Rights of Children (Police Custody)

Jim Shannon Excerpts

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Westminster Hall

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

First, I congratulate the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Janet Daby) on raising the issue. I can well recall when she secured the debate in the main Chamber, which I attended to support her and ask questions. I had a discussion with her before and after the debate. The issue is very real for her, and although it may not be for us in Northern Ireland, I understand the issues and her concerns. I wanted to come along, as I do to many debates, to support those who bring forward matters that are important for their constituents and for us across the whole United Kingdom.

It is a pleasure to see the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Halifax (Holly Lynch), in her place, and the Minister. I am convinced that the Minister will be keen to respond to the questions that the hon. Member for Lewisham East has asked and that others will ask. We in this House have a responsibility to ensure that while children are in custody, they are safeguarded and their welfare is promoted. I can well recall the case—I could not believe that it took place—in which a young person was arrested and detained with absolutely no action taken to protect, safeguard or look after them. That is the issue for me, as it is for the hon. Lady, and it is why I am here.

This is a huge issue. There are fluctuations in the number of children being arrested, as well as an increase in the number of children reoffending and being re-arrested. I understand that there has to be law and order—there has to be a system—but protection for young people needs to be paramount in the legal system. That is why many of us were flabbergasted when we read that that incident had taken place. While there is absolutely no excuse for crime, we must ensure that the process is done in the right way, to safeguard and yet discourage.

The hon. Lady has provided some useful and insightful material in relation to child arrests, for which I thank her, and she has made some incredibly important points. It was of particular interest and concern to me that from the age of 10 children who are arrested are expected to choose whether or not to have legal advice. I would have thought it would be normal to give them legal advice there and then. I cannot understand why they would be asked, “Do you want legal advice or don’t you?” They do, and the law of the land should protect them—it should reach out to them and ensure that they know their rights.

I am not aware of any 10-year-old who understands the meaning of the term legal advice. I am a grandfather, and my oldest grandchildren are aged 12 and eight. Neither of them would be aware of their rights, and I presume that they are an example of the rest of society when it comes to knowing what is right and what is wrong, so an appropriate adult must be present at that stage. Children should have appropriate advice at all stages, and they must have an appropriate adult present to give them the advice they need. If the family are not available—sometimes that happens, for whatever reason; someone may be working, or they may not be accessible or available—it is important that the state steps in to provide that assistance.

In addition, children are often detained in adult cells, with no immediate support to help them understand what they have done. The hon. Member for Lewisham East referred to that fact while setting the scene, which she did extremely well. To help those children to realise that wrongdoing has taken place, talking is one of the first things that should happen, and young people must know their rights. Sometimes, they may be shy; they may be introverted and not know how to react; or they may be extremely scared. I suspect that for many, it is the latter, so those are things that we need to sort out.

As the Minister knows, I always give a Northern Ireland perspective in these debates. It is just to add a flavour to the debate, not necessarily to ask her to take any responsibility, because she has no responsibility for Northern Ireland. A report by the Northern Ireland Audit Office has revealed that it costs £324,000 per year to keep a young person in custody in Northern Ireland. We have one youth detention centre, Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre in Bangor, County Down, just north of my constituency. Each year, an average of 100 youths between the ages of 10 and 17 serve convictions there, and the figure for those placed in custody is much higher. Although we must ensure that children in police custody are dealt with through the correct process, they are initially arrested for a reason. That reason has to be proven, of course, and how it is done has to be monitored, but it is an extremely big deal when a youth crime is committed, and lessons have to be learned.

I spoke in a previous Westminster Hall debate on sentencing for repeat offenders, where Department of Justice figures revealed that the reoffending rate across the United Kingdom is 38.5%. It is quite a large figure—reoffending seems to happen to more than one third of those who are detained originally. Maybe the Minister could give us some help and indicate what has been done to reduce those reoffending rates, because the figures are quite alarming and concern us all. There must be a firm reminder that youth custody is not a respite but an essential part of the judicial process for lessons to be learned. Although I agree that children should have additional safeguarding, it is not a soft measure that should be taken for granted.

Young girls should have access to female support—it should be available each time—and not have to wait eight or even 10 hours, as I think the hon. Member for Lewisham East said, for someone to come. Oh my goodness, it is incredible that the wait time should be so long. Let us honestly address the fact that for ladies and girls, this is also about hygiene and personal issues, and they are incredibly important to a vulnerable young person who needs help. All young people should have access to a parent or guardian, and not be subject to intimidation or violent treatment.

However, it is so important that those young people still understand that their choices have led them to a place that they simply never want to be. That goes back to reoffending and the question that I have asked the Minister. What has been done to ensure that young people are treated in the right way, with compassion, understanding and persuasion, so that they are not unduly afraid of the system but they understand it better and, hopefully, never have to reoffend again?

While I respect the fact that Northern Ireland falls under our own Department of Justice, the concept of how we deal with youth offenders should be the same. I want safeguarding for children, as the hon. Member for Lewisham East does, but I also want the correct education, so that crimes are not committed to begin with. We must look deeper at the issues and why these things happen. We also cannot ignore society and where they live. Is it a poor community? Is there poverty in the family? Is there parental control? Are gangs taking advantage of young people? Those are all things in the bigger picture that must be addressed.

I look to the Justice Minister back home, in many cases, but I also ask the Minister here what commitments have been made to ensure that young people have rights and are safe in custody, whether here or back home. Has the Minister had any discussions with the Justice Minister at the Northern Ireland Assembly? It is always good to exchange ideas and see what is working. We should be looking at what is working around the United Kingdom, and at what is perhaps working better in Northern Ireland or, indeed, in Scotland or Wales.

I agree that children should be detained only for serious offences. I get quite concerned that people may see the police as the enemy because of the nature of where they live or the arrest system. However, as I have highlighted, that does not mean by any means that petty crime should be ignored. A lack of deterrent and/or punishment will lead to serious reoffending. This always seems to come back to the reoffending issue, as I have done on three occasions.

To conclude, Mr Hollobone, I commend the hon. Member for Lewisham East for bringing this issue forward, and I commend others who will speak. I agree with many of the points that have been made, but there must be a reminder that it is never okay to commit crime, and we must not allow custody for children to be a respite. They must be represented well, they must never be let down, they must always know their rights and they must be held to account under the correct procedures of the law with a compassionately firm hand, persuasion and understanding. We must show young people that there are alternatives to the route they are on that will take them away from a wrongful path.

To me, it is all about putting people on the right path, with the right focus and the right direction—I think that today’s debate does that in many ways—and protecting young people. That is ultimately what the hon. Member for Lewisham East said in her debate in the Chamber. I fully support her on that, and on the goals and achievements she is aiming for. I very much look forward to the Minister’s responses. I am quite hopeful we will get the responses that we look for, and I hope that the hon. Member for Lewisham East will be satisfied with them.