Access Rights to Grandparents

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd May 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston) on securing the debate. We talked about it last Thursday, when we were away with the armed forces parliamentary scheme. When I heard what he was planning to say, I mentioned that I was keen to come along and support him. I have constituents who think the same as he does, which is why I am here: first, to support him and, secondly, to look to the Minister for her thoughts on how we can make things happen.

The issue is close to my heart. I am thankful for a wonderful daughter-in-law who allows me to bring my grandchildren to church and Sunday school, to tag along at family dinners when time permits and, with my wife, to enjoy family holidays with them. Such occasions with children and grandchildren are always precious, whenever they may be.

Looking to the past, I find that my sons always had a great advocate not only in their mother, who is truly a warrior mum, but in their grandparents, who simply adored them. No breakage in my grandmother or my mother’s house, even of special china or collectibles, was so bad. If it was my children who broke them, their grandparents would said, “Don’t worry about that”—it was not the same when I was young, but that is by the way. Even when it came to writing on the wall, it was never vandalism but artwork, and not a word was said, other than, “That’s all right.”

I was often amazed that the parents who believed firmly in the “spare the rod and spoil the child” doctrine when it came to raising me and my brothers and sister were suddenly converted to saying, “It’s better they are spirited,” or, “There’s no harm in them,” or, my personal favourite, “You’re far too hard on them.” That was grandparents; they see things that wee bit differently. Words that were never applied to me found a home when it came to the boys, and now to the great-grandchildren.

Why is that? It is because the job of a grandparent is to love, to love some more and to love some more again. Hon. Members have referred to that in their contributions. I heartily support what they have said, and what others will say after me—I am conscious that others wish to speak, so I shall not go on for too much longer.

Discipline is for the parents; joy is for grandparents. As a grandparent now, I probably see that better than ever. For that reason, my heart aches when I think of the more than 20 decisions a day being made under the children order behind closed doors in courts in Northern Ireland. It grieves me greatly to see what is happening. Rather than mediation, under legislation in Northern Ireland families battle their way through the courts for access to children and grandchildren. An analysis of data from the family proceedings courts, the family care centres and the High Court found that 10,206 contact and residence orders had been made over the past three judicial years. Those orders can relate to more than one child. That is what is happening in Northern Ireland.

We have that system, which I wanted to speak about if I could in a short time. By comparison, Family Mediation NI, the largest provider of pre-court family mediation in Northern Ireland, received Government funding over the same period to assist only 750 families. That is just scraping at the edge of things. I understand that the Minister has no responsibility for the issue in Northern Ireland, but I wanted to give a Northern Ireland perspective in the debate, because it ties in with what the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire and others have said, and includes Scotland and Wales—throughout the United Kingdom. It is important to put that on the record.

There is no automatic right to apply for visitation for a grandparent, and that must change. We need to legislate to ensure that grandparents have their right to see and sow in the life of their grandchild, which is why I wholeheartedly support the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire and the themes and thoughts raised by other Members in speeches and interventions. I spoke on this issue the last time it came to the Floor—perhaps he secured the previous debate too—and I was later contacted by a lady who was not my constituent but had heard the debate. She thanked me for speaking out on her behalf as a grandparent. She was being denied access solely because of an argument between her son and his former spouse; it had nothing whatsoever to do with her or her family.

In conclusion, as a grandparent and someone who could not imagine life without my grandchildren, I ask the Minister to take the issue into consideration and to take the steps to make the changes necessary to allow grandparents basic rights to family life and love. That is all such people ask for: the chance to love their own flesh and blood, and not to be caught in the middle of a conflict that has absolutely nothing to do with them yet so deeply and irrevocably affects them.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lucy Frazer]

As always, my hon. Friend makes an important point that he expects me deal with, and I was just about to come to that. He made a very important point about out-of-court procedures. We need to look at the expensive and difficult court procedure, which sometimes increases conflict. That is not just the case when grandparents apply to court; in family law as a whole, courts can provide resolution for people who really need it but also increase conflict, particularly in family situations.

[Jim Shannon]

In my contribution I referred to Family Mediation NI, which has the specific task of trying to sort things out before they get to court. It was clear to me from a Northern Ireland perspective that had more money been available to it, many of those cases would have been sorted out beforehand and would never have got to court—I think that is what the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire was saying. If we can get to the point where we can try to mediate and solve problems rather than get into litigation, with all the nastiness that brings, that is where we want to be.

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Gentleman is right. It is critical that we solve these issues early on, before they get to court. We are reviewing legal aid generally, but legal aid can be available for mediation for early legal help. In that context, there is a fees remission scheme in relation to the application to court where the threshold is higher for people over 60. However, would it not be better if people did not go to court at all?

A number of issues have been raised and ideas put forward about how we can improve the system. One, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire and by the hon. Member for Ashfield (Gloria De Piero), was about the fact that grandparents have to apply for leave. Some people see that as an additional hurdle, but experience shows that grandparents do not usually experience any difficulty in obtaining permission when their application is motivated by a genuine concern for the interests of the child. That is because a person can seek the court’s permission at the same time as they make their substantive application simply by ticking the box on the relevant form, and there is no need to pay a separate fee. That can be part and parcel of the hearing.

The leave requirement is not designed to be an obstacle to grandparents or other family members; it is meant to be a filter to sift out applications that are clearly not in a child’s best interests, such as vexatious applications aimed at undermining one of the parents involved in a dispute over the child or continuing parental conflict. Leave was examined as part of the independent family justice review led by David Norgrove, which in its final report, published in November 2011, recommended that the requirement for grandparents to apply for leave should remain as it is because it

“prevents hopeless or vexatious applications that are not in the interests of the child.”

My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Worcestershire also identified the fact that it was unfortunate that sometimes children were placed for adoption, despite the fact that a grandparent might be willing to care for them. Grandparents can apply for special guardianship orders, and the local authority should give preference to placing a child with a family member. He also identified, as picked up by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), that there should be a change in the law in relation to presumption. We can look at that. He identified, and it is important to recognise, that some people think that elevates the grandparent’s involvement into a right, whereas, as I have identified, the family justice system puts the child, not the grandparent, at the heart of its consideration. As he accepts, there may be some unintended consequences that we will have to look into.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

There is already a proper plan to address that point about staffing. That is why the numbers are going up, and that is the point I am setting out. The numbers are at a five-year high. We are ahead of what we promised in October 2016. I am pleased that we are doing that and we will continue to recruit new prison officers—net new prison officers—into the Prison Service.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

What additional training will these new officers be given to deal with the scourge of the availability of drugs in our prisons throughout the United Kingdom?

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We are refreshing the way that training works for prison officers. It is very important that we deal with the issue of drugs, which has been a real game-changer in its effect on prisons. As we change and refresh our training process, we need to ensure that new prison officers have the skills they need to deal with drugs.

Court Closures and Reform

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to be called to speak in this debate, Mr Gray. I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Mr Dhesi) on setting out the case so very well and on giving us an opportunity to participate in the debate.

We increasingly live in an age that seeks to centralise things and to consolidate physical holdings. Why have a bank in rural villages when people can bank online and can attend the bank in the next bigger town? The next step, more recently, has been the closure of banks in our bigger towns, with the main town of my constituency, Newtownards, having lost the First Trust Bank, the Bank of Ireland and the Halifax bank, and all branches making changes to the way they do things, all in the name of streamlining.

Yes, we have to streamline—in a way this debate is about streamlining—and yes, we have to modernise, yet there is a time and a place for that. Like the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross), I want to comment on that and encourage the Minister. I know she listens to what we say and makes sure our viewpoints are taken on board, which is important.

I recently had a proposal on my desk to close the courthouse in Newtownards in order to centralise in Belfast. It was a worrying move that concerned us. The proposal was, if I can use these words, Mr Gray, absolutely crazy. The idea of closing the third biggest courthouse in the Province was simply a threat to justice in the area. The issue is as simple, as big and as important as that.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

The former Minister decided to close a lot of courthouses in Northern Ireland—a decision that the new Minister reversed. The former Minister would have closed the only courthouse in the city of Armagh, the citadel city. That decision was rightly reversed, so that people could still access it.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I will tell the story from my constituency, as the hon. Member for Moray told his constituency’s story. It is wonderful to discover that things in my constituency are very similar to those in Moray, because things happen that are universal across the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The Northern Ireland Department of Justice proposal was to reduce the court estate from 20 to 12—a 40% reduction. That is a massive reduction, and that did not include the courts that had already closed, including smaller courthouses such as a neighbouring one in Bangor, the closure of which was a downwards step. I believe that the level of closures was disproportionately high compared with the closures in England and Wales referred to in the Department of Justice consultation paper; there was a 28% reduction in 2010. That level of culling of courthouses in Northern Ireland was not necessary or beneficial, and did not provide basic access to local justice.

Newtownards courthouse has a significant volume of business. I want to put something important on record that relates to the reasons for retaining that courthouse: it is the busiest court outside Belfast and Londonderry, dealing with all types of specialised court business—civil, criminal and family. It is now a specialist centre for children’s courts, youth courts, magistrates courts, civil courts and Crown courts. The work of that courthouse has increased, taking a bit of pressure off the larger ones. Many disability living allowance and other benefit appeals are now held there, because the safety and security aspect is much better. That is important not only for confidentiality but for those who attend. The courthouse is now seen as thriving and constantly busy. It also brings business to the local coffee shops. The spin-off from the courthouses to the surrounding area can never be ignored, and shops in the town must also be taken into consideration.

The idea of taking justice from Ards to Belfast without just cause, closing the courthouse after spending almost £1 million on refurbishing it—the hon. Member for Slough referred to the spend on another courthouse—made no sense. Asking people to make the journey from Portaferry to Belfast made even less sense, and would in itself have been a barrier to justice, as the courts there are already overworked. The Department’s target that people should be able to reach a courthouse within an hour by car is fine for those who have a car in which to travel, but for too many people it is a matter of catching a bus or train. The hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) spoke about people having to make three bus changes to get to a new court. That is illogical and unfair. Catching a bus or train rarely, if ever, takes less time than it takes someone to jump into their own car.

Another important point is that people have to be at court at a particular time. They have to get up at whatever time is necessary and get on buses or trains to ensure that they arrive in advance. The hon. Gentleman referred to a four-hour journey for some people to get to court on public transport. The hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts)—I hope I said that right, Mr Gray; my Welsh accent is atrocious, but I tried very hard to grasp those two words—mentioned that as well. The issue of distance is very real to all of us in the Chamber.

I do not find the mentality of “Oh, what’s an hour’s drive?” acceptable. I do not accept it in my constituency of Strangford. I therefore support my hon. Friend the Member for Slough, if I can call him that, in his stand against the reforms in his constituency. The good news is that we managed to overturn them in ours. The legal community, the community of Newtownards, elected representatives, the local council and elected representatives from the Northern Ireland Assembly managed to combine our efforts and present an evidence base to Ministers to overturn the “economy savings” in my constituency by proving that it was a false economy. Ministers accepted that, and we now have a thriving and retained service in Newtownards as a result.

[Douglas Ross]

I am listening to the hon. Gentleman’s passionate speech about what happened in Northern Ireland, and how the Assembly listened to the concerns of the local community and experts. The Scottish Government and the Scottish National party failed to do that north of the border. There was clear evidence from experts and local communities that the 10 closures over two years would be damaging. We are now seeing that in Scotland, but the Scottish Government and the SNP would not listen.

[Jim Shannon]

I will not get involved in the local politics, but I will say that it is important always to listen to the evidence.

I trust that the hon. Member for Slough will succeed in showing that what matters more than the red or black line in the accounts is accessible justice—enabling victims to come to court and do what needs to be done, without being stressed by additional worries about journeys, bus routes or anything else. We should enable victims to have time to speak with their solicitor, rather than their solicitor being on the commute, unavailable to meet them until the court time. There are so many ways in which a victim is better supported by a court that is close to hand rather than removed. I know that the Minister has listened intently to all the comments in the Chamber, and will listen to those of the shadow Minister. I hope that the Minister will take on board those viewpoints and the evidential base for keeping courthouses in place.

Legal Aid: Birmingham Pub Bombings

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 27th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) on bringing this issue to the Chamber. He and the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips) passionately presented the case of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombs.

I am here today not because I am from Northern Ireland but because, like my hon. Friend the Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), I have empathy with and a real understanding of the victims’ families. In my constituency, there are many people in a similar situation, whose lives have been torn apart by evil men. The victims had no sin and no guilt, but were in the wrong place at the wrong time. While the world seeks to brush over the atrocities of the past, and people—at least in New York—seek to rename St Patrick’s day after the unrepentant terrorist Gerry Adams, the families of the 21 people murdered by the Birmingham bombs daily pay the price in sorrow and tears. The hon. Members for Birmingham, Northfield and for Birmingham, Yardley spoke with passion and belief. I am sure everyone in the Public Gallery is proud of them and of all Members who are here to support the case of the victims’ families and make sure it is well made.

The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley, in her passionate and compelling speech, told us about the victims of the Hillsborough disaster. Let us be quite clear: we all wanted them to get legal aid, but we also want the families of those who were killed in the Birmingham pub bombs to get it. Those families see single parents where once there were two; mothers at their child’s graveside, against the natural order of things; little girls walking down the aisle without their father; lives half-lived because huge parts have ripped away—all because IRA men decided to make their point by choosing that place at that time. That is my concern, and that is why I am here today. When the hon. Lady secured her Adjournment debate, I went along to support her, not because I intervene in them all but because I agree wholeheartedly with what she was trying to do. I am here to do the same thing again.

Those families seeking justice should not have to fight so hard in this day and age. When I think of the public money that was spent on the Bloody Sunday inquiry into an incident in which 13 people died—I am in no way trivialising those families’ heartache—and see a bill in excess of £195 million, I am flabbergasted. I cannot understand the rationale for not allowing the families to seek justice through the legal aid system. I make that point about the Hillsborough inquiry and about the Bloody Sunday inquiry.

Do the lives of those 21 people not count enough? Is it simply that the wrong people were killed? Do we run a two-tier system, in which some people are entitled to legal help for justice and closure while others are not allowed that support? I hope we do not. I am putting the Minister on the spot, but we look to her with concern, and we request a positive response. That is not the system I signed up for. I believe in real equality—hon. Members know that. Everybody aggrieved by the troubles deserves the same time, attention and support.

I read an article that said that although the application of the families of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombs for legal aid was turned down, the black cabbie rapist has accessed £166,000-worth of legal aid. Am I the only person who sees something wrong there? We all do. He got an obscene, disgraceful amount of legal aid. I am really lost for words sometimes when I try to understand how the system works. I stand by people’s right to have legal support regardless of whether they are innocent or guilty, but it hurts to see these families denied access when there is no question of guilt. I understand the system, but understanding it does not make it right. The fact is that this is wrong.

I say respectfully and gently to the Minister that I am looking to her to make it right and ensure this case is reassessed. For too long, the victims of IRA atrocities have had to fight for the recognition that their families are important. This fight for legal aid is yet another example of salt being poured into wounds that cannot heal because they are not allowed to. Reopen the inquest, hear the evidence, do the right thing by those people, who have done no wrong. Please—for those victims and the victims of terror at home, enough is enough. I want to send this message to those families: they are not being asked to drop the case while watching the perpetrators and masterminds being celebrated, lauded and, in some cases, almost canonised and made into saints. The families of the victims of the Birmingham pub bombs deserve at least as much help, support and consideration in their quest for justice as those affected by other troubles-related murders.

I support the families’ quest and that of the two MPs who have spoken and those in the Public Gallery who are here to request legal aid help. I am sorry for the price they are paying and the grief they continue to go through. I am sorry that they are not getting the support they should get without question. They are not alone; I stand with them in this House.

Victims of Crime: Rights

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 13th March 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak in today’s debate. I thank the hon. Member for Leeds North West (Alex Sobel) for presenting the case, and for giving us all more time than there might have been to speak on the matter. I am also conscious that you have indicated the timescale to which we all have to try to adhere, Mrs Main.

The issue of victims is incredibly sensitive and needs to be handled with care. There are many victims of physical, emotional and sexual assault who have been re-traumatised—I have said this before, in questions to the Minister in the Chamber—through the handling of their case. Many victims will not come forward, as they feel as if they are on trial themselves, and are not supported. I recently read an article on abortion by a baroness in Ireland. Although this is not the debate in which to bring up the abortion issue, I felt it was significant that she lost her baby as she was caught up in an IRA bombing. She describes herself and her child as victims, and remains traumatised to this day. Time has not healed that wound; she feels the pain of loss to this day, and will do so beyond. This is how we need to consider victims: not that something once happened to them, but that their life was irrevocably changed, and that that change has become part of their day-to-day life. They need care and help to go over that, and to deal with the aftermath.

We have a duty to victims to ensure that they are heard and supported. That was what was agreed when we passed the legislation, and voted to help to make victims feel secure and to create a system whereby crimes could be prosecuted, and victims could feel safe and able to feed into the process. Although the spirit of the current legislation agrees with that, there is no enforcement process. I ask the Minister how we move from guidelines and perceived support to enforcement.

It is little wonder that Baroness Newlove’s report in January 2015, “A Review of Complaints and Resolution for Victims of Crime”, found not very satisfactory results—that is how it was reported. It surveyed the experiences of some 200 victims and found that almost 75% were unhappy with the response they received. More than 50% found the relevant agency’s complaints process difficult to use. Have we moved on from that? Is the process easier? Is it more relevant?

A second review, “The Silenced Victim: A Review of the Victim Personal Statement”, was published in November 2015. It found inconsistencies in approach, with six out of 10 victims not recalling being offered the chance to make a victim personal statement. That also illustrates the things that we need to be addressing. I look to the Minister to see whether he can address those issues and give us the responses that we wish to hear.

To me, this says that what we set out to achieve through the legislation is not being achieved. We therefore need to make changes. First, we need to stop it being no more than a guideline or a suggestion, and ensure that it is enforceable and as much a duty in the prosecution of a case as any other aspect, such as evidence gathering.

[Dr Huq]

The hon. Gentleman talked about there not always being an audit trail. Does he agree with me that when victims of crime are abroad, such as my constituent Susan Sutovic, whose son died in mysterious circumstances in 2004 in Serbia, there needs to be some sort of diplomatic and legal framework to help those victims?

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Lady for that intervention; I agree with her. It is important that we have a framework in place. Hopefully the Minister, who I know is taking notes on the debate, will give us some response on how he sees that changing.

The care of the victim must be paramount and be seen as part and parcel of the justice system. I agree with the options presented in the Victim Support manifesto. There should be a single complaints system for victims of crime, a more powerful Victims’ Commissioner, and better communication with victims about the outcomes of their case—how often that falls down. Court compensation should be paid immediately and not linger on for months or sometimes years. Trained intermediaries should be available for all child witnesses—I know a lot of Members in the Chamber feel as strongly as I do about that. No child should be obliged to enter a court building to give evidence. There should be pre-trial therapy for all victims of sexual crimes, and a national strategy for victims with mental health issues. Like others, I feel strongly on behalf of children about how their cases are handled. Again, I look to the Minister to see what help he can give us.

It is essential that these foundations, which are not currently in place, are in place for victims. The end goal is justice for the crime and for the victim. The crime has to have the right sentence, but the victim must also feel part of the process and feel that they are not being put upon by the court system. I hate to hear of crimes that could not be prosecuted as the key witness is frightened to come forward. Knowing that a system is in place to support victims is a key component in the prosecution of crimes. Again, I look to the Minister for a response on that.

I will conclude, as I am conscious of the time I agreed with you beforehand, Mrs Main. I again thank the hon. Member for Leeds North West for introducing the debate. I thank Baroness Newlove for her hard work in making a difference to the lives and experiences of victims. It is now in the hands of the Government—and perhaps the Minister in this case—to bring forward the promised changes. I for one will be eagerly awaiting the legislation that is to be introduced.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Commons Chamber

[Lucy Frazer]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that we need to be extremely careful with vulnerable witnesses and witnesses in sex cases and ensure that they get justice. We are bringing in and rolling out measures on the taking of their evidence to ensure that they can do that pre-trial and therefore safely, which will speed up justice. As the hon. Gentleman knows and as the Secretary of State has mentioned, we are hoping to introduce the courts Bill, which will ensure the streamlining of justice and do away with unnecessary hearings. Hopefully, that will speed up access to justice.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Will the Minister further outline what training lawyers receive in the handling of vulnerable witnesses? Does the Department intend to make updates to such training compulsory?

[Lucy Frazer]

In the family court, all judges have training on dealing with vulnerable witnesses. I am sure that the Crown Prosecution Service has training as well.

Death by Dangerous Driving: Sentencing

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 28th February 2018 Westminster Hall

[Eddie Hughes]

I completely concur with my hon. Friend, and I will touch partly on that issue later in my speech.

It was also argued that an increased maximum penalty would better reflect the culpability of dangerous driving behaviours and the disregard that some motorists had for others. A number of respondents also suggested that deliberate driving actions directed at other road users should be charged as murder or manslaughter. Under the current law, the Crown Prosecution Service can, and will, charge a person with manslaughter where the evidence supports that charge. However, as many of those who did not agree with an increase commented, in many driving cases the offending behaviour, which may be highly irresponsible, does not suggest that the vehicle was intentionally used as a weapon to kill or commit grievous bodily harm, so it would not amount to murder or manslaughter.

It was also suggested that causing death by dangerous driving should attract the same sentence as murder or manslaughter because the harm caused—the death of the victim—is the same in all three offences. Increasing the maximum penalty for this offence would enable the courts to impose a life sentence or any lesser sentence, including a determinate sentence of any length. However, increasing the maximum penalty does not guarantee sentence length, as decisions on sentencing remain with the independent courts and are made on a case-by-case basis.

Some also suggested that consecutive sentences should be imposed for each death caused. It is an established principle of law that sentences are served concurrently when they relate to the same course of events, and consecutively when they relate to separate incidents. The court will impose a sentence length that reflects the seriousness of the offending behaviour. Therefore, in circumstances where multiple deaths were the result of a single incident, concurrent sentences will be imposed by the court, but it will take account of the number of victims when setting the overall length of the sentence.

Where are we today, and why are we still debating this subject in Westminster Hall, rather than the Chamber of the House of Commons? Four months after the publication of the consultation findings, the law remains unchanged and, as of today, no Government time has been allocated to implement those changes. That can be of no comfort to the family of John Hickinbottom, whose killer recently received a seven-year sentence for killing John in Walsall while speeding. The court heard that on Friday 9 June 2017, Craig Edwards got behind the wheel, despite pleas from his mother to hand over the keys to his BMW because he was drunk. He travelled just a quarter of a mile before losing control of the car as it sped at almost twice the 30 mph limit along Bentley Road North in Walsall.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on bringing up this issue for consideration by the House. In Northern Ireland, the reduction of the drink-driving limit has reduced deaths and accidents significantly. Importantly, it has also reduced the police’s workload. Does he agree that liaising with the devolved Administrations to ascertain their direction would be helpful, and that reducing the drink-driving limit to 50 mg in England and on the mainland would be a step in the right direction?

[Eddie Hughes]

That is an interesting suggestion. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that when he replies to the debate.

Taking a right-hand turn, Craig Edwards careered on to the pavement, hitting Mr Hickinbottom, a retired builder from Bentley, who died three days later last June. Mr Howard Searle, prosecuting, said that Edwards left the wrecked BMW clutching a bottle of Baileys and, when told by an eyewitness that he had knocked down a pedestrian, replied, “So?”

The 29-year-old defendant from Walsall had 15 previous convictions for 34 offences, including two previous cases of dangerous driving. He was jailed for just seven years after admitting causing death by dangerous driving, failing to stop at the scene of an accident, driving when disqualified, drink-driving and having no insurance. He was also banned from driving for four and a half years on release from prison.

Private Probation Services

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms McDonagh. I apologise to the hon. Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman), who I thought would have been called before me. We will hear her comments later on.

We do not have private probation services in Northern Ireland, but I have been sent some information and I want to add constructively to the debate if I can. I will focus on the individuals and how they can be rehabilitated in prison, as well as the family units. It is important that we focus on the effects on all the people.

I thank the hon. Member for Lewisham West and Penge (Ellie Reeves) for securing this debate and for setting the scene so well, as she always does. The issue does not directly affect Northern Ireland, yet there are lessons to be learned for all the regions of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We have a prison system groaning under the weight of the pressures on it. We have a judicial system that is extremely aware that it can imprison only if it is essential, because there is no room. We have a probation system that is still failing to rehabilitate prisoners, to the detriment of every member of society. I am not here to point the finger at the Department or the Minister. That is not my form; but neither is it my form to ignore issues that have been raised. That is why we are all here today, and Members have put forward pertinent points in their contributions and interventions.

There is an issue with the new system that needs to be addressed. I say that not to score political points or to demonstrate that my ideas are better than those of others; we simply have to do the best we can by offenders. We need to put in place structures that support them. Through that, we can help to prevent reoffending. The issues with reoffending are important.

[Dr Drew]

Would the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the fundamental failings is the lack of continuity between what happens in prison, where there is a need for people to be properly rehabilitated and prepared for release, and what happens afterwards? If my area is anything to go by, there is no overlap; things have to start again as soon as people are released. That means that offenders and ex-offenders feel completely let down.

[Jim Shannon]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I will touch on that issue, because it is important that we have that follow on. What happens next after someone gets out of prison is a clear issue.

It is sometimes easy to fall into a mentality of seeing those in prison as lost causes, but that is not something I believe at all. I believe that all people can make mistakes and that they can put right those mistakes and become contributors to their communities again. The hon. Gentleman and others have referred to that. I know a few good men who society washed their hands of during the troubles in Northern Ireland, yet they were given the opportunity by one tender-hearted person and are now upstanding pillars of the community. People can change, and we have a responsibility to enable that change to take place. It may not work for every individual, but it can work for a great many. I know people who have changed. That is the reality. We need to focus on what can be achieved and how we can achieve it. That has to be our goal and purpose.

I was surprised to learn that one in 10 people in England and Wales are released back to their community without a roof over their head. That simply should not be. They should not be released with a metaphorical boot to the backside, without so much as a by-your-leave. In some cases, that seems to be the way it is, and it is hard to understand why. We must ensure that they not only have somewhere to sleep the day they come home, but that they have something meaningful to achieve the next morning. We have a rehabilitation process for people to go through when they are in prison and when they get out. If they are going home to nothing, it is little wonder that it is so easy to get into the same routine. We must ask how we can do things differently. How can we get these men and women involved in our society in a meaningful and helpful way?

Thus far, the private probation services have been unable to make a difference. I do not want to be unduly critical, but that is what the evidential base indicates. Indeed, some reports indicate that incidences of reoccurrence have intensified. If they are intensifying, as was referred to in an intervention, that may be because a phone call does not achieve what a meeting or appointment can. I suggest to the Minister that it should be a meeting or appointment. That is more constructive and face-to-face, and it can make changes. Printing off a housing form does not achieve the results that attending the housing executive—in England, it is the local council—does. We should not mollycoddle these people, but if we believe in the justice system at all, we believe they have paid their debt to society and deserve help to find their way in a different world. We should encourage them to do so.

I also think of the children and families of offenders. It is essential that follow-up services are provided for the sake of those nearest and dearest to them. A report by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation highlighted that prisoners’ families were vulnerable to financial instability, poverty, debt and potential housing disruption following the imprisonment of a family member. It can be easy to forget that these issues affect not just the individual, but the whole family unit. The report found that families subsidised imprisonment by sending prisoners money, clothing and electronic goods. The responsibility to help those in prison financially often falls to a great extent on families. Disadvantage associated with imprisonment includes high rates of depression—sometimes the health spin-offs are not taken on board—physical illness, housing disruption and, for families of foreign national prisoners, permanent separation after deportation. Again, that is perhaps not an issue for this debate, but it is certainly something that the system should address.

The report also highlighted how prisoners’ partners and mothers prioritised the care needs of children above household income, and there is an impact on children at school, where we know that peer pressure can be difficult. Barriers to employment were magnified for those caring for prisoners’ children. The complications are enormous. When someone comes out of prison to a family under such strain and pressure, it is easy to see how they could go back to their old ways, not understanding that breaking the cycle will help to heal the hurt that their family is going through. That should be taken into consideration and should be a priority for the Government when discussing how to rehabilitate prisoners successfully. That should be our goal. I know the Minister wants that, as we all do in this House.

To conclude, I cannot say how the shortfall has come about, but we must all acknowledge—as Members who have contributed so far have indicated—that there is a definite shortfall that we must address for our communities. I hope the Minister, whom we all respect highly, will tell us how he intends to do that, either in the new private system or by taking back the reins, which is what I think the Members here want. Decisions need to be made, and for the sake of our family units we must ensure that changes are made as a matter of urgency.

Prisoners: Outdoors Endurance Activities

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 31st January 2018 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is always a pleasure to speak in debates such as this. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Dorset (Richard Drax) on bringing this issue to us today. When I saw this debate announced last week, I said to myself, “Here is a scheme that I am interested in.” This year, in just the past few weeks, we have initiated a similar scheme in Northern Ireland through the Department of Justice, which has responsibility for prisoners. I want to use this opportunity to explain how that scheme works and to support the hon. Gentleman’s proposal.

After hearing the hon. Gentleman’s speech, I will say something quickly that is not directly relevant to this debate, although the analogy could be considered so. In 2016, I read about a survey of 2,000 parents of five to 12-year-olds in a nationally representative sample, which found that 74% of the children spent less than 16 minutes playing outside each day. The UN guidelines on the treatment of prisoners require at least one hour of suitable exercise in the open air daily. The headline read, “Prisoners receive more exercise than children”, which is the media doing what they always do—looking for a headline that skews what the issue is. That is for another day’s debate, but it is worth highlighting in this one to flag up that we need a sea change when it comes to the physical activity of our children. We also need it for prisoners and those in prison.

We all know the saying, “If you do the crime, you do the time”, and we understand that. At the same time, however, we can rehabilitate prisoners to grow away from their past and go to their future, where they will have learned, been trained and be associating themselves with new opportunities, not going back to the past they once had. We are all familiar with TV programmes about prisons—this week, the Piers Morgan one comes to mind—and in the USA prisoners might be indoors for 23 out of 24 hours, in a lockdown. The impact of that is great, as it would be here back at home. Another TV programme—again, not one I often watch, but I see the previews—is that one on Channel 4: “Hunted”. Some people go on the run by choice and other people try to catch them. I am very aware of some of the analogies in the world outside.

I turn directly to the debate. We have recently had a pilot of outdoor activity for prisoners at Magilligan Prison in Northern Ireland—perhaps the Minister and the shadow Minister are aware of it. Those prisoners were the first in Northern Ireland to take part in what was called the “parkrun behind bars”. I saw it on the TV news a few weeks ago, on 6 January or thereabouts, and thought, “What’s this about?” The scheme illustrates well what can be done.

The UK-wide parkrun initiative was piloted at Magilligan on 6 January, with 15 inmates and 12 staff out on a five-kilometre run. That was possible there because of the nature of Magilligan. Perhaps it is not for other prisons—I cannot speak for everyone because I do not have that knowledge—but at Magilligan it is possible to have the parkrun within the walls of the prison. In an intervention on the hon. Member for South Dorset, the hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin), who has just left the Chamber, mentioned the notion of people going on a run outside the prison—but in this case they were not: they were on a run physically within the walls of Magilligan.

The pilot was set within the confines of that low-security prison. The scheme, barring any issues, could be a regular way of inmates getting exercise in controlled settings and yet outdoors. I have no doubt that the ability to enjoy the fresh air and perhaps have a bit of freedom readies prisoners’ mindset for what they would rather be doing when they are eventually released and get outside prison. The news reports were that up to 412 prisoners could get involved as two-kilometre walkers, as runners in the five-kilometre race or as volunteer organisers.

People from outside were brought in to participate, which brings a certain level of normality into the project. The parkrun scheme helps with not only the physical needs of inmates but—this is so important—their mental health, which we need to focus on. It is well known that those who exercise regularly are better equipped to deal with high-stress situations; I am sure that every MP is very athletic, because they deal with high-stress situations each and every day.

The organiser of the parkrun, Matt Shields, said:

“We believe prisoners have a lot to gain from parkrun, not only because of the obvious benefits of physical activity and volunteering, but also because of the ties it will foster with their families on the outside.”

A certain mindset is needed, which is the focus of the parkrun strategy and what it is trying to achieve. I do not know this scheme intimately, as others might, but from watching the TV and news excerpts, it seems to me that it is an opportunity to do just what the hon. Member for South Dorset was talking about in Dorset and elsewhere, as well as in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Minister and the shadow Minister will comment on the scheme. I am sure that the Minister will do so.

Matt Shields went on:

“They can share experiences by taking part in parkruns simultaneously, meaning families can share results weekly and compare improvement and feel part of a common activity.”

So while prisoners are practising and training inside, their families and those outside can be doing similar things, which is almost an interactivity between two different locations, bringing people together. Parkruns have other things apart from physical activity—lessening mental stress and keeping focused mind-wise and body-wise for the outside.

As an activity that prisoners and staff can do together, parkruns also break down barriers and build cohesion among the prison warders and prison officers and the inmates. We are all aware of some places where conflict and aggression happen sometimes because of where people are, but this is a way we can do things better. I again quote parkrun organiser Matt Shields:

“For everyone involved we feel this is a win, win”.

That is surely a win, win, and one that could be replicated across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The parkrun at Magilligan is certainly a start, and other parkruns are being looked at, including in other prison settings.

To conclude, I certainly support a scheme that may—not even may, but does—help to provide benefit to the rehabilitation and mental health of prisoners in a low-risk category, such as category D, which many of those prisoners are, as long as there is no chance of putting the public into danger or harm’s way. Let us remember that we have a responsibility for the general public and to ensure that their safety is in place—that is our paramount opportunity and responsibility. However, we also have a duty of care even to those who have done wrong and are repaying their debt to society—I believe that in my heart—and there is a safer and better way for them to do that than with weights in a gym.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I thank my hon. Friend for his remarks. The safety of the public is the Parole Board’s overriding concern in considering whether a prisoner should be released, and that will be the Board’s concern when it comes to reviewing Pitchfork’s detention. I can confirm that the families of Pitchfork’s victims are receiving regular contact under the Probation Service Victim Contact Scheme. Specifically, they have been given the opportunity to submit a victim personal statement to the Parole Board and to make representations regarding licence conditions for any upcoming parole hearing.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

On the special protections in place for the release of sex offenders, does the Minister believe that releasing them to the same area that the attacks took place re-traumatises the victims and stirs up community anxiety?

[Mr Gauke]

Ultimately, these are operational decisions. A number of factors have to be taken into account in deciding what licensed conditions exist, but, clearly, the views and concerns of victims are an important part of that process.