Restoration and Renewal of the Palace of Westminster

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 20th May 2021 Commons Chamber

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

It is a pleasure to speak on this issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank you for calling me to contribute to the debate. The history of this place simply resonates with every step up those ancient stairs in Westminster Hall, with every breath that is taken in this history-saturated Chamber, and with every glance heavenward in Central Lobby where the four nations of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland come together as one in this great United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. We are part of the living history in this place, and the preservation and restoration of it are essential. We are literally preserving the history of our nation.

I came into this House in 2010 when I was elected as the Member for Strangford. Before that, I served as a councillor for 26 years and in the Assembly for 12 years. I love the tradition of this place, and I love the building. I stay in the hotel across the bridge, and every morning when I walk across and look at the Houses of Parliament, I never fail to gasp and say, “Wow, look at that building!” Coming to this place inspires me every day of my life. It also makes me very proud to be British and to have the traditions, the history and the culture that we have in this House. Wow, I am really proud and pleased to have that! It makes me so proud to be British.

I love the pomp and the pageantry. When I have had the chance to be a bit player when Parliament is prorogued, I love to watch how it is done, and to watch the state opening of Parliament and the Queen’s Speech. Wow! Those things are incredible. Nobody anywhere in the whole world can do it like we British can in this House. That is something that I want to put on record. I truly love the democratic process. This mother of Parliaments has sent the democratic process across the whole world to many nations who have all had a chance to embrace the democratic process that we have in this place. I am humbled to be the MP for Strangford and represent the good people of Strangford. When we come here, ever mindful of the history, we are walking in the footsteps of some of the greatest political giants that ever walked, in all the history of this world and our great nation, and now we have the chance to be here and be a small player. A wee boy from Ballywalter—that is what I am—has had the opportunity to be the MP for Strangford. That is a reflection on the place that I come from.

This place is steeped in history. I love the building, not just for the building alone, but for the democratic process that it represents and for the opportunity that it gives everyone to represent their people in this House. On my trips to the United States, pre-covid obviously, I am always thoroughly impressed by their attitude to their nation’s history and the care that they take of it. Their monuments and memorials gleam, they have tours and information at every place of historical significance, and they are proud, as they should be. However, when I look at the attitude to our history in this place, a lot is left to be desired.

Most recently, there has been a desire to remove historical figures and to attempt to paint our historical literature and films with warnings. The past is the past and we are shaped by the lessons learnt from it. If we alter the past to suit a modern narrative, we do our history a disservice. The House is part of the fabric not simply of British history, but of the foundation of democracy. It deserves a top-class restoration to secure and preserve it for generations to come. To walk through and see beams from 1400 is humbling. The duty on us is clear: we must do what is right, we must get this right and we must pay what is right.

On 16 July, the Leader of the House said—I read his comments before the debate—that

“the proposal must be robust and evidence-based…must give value for money and…cut out unnecessary spending; and…the plans need to be up to date.”—[Official Report, 16 July 2020; Vol. 678, c. 1737.]

That is important. Whether the crux of the issue is value for money, what compromises need to be made to save money, what opportunity exists for simpler, quicker and cheaper temporary accommodation, or how new ways of working developed in response to covid-19 affect Parliament’s requirements, they are all things that we must look at.

The review also found that by approaching restoration in a new way, with a phased approach to the delivery of the works in the Palace of Westminster, the time that Members and staff will spend in temporary accommodation could be kept to a minimum. I very much look forward to the Leader of the House’s response and a look at that timescale. A detailed and costed restoration and renewal plan will set out specific timescales, but the period in which works take place in the Palace of Westminster should be thought of in terms of years and not months.

I was slightly dismayed by some of the briefing that I looked at. It was indicated that while theoretically this is a House matter, concerning the running of the Commons and the Lords, given that several billions of pounds are involved, the Government have a stake. There are suggestions that Downing Street is jittery about the cost. A possible final bill of £4 billion is often quoted, but that is a ballpark estimate made several years ago. No one can be sure—it could cost a lot more. The Government must know that the restoration must be done and done soon. They must back it.

I am a proud Ulster Scot, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I know that you are a proud Scot. That history is something that we both share. I loved history, and it was the one subject at school that I did rather well in and enjoyed. As an Ulster Scot—I do not want to put words in your mouth, Madam Deputy Speaker, but you might say the same—I say, every pound is a prisoner. If it is, the thought of spending huge amounts of money is not the kind of decision that I take lightly. However, this is not an option but a necessity.

The money must be spent, and we must do it to as tight a budget as possible, but it must be done. There is much uncertainty about how to go forward. I am reminded of an Ulster Scotsism that is used, which I always remember, along these lines: they used to be indecisive, but now they are not sure. Sometimes, we might show some reluctance to make decisions in this House, but I hope that we do so.

It is also my opinion that the options presented allow us to do the work and yet still participate in this Chamber. I would like that to happen, but I am not sure whether it is possible, and others have reflected on that as well. Having spent a large part of the past year fiddling with Zoom passwords, battling wi-fi connections and frozen screens, and not really understanding exactly what was happening—I am not technologically minded—one thing has been made abundantly clear to me: this place is special and to do it wholly remotely simply does not cut it.

The thrust of the debate and the outworking of the role of an MP is simply not up to the same standard when carried out remotely. We must be able to retain a base in this place. I know the history of former decants and it is clear that they were not the best route.

I also saw in the background notes a quote stating:

“The work to save our Parliament buildings for the nation is essential and urgent, and the Palace of Westminster continues to be at a high risk of catastrophic damage, be that a major fire, flood or falling masonry”.

I am reminded of the Northern Ireland Assembly and Parliament buildings. On 2 January 1995—just before I entered the Forum for Political Dialogue and ultimately into the Assembly—there was a fire in the Parliament buildings. It was over the Christmas and new year holiday period, so no one was aware of it and the fire had been burning for a period of time in the main Chamber.

The Parliament buildings of the Northern Ireland Assembly at Stormont replicate this House; they are not as large, but, as people can see on television, they are based on this place. The fire at Stormont was started by two wires rubbing together. After a number of years, that friction caused a fire. Someone living down in Dundonald, at the edge of Stormont, saw the smoke coming up the chimney. There was lots of talk that it was a terrorist attack, but it was not—it was just the age of the electrics. That is a reminder to me that perhaps we need a high level of maintenance in this House.

I have read reports that

“the Restoration and Renewal Programme team found that moving MPs into a temporary chamber in Richmond House on Whitehall and peers to the nearby QEII conference centre remains ‘the most secure, cost-effective and practical solution’ to keep parliament in operation while works take place.”

The cost of this is extremely prohibitive and leads me to the idea of hybrid systems. At least with a hybrid system, there could be some people in this place and others able to work effectively in other places; the background notes also referred to the Northern Estate programme. As the Leader of the House said, we have to focus on value for money. I am very much on that page. I am not the greatest advocate of hybrid proceedings —my ability would indicate that—but I would rather have hybrid proceedings for a little bit while we could not use this Chamber than spend £1.5 billion.

The background notes state that an hon. Member

“asked the House of Commons Commission if it had considered ways in which hybrid or virtual proceedings could reduce the cost of the restoration and renewal programme and minimise the need for decant during the programme. Sir Charles Walker, who answers questions on behalf of the Commission said that no formal assessment had been made and that it would be for the House to determine whether to adopt different ways of working.”

I believe that we can have the best of both worlds. The creation of a replica Chamber is not a good use of funding if there is a way to keep this place open while continuing the works.

The comments of the shadow Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire), regarding wheelchair and visually disabled access are welcomed by everyone here. She also referred to those with autism and challenging educational issues. I entirely support her proposals in that regard. I have often had the opportunity—as have other right hon. and hon. Members—to engage with schools from our constituencies in the education centre, which the former Speaker was instrumental in bringing about, and which was really good news.

I understand that the safety and security of staff is paramount, and changes will have to be made to the placement of staff in our offices, yet it seems to me that there is a way forward: we must look to a hybrid model as the best of both worlds.

At the end of the day, this is undoubtedly and unfortunately a costly project—costly but worthwhile. We have an opportunity to take lessons learned from Parliament by Zoom, along with sensible financial decisions, to ensure that this Parliament can continue to operate effectively while we restore and protect this living and breathing seat of democracy for hundreds of years to come. We do this not just for us at this time, but for everyone who comes after—everyone who will walk where political giants have walked before.

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the detail that you gave: it was good that you were able to inform us that all parts of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will have a part in the work. I welcome that and am encouraged by that. Perhaps the Leader of the House could provide some assurance that apprentices from Northern Ireland will have an opportunity to be part of that work.

I realise that I have gone on a wee bit long, so I shall finish with this. There are reports that say that a delay in starting work would add to the cost, because this 150-year-old building is falling apart faster than it can be fixed, with the cost of maintenance having doubled in just three years to £127 million a year in 2018-19, so it is clear that the decision must be made shortly. I urge the House to consider a hybrid model as the right decision, if it is in order and Members agree. We need to put up with the inconvenience, knowing that we are preserving this wonderful place—this incredible seat of democracy, the envy of all the world—and doing so as cost-effectively as we can while ensuring that we can all work well and still do the job we are elected to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Shaun Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Con)]

After that fantastic contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Dehenna Davison), I feel this is going to be a bit of a disappointment, but let us see how it goes.

This has truly been slightly seat-of-the-pants stuff today, believe it or not. I did not really know what to expect when I came into this debate. As we saw the opening salvos from the Leader of the House of Commons and the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire), I thought we were going to see the old arguments of leave or remain, but just that we had stepped through the looking glass a little bit. As the debate has progressed, however, I think some really important points have been made. I am conscious that I will probably not be able to address all of them to the extent that I would wish to, but I would like to touch first on the idea of the opportunities that come out of this.

The right hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami), the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) and other hon. Members are absolutely right: there is an opportunity with these works, either way, to ensure we see the best this country has to offer—whether that means ensuring we have builders from Wednesbury, bricklayers from Spennymoor, electricians from Haslington, surveyors from Clitheroe or artists from Clifton—and to ensure that as we do this work we can showcase the best this country has to offer. We all know that it truly does have the best to offer. We need to ensure, as we come out of the pandemic and out of the economic hard times, that we use the restoration of this Palace as a symbol to everyone else that we are back and that we do support those industries, we do support our economy and we do support our local artisans. It is important that we do that at the heart of our democracy.

Picking up on a point made by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Kirsty Blackman), this is an important debate. Do not get me wrong. There are other things I wish to talk about as well, of course. I want to have debates about how we protect survivors of domestic violence. I want to have debates about ensuring that the children in areas such as Princes End in my constituency, which has some of the highest rates of child poverty, get the resources and the opportunities they deserve. But at the moment, the way we do that is by ensuring that the basis of our democracy—the area we have those debates in—functions; that it can operate, that we can have those debates and done in the right way. Because if this place slows down and is not operational, we cannot do that and we cannot change people’s lives. That is why every single one of us is here: to change people’s lives for the better. That is why we are here, irrespective of party and irrespective of whether we are a socialist, Conservative, Unionist or nationalist, and to be able to do that, we need a place to do it from.

I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland that we must ensure we are back here after any sort of decamp, because that is what the public expect. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North made an interesting point when she said that her constituents saw this as a stuffy place. For the schoolchildren from areas such as Tipton in my constituency who came down pre-pandemic, this place was awe-inspiring. I remember welcoming a school down from Tipton just before the pandemic and their awe at this place. Many of them felt that this place was inaccessible to them, and I was so proud, as their Member of Parliament, to show them round and say to them, “No, you can come here, and do you know what? One day you could be sat on these Benches, and you should be able to aspire to be here.”

[Jim Shannon]

The hon. Gentleman is making a fantastic point. I have had the opportunity, through the Parliamentary Education Centre, to have schoolchildren from the different strands of education—state schools, Catholic-controlled maintained schools and integrated schools—come to this place, and they all look forward to it, because it is an opportunity for them to see the mother of Parliaments at work and to ask their Member of Parliament questions. He is right: it is also an opportunity for us to give encouragement to those young people, who one day could be Members of Parliament.

[Shaun Bailey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman—my hon. Friend, if I may say so—for that intervention. He is absolutely right. It has been disappointing that, because of the pandemic, I have not had the opportunity to show more schools round, but I hope to be able to do so in the future with our fantastic Education Centre, which I pay tribute to for the work it does, as I am sure all Members do.

I touched previously on the best of British, and we have to ensure that the procurement is open and transparent. That is key, and it is what the public expect, particularly given the fact that we have gone through some interesting times over the last few months. We need to ensure that there is transparency. I will not regurgitate all the points that my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland made about transparency on the costings, because she articulated them much better than I would, but we need to be up front with people about the cost of this. When we talk about billions of pounds, what does that actually mean? We bandy these words around in the Chamber quite a lot, but sometimes that can feel quite disconnected, as I know from the conversations I often have with my constituents, particularly a few weeks ago on the doorsteps.

For example, the £29 million spent on the Elizabeth Tower project could pay for us to run nearly 1,000 police stations in my constituency. I am actually losing all my constituency’s police stations, but that is a different matter altogether that we are not going to talk about right now. The point is that we have to make this relative to the people we represent, because I think we all agree that ultimately this is their Parliament. We are the custodians of it, but this is their Parliament, and we have to ensure that we do the work on their building—on the people’s building—in the way that they would expect us to do it, which is transparent and cost-effective and respects the situation that we now find ourselves in.

As many Members have said, when people are losing their jobs and their livelihoods, it is difficult to explain why we are spending millions of pounds on a building. I would find it difficult to go into some of my most deprived communities that have lost so much and say to them, “We’ve just spent millions of pounds on knocking down a 35-year-old building.” I would struggle to look them in the eye and justify that.

I am conscious of the need to allow colleagues to make their contributions, so I will conclude. We have to get this right. As many Members have said, it is about the people who are here; they are at the heart of this. I echo the comments made about accessibility, which is really important. The hon. Member for Bristol West articulated that very well, and I absolutely agree with her. We have to ensure that, as part of the works, this place is accessible to everyone and allows everyone, irrespective of additional need, to access it.

Equally, we must ensure that the people we engage to do the work pay the living wage and use apprentices and that this work is done to advocate social mobility, so that people from all backgrounds and all strands of life can be part of the work and benefit from it.

This is vital work. It will set the stage for how this place is viewed in the decades to come. It is vital that we get this right and get this done, but it must be done in the right way that respects our communities.

Amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 28th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees- Mogg)]

I beg to move,

That this House endorses the report of the House of Commons Commission entitled Amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme, HC 1384, laid on Thursday 22 April; and approves the revised bullying and harassment policy and outline procedure, and sexual misconduct policy and outline procedure, set out in Annexes 1 to 4 of that report.

Before I begin, as I may not have the opportunity tomorrow, may I start by thanking Ray Mortimer for his service to the House? He is leaving after 18 years of serving us, and he has always in my time in the House—and I am a mere stripling of only 10 and a bit years’ service—been one of the friendliest, most approachable and helpful members of the first-class Doorkeepers team. He was welcoming to me from the day that I arrived, and he has always been smiling and positive. He knows better, dare I say, what the business of House is going to be, if one needs advice, sometimes than one’s own Whips know and sometimes even than the Leader of the House himself knows, and this is characteristic of the Doorkeepers. I know that my private office in particular has always appreciated Ray’s good humour, support and friendliness, too. I am sure that Members from across the House will want to thank Ray for his service. I also thank the shadow Leader of the House, who warned me that this was happening, and that is how I knew.

Turning to the motion in my name, the central aim of the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme is to help improve the working culture of Parliament. The Government continue to be determined to play our part, giving the House an opportunity to have its say on the proposed reforms and their relative merits in achieving the change we are all striving for. This motion endorses the report agreed by the House of Commons Commission on amendments to the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme.

At the time that the ICGS was created, it was important that the scheme was established as rapidly as possible. Built in to the set-up process were two reviews—one after six months and a second after 18 months—both to provide an opportunity for the scheme to be assessed and improvements identified. Inevitably, when looked at over time, there were aspects that required improvement.

I am grateful to Alison Stanley for the dedication and professionalism she has showed in her work reviewing the Independent Complaints and Grievance Scheme, and in particular for her most recent extensive review, published on 22 February. It has been useful to have an independent and expert assessment of the ICGS, providing Parliament with a carefully considered set of recommendations that will help us to hone the scheme further and make Parliament a better place to work.

As the Leader of the House of Commons and co-sponsor of the review, I have taken a keen interest in the report. I am confident that the proposed changes will improve the policies and procedures of the ICGS, while simplifying and streamlining the management of cases. We have already made progress with the implementation of the proposals for textual changes to the policies and procedures concerning complaints of bullying and harassment or sexual misconduct in response to Alison Stanley’s report. These changes, endorsed by the Commission on 22 March, include the retention of the factual accuracy check as the key means of review, the imposition of a time limit for bullying and harassment cases, and textual changes to ICGS policies and procedures.

The motion today will amend the ICGS in several important ways. The language of the ICGS will be amended to make it less pre-judgmental—for example, by removing phrases such as “a case to answer”. The terminology will be updated to reflect language actually used by the ICGS helpline and team. The wording of the bullying and harassment policy will also be amended, to align more closely with that in the Equality Act 2010. The procedure will be altered to enable the independent investigator to consider at the initial assessment stage whether the complaint has already been fully and fairly considered in another context. That is an important development that will mean that double jeopardy is avoided.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Democratic Unionist party supports what the Government have introduced, and I want to put that on the record. Whenever we get the conclusions of what the Leader of the House is saying, it will be important for them to be given—I am sure that this is going to be done—to the Northern Ireland Assembly first of all, and to the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh Assembly so that they can endorse them in their own regional Administrations.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for making that extremely sensible point. I would not want to trespass on the exclusive cognisance in their own fields of the various other Parliaments, but if it were thought useful I could certainly ensure that copies of what we propose were sent on an information basis. I am looking at both the SNP and the DUP in the hope that they would not think that that was an impertinence and an attempt to interfere. If those proposals were of use, however, I think that that would be a sensible thing to do.

The ICGS will be streamlined with the removal of the right to seek a review of the draft formal assessment, which is a current means for a complainant to request review when an investigation concludes that the case is not upheld. The factual accuracy check will now be the single point at which both parties, complainant and responder, can correct inaccuracies in the report. The system that we have had until now, which combines a factual accuracy check and a review, has resulted in substantial delay in some cases. We have debated the need for investigations to come to a conclusion more speedily on a number of occasions, and this straightforward measure will help to achieve that.

Another important recommendation concerns the introduction of a time limit for non-recent cases. That will apply only to bullying and harassment cases. The new timeframe will be brought in a year from now, applying to new complaints arising from 28 April 2022. From that date onwards, people can report an incident of bullying or harassment up to one full year after it occurs. That compares with the three-month deadline for claims to an employment tribunal, so the House is once again setting a standard higher than that expected in external workforces. Given the particular nature of sexual harassment cases and the understandable reality that people often need longer to feel able to bring forward such a case, there will be no time limit for those cases.

In addition to the changes recommended by the review, further technical changes are proposed to the policies and procedures, including making it clear that although bullying, harassment and sexual misconduct are defined in the same way across the parliamentary community, the Commissioners for Standards in both Houses are responsible for overseeing investigations, so there are some procedural differences. Other recommendations include aligning the language of the two policies and procedures more closely; amending the procedure documents to be clear that they provide an outline only of the procedure; making it clear that complaints can be made of any former member of the parliamentary community; including in the bullying and harassment policy that victimisation is an aggravating factor, as included in the sexual misconduct policy; and finally, including information on data protection.

I would like to provide some reassurance about whether the changes set out in the motion would have retrospective effect. For the majority of changes to the text of the policies and procedures, the question of retrospection does not arise. Some of the changes are purely linguistic—for example, the change in terminology from “case manager” to “independent investigator”, to ensure that the documents reflect the terminology used by those involved in the process, or the change from “reporter” to “complainant” in sexual misconduct complaints. In those cases, it would not be meaningful to talk about retrospection.

Other changes have been made to reflect existing practice. For example, the factual accuracy check, which was introduced as a procedural step some time ago as a matter of fairness to both parties, is now expressly referred to in the documents. Other changes have been made to clarify the language and to amend defects in the drafting to ensure that the documents clearly reflect the policy intention at the time they were made. It will be for the decision maker to decide how to apply the policy in cases already under way, considering both the language at the time and the intention. I will repeat that for the benefit of the House, because it is a fundamental point: it will be for the decision maker to decide how to apply the policy in cases already under way, considering both the language of the policy at the time and the intention. For Members or former Members, the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards makes the initial decision, which can then be appealed to the independent expert panel in accordance with the IEP’s own procedures. For former staff, the house service is the decision maker, and for Members’ staff, the decision maker will be the Member.

There are also some minor changes where it is fair and reasonable to apply the changes—

Business of the House

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 15th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I have been accused of many things over the past 29 years as a Member of Parliament, but not doing my bit to help the pub has not been one of them. I look forward to joining the right hon. Lady on visits to whatever hostelries she might wish to go to.

I thank the Leader of the House for making his statement and responding to 30 questions in over one hour.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Go on. I want to hear the words, “point of order”.

Business of the House

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 14th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend is battling for his constituents and is absolutely right to do so. Improving air quality is one of the most tangible and beneficial things we can achieve with a sensible environmental policy. Newcastle-under-Lyme and Stoke-on-Trent have jointly identified a package of measures, including bus gates and bus retrofit, to bring nitrogen dioxide exceedance in their local authority areas within legal limits. It has to be said that restrictions on motorists are always deeply tiresome. Stoke-on-Trent requested, and has been granted, a short period—to 15 February—to model alternatives to the proposed bus gate on Victoria Road. A clean air zone is not being imposed by the Government.

As regards the odour from the landfill, I understand that the Government are aware of this. I know from my own constituency that the Environment Agency has experts trained to sniff out odours from landfill sites to see if they are within permissible limits and whether there is a problem.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

A report published by Christian Solidarity Worldwide on Tuesday 12 January claims that, in 2020, Cuban authorities continued to routinely and systematically violate the right to freedom of religion or belief. I know that the Leader of the House and I have a similar opinion on this. Documented violations include arbitrary detention, threats, harassment, surveillance of religious leaders, efforts by the Government to block overseas humanitarian aid, defamation of religious leaders online and the targeting of church properties. Will the Leader of the House agree to a statement or debate on this matter?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am always grateful to the hon. Gentleman for campaigning for religious freedom around the world. It is clear that Christians in Cuba face appalling discrimination from the country’s communist totalitarian regime. Communists have always been anti-Christianity and anti-religion. The UK is committed to defending freedom of religion or belief for all and to promoting respect between different religious and non-religious communities. Promoting the right to freedom of religion or belief is one of the UK’s long-standing human rights policy priorities.

The Government regularly speak to the Cuban Government, in both London and Havana, about a range of human rights issues, and also address these issues through multilateral human rights forums, including the UN periodic review. While we welcome the new protections that underpin freedom of religion or belief in the 2019 constitution, we call on the Cuban authorities to confer in practice those rights that the constitution enshrines. This is a reminder to those who like the idea of a written constitution that what is written is not always what is done.

Sittings in Westminster Hall (Suspension) (No. 2)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 13th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman knows that is not the matter of today’s debate.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Leader of the House for what he is saying. As one who, with others, attends Westminster Hall on a regular basis, we find that it is important to have that scrutiny of the Ministers there. As far as I am aware, the Leader of the House does not seem to have put a timescale on its return. Does he not feel, as some in the House do, that it is better to have a timescale—until the February recess, for instance—so that we can work towards that? The hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) comes from Scotland; my journey over here takes about four hours—

Business of the House

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Wednesday 30th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I think the answer is “da-da-da-dah, da-da-da-dah”, which I seem to remember is Morse code for “V for victory”, which is very much the spirit that we are in today.

I am very grateful to the right hon. Lady for her support on today’s business. It is the sensible way—the right way—to have conducted our business. It is one of the glories of our constitution that this Parliament—this nation—can be flexible when necessary. It has to be said that the debate on this subject has gone on for many years: there is hardly a new thing that can be said upon it. Therefore, it was quite right, it was suitable and it was appropriate that we met our international obligations in the way that we did.

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her tribute to Brian Binley, who was a much loved Member of this House on all sides. He showed great personal kindness to new Members, including to me when I first got into the House. He was always available with a wise and friendly word. He never appeared grand or pompous in his approach to Parliament but was a committed and true parliamentarian. He will be sadly missed.

The right hon. Lady asked whether business might change subject to the vote later this evening. She is, as always, accurate in her understanding of parliamentary procedure. There is a vote on the Adjournment until 11 January. If that does not pass, we will be back tomorrow morning at 9.30, with Mr Speaker in the Chair, as if it were any ordinary Thursday, but we will have to see how the vote goes.

The right hon. Lady’s main point about thanking the staff is of fundamental importance. As she rightly says, they were up until 4 o’clock in the morning to ensure the papers were ready for today, but that is not the end of it. Many staff will be working late into tonight, once Royal Assent has been given, to ensure that the statutory instruments are available, and that is why I think the proposed recess extension is absolutely suitable.

MPs will be working in their constituencies, or should be working in their constituencies, and they should be attending to their constituents’ interests and seeking redress of grievances outside the Chamber, but we owe it to the officials, the professionals, the staff of this House, who have worked unceasingly over Christmas to ensure the business was ready for 31 December, that they should be allowed to have a week off to recover.

It is not only just this last week, but this House sat an exceptionally long time in 2020, for 40 weeks, which is the highest since 2010. I am not saying it has not been higher over a longer period, but we have only checked back to 2010. We did not have the conference recess, so the staff of this House have really come up trumps for us and deserve great tribute. Hansard cannot see your elegant nod, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I hope the Hansard reporter from her eyrie will note in her report that you are nodding in agreement, because we owe them a great debt and the least we can do is allow them to have a few days off. But of course they and we stand ready to come back if circumstances require it. That has always been the case. Recall is an accepted part of our constitution, and it would not be impossible to speculate on the circumstances that might lead to a recall in this business session.

As regards Members coming, Members have an absolute right to come to this House and have done so since 1340—not to this specific House, because it had not been built then—to attend Parliament, and that is a right we should defend. It is important that Parliament works.

As the right hon. Lady kindly said, the proxy system is working and also has the advantage of a fallback system so that if the card readers do not work, as we found when they did not work on one occasion, the vote can be taken immediately. That is of great importance, because it did fail in the House of Lords and they had no standby procedure. If it were to have failed today, imagine the inconvenience it would have caused, so having a robust, effective system is absolutely what we want. We really do not want to model ourselves on the House of Lords on this occasion, worthy and noble though their lordships are.

The right hon. Lady is right to thank the NHS staff, who have worked so hard and are doing such terrific work to ensure that people are vaccinated, and the reports I am hearing anecdotally from my friends who are 80 and older are very encouraging. On her request for a statement from the vaccine Minister, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care himself spoke about the vaccine earlier, and it is going well. The vaccine is being rolled out and is fundamental to the hope we have for next year.

The right hon. Lady rightly raises the case of Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe every week. I have always been with the former Foreign Secretary, Palmerston, who, at the end of the Don Pacifico debate—one where people were saying he was overreacting in defence of a British subject—said:

“the Roman, in days of old, held himself free from indignity, when he could say Civis Romanus sum; so also a British subject, in whatever land he may be, shall feel confident that the watchful eye and the strong arm of England, will protect him against injustice and wrong.”—[Official Report, 25 June 1850; Vol. 112, c. 444.]

The Government always wish and always seek to defend British subjects from injustice and wrong. The Prime Minister has raised the case of Nazanin directly with President Rouhani, and the Foreign Secretary did so with his counterpart two weeks ago, on 13 December.

I pass on to the Foreign Secretary the questions that have been raised in this House every time they are raised, and the right hon. Lady is right to raise them because it is fundamental that a state must defend its subjects when they are treated unjustly in other countries. That is what the Foreign Office tries to do wherever it can.

Finally, on new year’s resolutions and anniversaries, I cannot resist reminding everybody that yesterday was the 850th anniversary of the murder of Saint Thomas à Becket, a great defender of religious liberty.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

indicated assent.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am glad to see the hon. Gentleman nodding in approval of the work of Thomas à Becket, who we remember and ask to pray for us. Respect for Parliament is always uppermost in the mind of Her Majesty’s Government. That is why we are having so many statements and so many debates, which is exactly what we should have.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend and I are completely at one on this. It is so important that we get this House back to normal. Scrutiny is more effective when it is spontaneous and it is more spontaneous when it is not dialled in. Debates are better when there is the free flow of interventions that make it lively and exciting. It keeps people on their mettle, rather than reading out speeches they wrote a week ago. That is not a proper debate. That is not holding people to account. That is not developing thought in the way that a debate does. The sooner we are back to normal the better, but we are living within the constraints of the pandemic. However, with the vaccination programme being rolled out and the temporary orders remaining until the end of March, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Chair of the Backbench Business Committee and the Leader of the House have just confirmed that my debate on 7 January will carry over to 14 January, but as you know, Madam Deputy Speaker, I always come prepared with a substitute question and I have one here which I will be able to use right now. Elim Missions, located in my constituency in Newtonards, does excellent work in Swaziland on health, education, farming and job creation. Will the Leader of the House consider a debate on support available for countries such as Swaziland in Africa, whose hospitals are overwhelmed and understaffed with little access to necessary treatments and medication, and are in urgent need of support?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is right to praise the operation in his constituency that supports people in Swaziland. It sounds a really noble and worthy effort. As regards a debate, I sometimes feel, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the hon. Gentleman knows more about how to get debates in this place than I do. I feel that telling him how to get a debate is teaching my grandmother to suck eggs.

Business of the House

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 17th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

My hon. Friend raises a really serious point. It is vital to their educational progress, wellbeing and wider development that children and young people attend school. It is appalling to hear about the attendance record at schools in his constituency—37% is an atrociously low figure. We must do all we can to reverse this, so that children in West Bromwich can take advantage of the opportunities available to them. Approximately 99% of schools have been open each week since the start of the term, and it is important that schools continue to remain open, despite the restrictions brought about by the pandemic. I shall pass on my hon. Friend’s concerns to the Secretary of State for Education, but it is primarily a local authority matter.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The Leader of the House, you, Mr Speaker, and other right hon. and hon. Members know that Christmas is very much a family time, but I wish to highlight a place where that will not happen. Will the Leader of the House ask the Foreign Secretary to update the House at the earliest opportunity about the urgent situation in Nigeria, in particular the kidnapping on 12 December of more than 300 schoolboys in the north-west state of Katsina and what specifically Her Majesty’s Government are doing to support efforts to secure their safe release? I would be grateful if we could get them home for Christmas, but we had better get them home some time in the new year.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

May I begin by wishing the hon. Gentleman a very happy Christmas? I have a feeling that he is the only Member of this House who is disappointed that I have announced the recess dates, and would prefer that we were sitting on Christmas Day itself, which would be the best way he could celebrate. [Interruption.] Well of course one goes to church first and then comes into the House. I do wish him and all his family a very happy Christmas.

The hon. Gentleman has raised a deeply concerning subject—the reports of armed men attacking a secondary school in Katsina in north-west Nigeria and abducting over 300 children. Violence against children studying in school is a despicable act. To go back to an earlier question, one does wonder whether UNICEF might think a bit more about this than faffing around in England. The Minister for Africa tweeted on 14 December expressing our concern, and we are monitoring the situation closely. The UK is providing—this is important—a comprehensive package of support to Nigeria to help tackle insecurity challenges, including serious and organised crime and terrorism, but there is clearly a great deal more to do. Over Christmas, both the hon. Gentleman and I will remember those children in our prayers.

Business of the House

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 3rd December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

It is worth bearing in mind that were it not for Somerset, there would be no United Kingdom. The whole history of our nation is born out of our great county, because if Alfred had not defeated the Danes, we would never have seen the evolution of our country as it has happened. Alfred the Great was the founder of the Royal Navy, our pride and our security—

“an ornament and a safeguard”,

one might say, although that is actually the motto of the Scottish Crown. It is so important that we remember our history in our bureaucratic structures, because they bring a reality to them that underpins them and gives them support from the people who are governed. I am very sympathetic to what my hon. Friend says about the county being reunited after the vandalism of the late Sir Edward Heath.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

According to news reports, between Friday 6 November and Sunday 8 November, a Daesh-affiliated militant group attacked several villages in Mozambique and decapitated more than 50 people, including women and children. This armed group, which turned a local football pitch into the site of a brutal mass execution, has wreaked havoc in northern Mozambique since late 2017, killing hundreds, displacing communities and capturing towns. Will the Leader of the House agree to a statement or a debate on this pressing issue?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Her Majesty’s Government are deeply concerned by the deteriorating security situation in northern Mozambique and the increasing attacks by groups with links to Islamic extremism. On 10 November, the Foreign Secretary and the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge), publicly condemned the recent attacks. The Government are working with the Government of Mozambique to address the root drivers of this conflict and instability in northern Mozambique, including through engagement with the Government of Mozambique’s regional development authority in Cabo Delgado and by providing targeted technical assistance under the framework of a defence memorandum of understanding.

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his tireless campaigning on this issue. As with the issue raised earlier about the persecution of Christians in Nigeria, it is a matter that the Government take very seriously, and I encourage him and other Members to keep on raising it on the Floor of the House.

Participation in Debates

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Monday 16th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I am very concerned and sorry to hear that so many members of the Liaison Committee are extremely clinically vulnerable. That is certainly troubling, but I hope that the steps that are being proposed and will be taken will be helpful to them.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I applaud the Leader of the House and also you, Mr Speaker, for the guidance and leadership that have been given. Does the Leader of the House not agree that engagement in this place is what we are elected to do, and that the proper process should be followed? Does he agree that the proxy voting scheme, for example, is an essential component of moving forward in a different way in these peculiar times? Can he envisage a time-limited way of allowing greater engagement during these times?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The hon. Gentleman is an absolute model of parliamentary engagement and of the ability to stand up for constituents and ensure that they are represented. He does it with aplomb and vigour. Yes, we need to ensure that there is as much engagement as possible, and the point I am trying to get across is that having a functioning, active democratic Chamber is not simply nice to have, like some sort of additional bauble on the British constitution; it is fundamental to how we are governed. It is fundamental to how the extraordinary laws that have been introduced are scrutinised, and that requires almost all of us to be here, but we can make exceptions for those who are extremely clinically vulnerable.

Business of the House

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Thursday 5th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

Mr Speaker, is it indiscreet of me to say that it was your lobbying that got the debate extended to three hours? If it is indiscreet, it is too late now, but thank you very much. It is always important that proper time is provided, but one of the great difficulties of organising Government business is that there are so many pressures for time, including for my hon. Friend’s important private Member’s Bill, which I think is popular across the House.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Early on the morning of 30 October 2020, Cuban authorities in the city of Santiago de Cuba demolished an Assemblies of God church. The pastor of the church, Pastor Palomo Cabrera, was taken away by Government authorities, and it was reported that he was put under pressure to sign a document saying that the church demolition was legal. According to Christian Solidarity Worldwide, that church has been in the crosshairs of the Cuban Government since 2015. Its arbitrary destruction is a serious violation of freedom of religion or belief. Will the Leader of the House make a statement or agree to a debate on this matter?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

The UK remains deeply concerned about the severity and scale of violations and abuses of freedom of religion or belief in many parts of the world. We are committed to defending these freedoms for all and promoting respect between different religious and non-religious communities. Once again, I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman. He is one of the House’s most diligent campaigners for the rights of Christians suffering persecution around the world. The Government regularly communicate with the Cuban Government about a range of human rights issues, in both London and Havana, and also address these issues through multilateral human rights forums, including the UN universal periodic review. While we welcome the new protections that underpin freedom of religion or belief in the 2019 constitution, we call on the Cuban authorities to confer in practice those rights that the constitution enshrines. As regards a debate, I think an Adjournment debate or Backbench Business debate would be suitable. We had a debate in Government time earlier in the year.