 955. Does the Minister want me to tell him—I do not know if he knows this—how many we take in? For every 100,000 people, we take in 121. That makes the UK 17th—sometimes 18th—in the rankings in Europe. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East said, that is shocking. No European country can top the global list, because it is the developing countries—those most in need themselves—that take in the most people. Yes, that is right: those with the least are giving the most. More than 80% of the world’s displaced people are living in developing countries.

As we have heard, the Government have had to be dragged kicking and screaming into providing the level of support now being offered to Ukrainians, which still does not match other comparable countries or poorer countries. One day, the Government will offer refuge only to those who have a family connection, and that can only be a very narrow definition of “family”. The next day, they change it so that other family members can come over, but they still need a visa and a passport; then some of them do not need a visa, but others do; and those who do not have a passport still have to apply from Ukraine or wherever they have fled to, but there are no appointments.

[Jim Shannon]

It is always very easy to ask, “Have you got a passport?” but when the bombs are falling and the bullets are flying, there are buildings falling and people are in fear for their lives, the last thing they go for is their passport or their identification: they get out and they move. Many people do not have that passport or identification, not because they do not have it, but because they do not have it with them: it is lying in their wrecked house, back where they came from.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I absolutely agree. Many people have never had a passport because they have never had the money to go anywhere where they would require one, or they cannot afford one. As the hon. Member said, lots of people do not know where their passports are; I do not know where mine is, because I am not planning to go anywhere soon. I am not planning to be in the middle of a warzone and to need to know where my passport is.

When appointments are available, the appointment might be in a fortnight’s time. As we heard from the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper), a person might get through everything, jump through all the hoops and pass the test, and then be told to travel 350 miles to pick up their paperwork—it is ridiculous. As the hon. Member for Hampstead and Kilburn (Tulip Siddiq) told us, they might get to their appointment only to be told to discard their seven-year-old child who is not allowed to come in. I accept that that cannot be Home Office policy, and I saw the Minister frantically messaging to find out what had happened there, but what kind of person would do that? Is that the kind of person we would want in that job? I am absolutely certain that nobody thinks that person is suitable to be in that job. It is chaos: the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Andy Slaughter) likened it to a game of snakes and ladders, and he is not wrong. If it is confusing for hon. Members and their teams trying to keep up with the advice we can give people, how much more confusing is it for someone in a state of heightened anxiety who does not necessarily speak English? It is almost as if this Government do not want Ukrainians to come here.

Other Members have made important points today. My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry) said it was a disgrace that, several weeks on, this scheme has still not been properly set up. I share that feeling, but I imagine that neither of us is surprised, because we both have ongoing contact with Afghans who are stuck in Afghanistan, begging us to help all these months on, and we still have no advice for them. As the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Margaret Ferrier) said, there are people ready to help Ukrainians. We are getting emails daily from people who want to help, but do not know how. Obviously, I have not seen the statement in the Chamber, but I have not heard that much clarity is coming forward.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Motherwell and Wishaw (Marion Fellows) and others have pointed out, if a person is in a warzone, how are they supposed to apply online? Sometimes the internet is bad enough in Parliament, where we are not in a warzone; how is someone in a warzone supposed to be able to get internet? I could hear the exhaustion in my hon. Friend’s voice as she spoke so movingly about her constituent and his struggle to get his family into fortress Britain. He would still be battling if she had not fought tooth and nail for him, but what about all those who do not have that support?

Why are the experts in the field not being consulted—Refugee Action, or the Refugee Councils of England, Wales or Scotland? Positive Action in Housing is an organisation in Glasgow that has a long-running project through which people can host refugees. I would want to know that anyone generous enough to offer to do so is being properly checked, because the dangers are obvious. Perhaps the Government could speak to groups such as Positive Action in Housing. I would also want to know that every single person taken into someone’s home has the knowledge, the confidence and the means to reach out for help, should it be necessary.

UK-West Africa Relations

Debate between Jim Shannon and Anne McLaughlin

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge) on presenting an excellent debate for us all to participate in. Excellent speeches have already been made. It is great to make a contribution, especially in the light of my role as chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on international freedom of religion or belief. As the Minister and shadow Minister know, I take a human and moral standpoint when it comes to foreign aid, especially when it comes to religious freedom and religious liberties, issues that are regularly in my postbag in my constituency. Other Members I have spoken to tell me the same.

It is well documented that UK relations with west African countries are different with each individual country. Our influence waxes and wanes, so policies and aid vary according to the needs of the people who live there. As different and multicultural as they are, they all have one thing in common: they rely on our aid, support and assistance. We must ask ourselves whether we are effectively exerting our influence to bring substantial and lasting change to those nations, or simply handing out plasters in a situation that calls for surgery at the highest level.

Hon. Members have asked how our foreign aid will be affected by Brexit. How will it impact on our efforts with economic development and clean water? Some of the churches in my constituency of Strangford are directly involved in such aid. How will Brexit impact on stability in west Africa? How much protection and assistance will the Christian Church get from the UK Government in countries threatened with Islamic extremism and persecution?

One of the main west African recipients of aid in the financial year 2016-17 is Nigeria, which is getting some £306 million. It has a population of 160 million, more than 100 million of whom live on less than £1 a day. The main aims of our Government are to provide help with better services—education and health care—and we do some excellent work. The Library background information outlines some of what we do. Another aim is the establishment of an enabling Government who tackle corruption and enhance transparency and accountability. Corruption is a key issue, to which the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East referred. How many of the aims have not been reached? Recently UNICEF researchers and workers in northern Nigeria have spoken of the worst situation of hunger in the world. We cannot ignore that.

More than 3 million people in the region have been forced out of their homes, and aid agencies can reach many of the refugee camps only by helicopter. Oxfam workers accuse the army of doing nothing instead of securing access roads for aid agencies. As to Ministry of Defence and British forces assistance to the Nigerian army, we clearly have a commitment through the MOD and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. The RAF regiment is also there assisting the army in training. However, we must ask why the roads are not being cleared and made accessible for aid. If 3 million people are starving, why is the Nigerian army not doing what it is tasked to do, and what it has been trained to do by our Army? Are we doing enough to provide for the people there? Is there any way to get the Nigerian Government to do more?

There have been small successes since Muhammadu Buhari became president in 2015, with Boko Haram being pushed back from occupied territories in northern parts, but despite his intention to fight Boko Haram, he has seemed reluctant to respond to continued violence against the Christian population in the middle belt of Nigeria. In October more than 40 people were massacred in cold blood by Fulani herdsmen, for no other reason than that they were Christians. There is something seriously wrong when those things become small print in the papers, or we do not know about them at all. What advice or assistance has the Minister been able to give Nigeria with a view to helping our brethren? If he is not able to outline that in his response, I should be more than happy to have a letter from him to confirm that. It pains me as a Christian to hear that more than 12,000 Christians have been murdered, and more than 2,000 churches destroyed, by Islamic terrorism. It appears that little has been done to influence Nigeria by our Government or international bodies. The question must be asked: what are we doing? Is it enough, and are we doing it in the right way? Is our influence starting to take effect?

Islamic terrorism is not confined to Nigeria. There have been instances in other west African countries, such as Mali. Like other west African states, it has a poor standard of living, with 50% of its people living on less than £1.50 a day. To put that in perspective, that is less than we would unthinkingly spend on a cup of coffee. We do not give as much funding to Mali, but there is a need for that, especially given the threat of Islamic extremism. The 2012 Tuareg rebellion in the north severely weakened civil liberties and restricted the political rights of many people in the country. After the joint French and Malian military intervention the country has looked more stable; however, the small Christian population is still living in fear in Mali. What are we doing to assist them and give them succour?

We can see at first hand the destruction and the violent nature of radical Islam. Last week a bomb attack by al-Qaeda in the city of Gao killed 77 people and injured hundreds more. Were Members aware of that? It is a reflection on us all—including myself—if we do not know about such things taking place, and about what is happening in Mali. As to its relationship with France, will there now be a joint effort to support France in ridding Mali of al-Qaeda influence and stabilising the country?

I want to congratulate the aid workers, charities, churches, doctors and nurses and everyone involved in making Sierra Leone Ebola-free as of January 2016. What good news that was, and what a response there was from our Government as part of the plan. The country has a population of only 5.75 million, and more than half of the people live on less than £1.50 a day. With the state completely ravaged by Ebola, we know that a lot of work is needed to begin to get the country back on its feet socially and financially. As the Minister knows, British Army personnel have been there, as have aid workers; and we have given direct assistance. The Library note explains what has been done practically, and it is good news.

Our aim is to improve the education system, especially by giving more encouragement to girls, children with disabilities and the most marginalised in society; to support the private sector, particularly small and medium-sized enterprises—again in practical ways; and to help to tackle corruption through the innovative “pay no bribe” programme. Such practical changes are good steps forward. However, in the past week the news has been released that millions of dollars in funds to fight the Ebola virus have not been accounted for. Where did that money go? I would like to know what the Government have done about requesting an independent inquiry into where the funds we allocated have gone. How many lives could have been saved with the money that went missing? We need to get feet on the ground to source the misappropriated money, and help the relevant state institutions to hold those who were involved to account.

I want to mention the question of Yahya Jammeh, the former leader of Gambia—whose name probably sounds wrong pronounced in my Ulster Scots accent. Although he has finally been disposed of—boy, is that good news—after losing the election to Adama Barrow, I believe that there should be an international investigation into the war crimes of Mr Jammeh. After 22 years of holding office he has left the country in controversial circumstances, with accusations of embezzling some £8.8 million, which equates to what the country requires to pay for the civil service for a year. The hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) said that he has gone to Nigeria, although I am not sure whether that is true.

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

Last week I met some London-based members of the United Democratic party of Gambia. They were desperately worried about what would happen: would the inauguration go ahead; would the new president be able to come to Gambia at all? They said they expected some bloodshed, but there was not any. We should pay tribute to African leaders, people and politicians, for sorting things out for themselves. Often other countries come into such situations; yes, they do it to help, but the situation is seen as one where the people cannot do it themselves. However, in this case they have done it themselves. Will the hon. Gentleman join me in wishing them all the best for a peaceful transition to democracy?

[Jim Shannon]

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. Lady and I think that everyone in the House would subscribe to the change that has taken place; it is tremendously good news that Gambians did that themselves.

Mr Jammeh has been accused of human rights abuses such as torture, disappearances, unlawful imprisonments and massacres, and it seems that he thinks he can get off by disappearing. I plead with the Government to join forces with the UN and hold Mr Jammeh accountable for his crimes. The Economic Community of West African States has been a successful project to improve the finances and infrastructure of west African countries. As a developed state we need to encourage and develop ECOWAS so that in the future it can develop those countries; they can then lead the way for other African states, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Anne McLaughlin) said in her intervention.

I hope that in response to today’s debate the Government will see the need not only to protect the people of west Africa from radical Islam but to give them the impetus to develop their nations socially, financially and politically. It will be a positive move forward if we can engender that; if we can enable them to do it, and encourage them. Those nations can then give themselves the future they want and deserve. The old adage applies, about giving a man a fish or a net. I want to be sure that we are providing nets—I am sure that the Minister will respond that we are—and that they are being used to provide a future for the people of the countries in question rather than hammocks for a corrupt leadership. Let us hope that we can make that change.

We must do what we can, and ensure that what we do is used for the correct purpose. I believe that the FCO, embassies and ambassadors, and the Minister in particular, have a major role to play, and that that has a bearing on the influence of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and on our role in effecting change in the western region of Africa. It has been a pleasure to speak in the debate; it was an opportunity to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves.

International Human Rights Day

Debate between Jim Shannon and Anne McLaughlin

Thursday 10th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Anne McLaughlin (Glasgow North East) (SNP)]

I congratulate the hon. Members for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and for Congleton (Fiona Bruce), the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), and my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh)—I am going to train everyone to say the “ch” in “Ochil” at some stage—on securing this important debate.

It is remarkable that out of the bloodshed and destruction of the second world war was forged perhaps the defining guarantee of all that allows democracy and liberty to be defended—the universal declaration of human rights, which we commemorate and reflect on today. What may prove even more remarkable in the long term is that this declaration was endorsed by member states reflecting all of humanity’s philosophies, religions and political systems. That in itself should be a positive and timely reminder of the values that we share right across the globe in the face of those who seek to spread division and discord from behind the barrel of a gun or from the top of a soap box. At its heart, the declaration is a recognition and codification of the inherent dignity and rights of all members of the human family. It is not a bestowal of rights by a generous overlord, state or international organisation.

We might wish to reflect on that as we consider the human rights situation in our own jurisdiction. The different parts of the UK have made their own contributions to the recognition of human rights: for English Members, there is the Magna Carta, to which the right hon. Member for East Ham referred, and for Scottish Members, there is the Declaration of Arbroath, which provided a fundamental recognition of the freedom from tyranny, usurpation and subjugation by foreign powers. However, just because these rights are timeless and universal, it does not mean they are always recognised in practice, as many have said today.

My party, my constituents and I are gravely concerned by the direction of travel, rhetoric and philosophy of the Government when it comes to human rights. Two of our finest organisations in this field, Amnesty International and Liberty, share those concerns and are already campaigning stridently to defend our Human Rights Act. While the British Government are moving in the wrong direction, however, let nobody think they are supported by the people of the countries of the UK or by civic society at large.

We are blessed on these islands to have produced some incredible charities, non-governmental organisations and community groups that provide lifelines for their fellow human beings with very little funding. I cannot name them all today, but I want to pay tribute to one, because today is the 30th anniversary of the Scottish Refugee Council, one of Scotland’s leading human rights agencies. I am proud to say it is recognised as an example of best practice in the UK, Europe and across the world. The SRC is known for its pioneering, holistic and asset-based approach to integration that recognises the dignity and resilience of refugees and works with them as actors in this through its holistic integration service. I am sure it would appreciate it if hon. Members signed my early-day motion marking its achievements.

I turn to the international context in which we operate and, in particular, the Saudi Arabians, who, as the hon. Member for Edmonton (Kate Osamor) said—I congratulate her on standing up again for people stuck in indefinite detention in the UK—are busy killing their own civilians and foreign nationals in the name of justice in the most barbaric ways possible: stoning, beheading and beheading followed by crucifixion. The Government argue that engagement with tyrannical regimes might help bring them back into the fold and towards a recognition of universal rights, and I have some sympathy with that view in principle, but in practice this strategy of engagement with Saudi Arabia is clearly not working. No matter how close our Governments and royals, the butchering of civilians in the name of justice increases.

Amnesty tells us that at least 151 people have been executed this year, with scores more due to be executed in the coming weeks. This is the worst rate of execution for 20 years and it includes many so-called crimes that are in fact the exercising of one’s right to free speech and protest. A Sri Lankan housemaid is about to be stoned to death in Saudi Arabia, and I thank the hon. Member for Mitcham and Morden (Siobhain McDonagh) for raising the rights of Tamils and pointing out that we cannot yet be confident that a change of regime in Sri Lanka will help the Tamils in that country. We need to keep a watching eye on that.

I had never really thought through what stoning entailed until I read about it recently. This woman will be buried up to her neck in sand, and a bunch of men will hurl bricks at her head. She, of course, will be unable to lift a hand to protect herself. There will be nothing to prevent those bricks from smashing into her eyeballs, bursting her nose open and caving in her skull. It was due to happen towards the end of this week. For all we know, she might be buried up to her neck in sand right now, waiting. It is the very Saudi Arabian regime that the Government have befriended that is doing it to this poor woman.

Trying to bring such as wolf in sheep’s clothing back into the fold is not working. It is not pragmatism; it is veiled indifference. As my hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) said, if the Government continue to choose receipts for arms sales over the defence of the declaration, any words they offer today will be empty and meaningless.

[Jim Shannon]

What comes to mind straight away when we are talking about Saudi Arabia are the 28 Christians —mostly women and children, but a few men—who were having a prayer meeting, but were arrested and then disappeared into the ether of Saudi Arabia. They have not been heard of since. That is another example of why Saudi Arabia needs to be taken to task.

[Anne McLaughlin]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. People have disappeared in Saudi Arabia and indeed across the world and nobody seems to know where they are. It seems that we will never find them, yet all that they have done is practise their own religion and their own faith.

The Government were quick to condemn any opposition over the Syria vote last week, but if there is one example of appeasement in the face of tyranny, it is the UK’s relationship with Saudi Arabia. I—and, I am sure, Members of other parties—would welcome a statement from the Government on the role of British-made weapons in the deaths of innocent civilians at the hands of Saudi forces in Yemen. I have received many emails from constituents about that very point. Our constituents hear about people, regardless of where they are in the world.

What of human rights here in Britain? Thanks to groups such as Liberty, we have some examples of how human rights, and particularly the Human Rights Act, have made a real-life impact on our constituents. That is important because, as the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth) said, there is a lot of confusion about what the Human Rights Act actually means.

Diana Bryant’s daughter Naomi was cruelly murdered by a convicted sex offender. Her daughter’s death was not going to be subject to an inquest because the murderer had already been identified. However, by using the Human Rights Act and article 2 on the right to life, Naomi Bryant’s mother, working with Liberty, managed to secure an inquest. That inquest identified a catalogue of failures by public agencies and other partners that allowed a known convicted sex offender to murder Naomi. Without the Human Rights Act, that inquest would not have happened and the victim’s family would have been denied the truth. All our constituents would still have been at risk from the same institutional malpractice that failed Naomi Bryant.

Who would not have supported that mother’s right? Who would not support the human rights of the families of our armed forces killed in action? Who would not support the right of Mr V, who successfully used the Human Rights Act to ensure that when his wife, living with Alzheimer’s, had to go into a nursing home, it was not one so far away as to make it impossible for him to visit her? Anyone who supports the repeal of the Human Rights Act, that is who.

Let me close with the words of Thomas Muir of Hunters Hill, educated at Glasgow University, which were subsequently cited on the high street of Glasgow at my constituency’s boundary. Muir was sentenced to transportation to Botany Bay for sedition, simply for exercising his right to free expression as it is now generally known—outside regimes such as Saudi Arabia, of course. Speaking from the dock, Muir said:

“I have devoted myself to the cause of The People. It is a good cause—it shall ultimately prevail—it shall finally triumph.”

Human rights and their international recognition, protection and fulfilment are the modern successor to that fight, protecting the voiceless, defending the vulnerable. Advocates such as the imprisoned Saudi human rights lawyer, Waleed Abu al-Khair, are the modern successors to Thomas Muir. My party will continue to fight with all its power to defend them, whether it be through the universal declaration, the European convention or our own Human Rights Act. To do otherwise would be an abdication of our responsibilities and would render pointless our time in this place.

Psychoactive Substances Bill [Lords]

Debate between Jim Shannon and Anne McLaughlin

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

An organisation called FASA, which is doing some great work in my constituency, has indicated to me its concern that resources be put in place to help people off those legal highs when the law changes—I hope—next April. Should the Government look at that as well?

[Anne McLaughlin]

I will always support treating drug use as a health issue above anything else, so obviously I would support giving help to people struggling with it.

The Bill addresses the difficulties that have arisen in controlling the use of these substances under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971. The SNP supports the aims of the Bill, and the Scottish Government have been working with the Home Office and other partners in combating the use of harmful NPSs. Let us not pretend that they are not harmful. A Scottish Drugs Forum survey of drug services in 2013 provided a summary of some of the key harms associated with NPS use—overdose and temporary psychotic states, attendance at A and E, hospital admissions, sudden increase in body temperature and heart rate, coma, risk to internal organs, hallucination and vomiting. The list goes on. Some would argue that many of these effects can occur as a result of alcohol abuse, but with these substances no abuse is necessary; simply their use can have catastrophic effects. There were also some associated long-term health issues such as an increase in mental health issues, including psychosis, paranoia, anxiety, psychiatric complications and depression —and dependency, which can happen over a very short period of time, sometimes just a matter of weeks.

Many hon. Members will have received correspondence from their constituents, and today we have heard some horrifying examples of the impact of these substances. Faced with a personal testimony and a growing body of research from health practitioners and academic researchers, we have a duty as legislators to get this legislation right. We are not yet there. The Committee must explore in detail some of the concerns raised today, including the issue of driving sales underground, internet sales and how to ban them, either on the clearnet or the darknet, and the issue of proportionality in sentencing, which the hon. Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown) mentioned. There are many other issues, too.

The Scottish Government have commissioned research to look at trends and, more importantly, at the motivations of those consuming these substances. In February this year, the expert review group commissioned by the Scottish Government put forward a number of recommendations, which should be of interest to Members in debating the Bill. One of these was the development of a definition of “new psychoactive substances”, which could be used across all sectors attempting to deal with these issues, especially the NHS and enforcement agencies.

It is crucial to ensure that we get the definition of NPS right in this Bill. Speaking as a new Member, I often wonder whether it is just the way things are done here, but I am quite certain that most Members would agree it is not acceptable to have reached this stage of legislation while still not having a definition with which everyone can agree. Most alarmingly, the chair of the Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has said that the definition we are being asked to agree to is unworkable. I urge the Bill Committee to consider the evidence of the ACMD and find a workable definition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Shannon]

I do not want to let this subject pass. The Republic of Ireland has very clear legislation with a very clear meaning. Does the hon. Lady feel that the Republic of Ireland has set in place legislation that could set a precedent for the rest of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Anne McLaughlin]

I think the legislation in the Republic of Ireland is interesting. It is one of a number of countries whose legislation we should look at. A number of countries throughout the world have experience of legislating on this issue, and we should reflect on such legislation.

A related issue that also featured in the recommendations is ensuring a cross-agency working approach, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh) discussed with the Minister earlier, that is required to tackle what is a sophisticated—unlike myself—emerging and extremely adaptable public health problem. If we get this Bill right, it will be a significant step forward. That is why I ask the Government to ensure that the legislation is not rushed. Although we all would like to see this threat dealt with speedily, it is in no one’s interest to see the Bill rushed through with loopholes that can be exploited by the producers of these products in the future.

At the age of 18, I recall thinking that people in their 20s, including 20-year-olds, were so much older and far too old to understand what it was like for us 18-year-olds. It sounds ridiculous now that I have aged just a fraction, but it is just a fact of life that if any of us here—and yes, this might even include my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands)—were to try to tell a young person about the potential hazards of these substances, they would be more likely to switch off, asking themselves, “What do they know?” It is therefore crucial that young people equip themselves with the facts and educate each other. We can support that education, but we absolutely must work with young people.

In recognition of that point, Paul Wheelhouse, the Scottish Government’s Community Safety and Legal Affairs Minister, attended an event at the Scottish Youth Parliament at the end of September to discuss the best approaches to raising awareness of the dangers of NPSs. The SNP Government will continue to work closely with the SYP—there are too many letters here—and they will shortly present a report on their findings to the NPS ministerial cross-party working group.

I would urge both Governments to continue to work with young people, but I would urge them to work with a broad spectrum of young people. For example, looked-after young people who have come through the care system will have a different perspective from those who have grown up in a traditional family. Young people with BME backgrounds may have a very different perspective from members of the predominant race in their society, and those growing up in poorer areas and households will undoubtedly see things very differently from those with healthier upbringings.

I want to share with Members my perspective on all this during my youth. I confess that I have never—not once—touched a single illegal substance. I say “confess” because when I was growing up, it was a bit of a confession. There was a lot of peer pressure, although nothing like as much as there is today. I managed to resist all temptation because of a hauntingly beautiful young woman of whom I would catch a glimpse from time to time as my dad dropped my mum off at work. My mother was a psychiatric nurse who worked night shifts. I always said that I could not do that, but here I am.

Fiona was not the name of that beautiful young woman, but that is what I am going to call her. She had a look of Snow White about her. She was 18. She had been celebrating with her friends, and she had had much to celebrate, because she had just heard that she had managed to get straight As and would be heading off to medical school the following month. She did not make it. Instead, she ended up in a locked ward with my mum as one of her nurses. She remained there for almost four decades, and has only now moved into supported accommodation.

Fiona’s life turned out to be so different from the one to which she had been looking forward on that fateful night. She ended up in hospital that night, and spent nearly four decades there, because she had taken something. No one knew exactly what it was, and her friends say that her drink must have been spiked because she would not have done it voluntarily. Who knows the truth? But it was a hallucinogenic, and it sparked off a latent psychosis which might have lain dormant throughout her life. Instead, it was activated that night, and her life became dominated by terrifying panic attacks, hallucinations, and paranoia so great that she felt like a kidnap victim who was being kept against her will rather than a patient being cared for by my mum and her colleagues.

This hauntingly beautiful, extremely intelligent young woman with a bright future ahead of her got none of what she deserved from life. Her story is an extreme one, and the risks of the same thing happening are relatively low, but the consequences would be too great for anyone to bear. There were too many unknowns for a control freak like me, and, by telling me that story, my mother very cleverly guaranteed that I would never take the risk.

There will be many different motivations that entice or drive young people to experiment with mind-altering substances, and many different messages that prevent others from experimenting. Our primary interest should be in keeping them safe and healthy, not in punishing them. I therefore welcome the commitment that I believe the Bill provides to criminalising suppliers and not users. I also welcome the Minister’s assurance, following interventions from Members on both sides of the House, that he will iron out the anomalies in clause 8. Not sitting in moral or legal judgment of those who use these substances will give us a huge head start when we are trying to find ways to discourage them. The Bill is right to target those who gain a financial benefit from dangerous substances, the dealers and producers. Many NPSs are cynically marketed to avoid existing restrictions while also making clear what effect they will have on the purchaser.

There is an important international context as well. As the example of Poland shows, if we do not ensure that our neighbours are on side, legislation in one country can be undermined by a lack of legislation in neighbouring states. NPSs are developed and sold across international markets. The European Monitoring Centre for Drugs and Drug Addiction has emphasised the importance of international collaboration in information collection and data-sharing, and, indeed, the G8 countries have agreed to share data on NPSs. It is worth noting, however, that most of these products are produced in China and India and then shipped in bulk to Europe, where they are sold to consumers. It is also worth noting that the Prime Minister is to meet the Prime Minister of India shortly when he visits the UK—and, of course, we are all too well aware of the state visit of the President of China, which will start tomorrow. Perhaps the Minister will ask the Prime Minister to raise the need for international collaboration on NPSs with both Mr Modi and President Xi Jinping.

In conclusion, the SNP supports the Bill at this stage, but not unequivocally. We believe there is a job ahead for the Bill Committee to catch up with where we should have been now in terms of the definitions, and I would like to think the Committee will take a robust approach and listen to those who have expressed concerns about the working of the Bill, and to those who have more experience, like Professor Iversen, as well as to those who currently use psychoactive substances recreationally. Their voices will inform us greatly.

We do not want to be having to return time and again to amend the Bill, nor do we want to have to look at repealing it because it is unworkable, as the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) suggested we might have to do at some stage. Let us get it right from the start. The best way to do this is to collaborate with as many interested parties as possible.

Humanitarian Crisis in the Mediterranean and Europe

Debate between Jim Shannon and Anne McLaughlin

Wednesday 9th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Anne McLaughlin]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention.

My city of Glasgow is built on the back of those fleeing crisis: cleared highlanders whose houses were burned down so they could never return; Irishmen and women looking for refuge after the famine; Jewish families from the Baltic fleeing pogroms under the Tsars; and more recent refugees who have come and established themselves in Glasgow, many in my constituency.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Lady for making such a passionate speech. I have not heard anyone mention—perhaps I just missed it—those countries that have not accepted any refugees, such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the United Arab Emirates. Do countries in the region not need to accept people and take some of the pressure off everyone else?

[Anne McLaughlin]

I do not disagree. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Stewart McDonald) made that point yesterday. Of course I am not saying the United Kingdom is the worst country in the world at taking asylum seekers and refugees. There are countries that are not doing anything and should be doing something.

It is always worth repeating—and I do it now—that Glasgow welcomes refugees and Scotland welcomes refugees. I am probably not going to win many fans today by admitting that for once I was not too upset to see my beloved Scotland football team being beaten on Monday evening. [Hon. Members: “What?”] If that is the response, I think my hon. Friends and the many Scots on the other Benches might feel I have gone a step too far when I admit that part of me even cheered on the team that beat us—I am sorry. In all seriousness, if we had to lose—and it seems that for a change we did—I cannot currently think of a better country to lose to than Germany. The way in which the German Federal Government and, more importantly, the ordinary people of Germany have opened their borders, their homes and their hearts to fellow human beings in desperate need has been nothing short of inspirational. And if my team wants to let them win at football by way of thanks, so be it.

The United Kingdom has the capacity to do so much more in this crisis. The people of the UK have made it clear that they want the Government to do more to save lives. I urge the Government to think about how they would like their response to this humanitarian disaster to be remembered in the history books and to act accordingly.