Quilliam Foundation

Jim Dobbin Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Jim Dobbin (in the Chair)]

Order. I intend to call the shadow Minister at 10.40, so that gives hon. Members some idea of how much time we have left for the remaining speakers.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Lewis]

It is not unrealistic and I made that explicit at the beginning of my speech. I said that if one does not get funds from the Government, one must get them from another sponsor. Ideally, one should have a range of funders, and the Government ought to be a part of that. My point is that if the Government have any sense, they will not withdraw funding in such a way that an organisation will collapse. If they believe that the organisation’s work is of sufficient value, they should ensure that it has secure funding before they begin to draw down their own funding stream. It is as simple as that.

I will conclude with one further point. It is my second point and I do not mind if hon. Members do not remember it, as long as they remember my first point. There are two types of counter-propaganda. There is counter-propaganda that is designed to persuade people to change their minds, and there is counter-propaganda that is designed to reinforce the moderate views that the silent majority already hold.

I shall give an example. When I was a youngster in the 1960s, a huge argument was going on about whether this country should continue to be defended by a nuclear deterrent. I was sure that it should continue to be defended by a nuclear deterrent, but time after time I would see people on the television and hear people on the radio saying, “No, that isn’t necessary.” I began to think, “Well, I’m only a teenager. What do I know about this?” I began to doubt my own commitment. Then one day, someone from another country was being interviewed on television and he made such a convincing case for the nuclear deterrent, and articulated so much better than I could, as a youngster, the case for what I believed already, that I thought, “Fine. I’m okay. That’s all I need to know. At least one other person in the world, brainier and more articulate than I am, has come to the same conclusion for the same reason.”

I believe that groups such as Quilliam both need to do the type of work that I have described and actually do that type of work. There are moderate Muslims who, because of the way in which radicalism and extremism dominate the narrative, will begin to doubt themselves—even though their own views are moderate. It is the job of a group such as Quilliam to show that when the extremists say, “We are mainstream and you are un-Islamic,” in fact the reverse is the case. To get that message across, people must be knowledgeable and professional, must have a huge amount of detail at their disposal and must have access to the airwaves, the printing presses and the internet.

I am very sorry that the Government, because they believe in persuading people to change their minds, are to kick away the support from an organisation that is dedicated to reinforcing people who do not need to change their minds, but need to be encouraged to speak up and need to be reassured that they are right and the extremists are wrong. This is not a commercial enterprise; it is a political fight. If the Government want to take the line that the organisation must be self-funding and self-supporting, let us ask ourselves this final question. How many Departments would be able to do their work if they had to raise the money to fund it themselves as a result of the product of their work, rather than their income stream coming from taxation? I think we would find that not a single Department—except perhaps the Ministry of fun—would survive such a proposition.

I believe that Quilliam’s work is essential. I believe that it is non-commercial. It has been supported thanks to the work of the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles and of the right hon. Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East, whom I congratulate on initiating this very important debate. It is no coincidence that more than half the House of Commons members of the Intelligence and Security Committee are here making this case today, even though we are making it in our personal capacities, not as members of that Committee. I shall leave time for the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) to speak. I hope that the Government will take our message extremely seriously.

[Jim Dobbin (in the Chair)]

Order. I know that Mr McFadden has been very patient, but I must remind him that the Front-Bench responses to the debate start at 10.40.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr McFadden]

I cannot speak for the Conservatives. The Minister will have a chance to do that in a few minutes.

As we have said, what Quilliam does is important because those who lead it are themselves ex-supporters of violent jihad. Therefore it is done with a level of understanding and engagement in ideological and, indeed, theological debate that is well nigh impossible for Ministers. That is important because it is extremely difficult for the state to engage in theological debate, and the argument must be won theologically as well as ideologically.

The Government have proposed to cut core funding for the organisation. That is a mistake. As the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) said, Quilliam has given strength and confidence to others, too. That is a very important aspect of its work. By stepping forward, people from the organisation have given strength to others who probably think these things but may not have seen other people in the debate giving voice to them.

I shall ask the Minister a direct question. I understand that the Home Office budget is under pressure—the pace and scale of cuts is an argument for another day—but is the decision purely budgetary or, as the hon. Member for New Forest East implied, is something else going on? Is there a wider disagreement with what Quilliam has advocated in recent years? I believe that the proposal made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East for a grant of £150,000 to give the organisation time and space to seek alternative funding is worthy of support, even in these difficult times.

Let us just ask ourselves this question. What will the debate about terrorism be like if Quilliam folds? The hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) said that there are other organisations. I have not really seen them. I have not seen others stepping forward with the degree of clarity and theological and ideological commitment that Quilliam has had.

There is a complacency about saying that others will simply step forward. I have long experience of seeing this ideology develop, not particularly as an MP, but as a Government staffer. I have seen some of the errors that Governments have made in the past and, frankly, I do not want to return to the situation we had 10 years ago, when we listened to many voices that we thought were representative. There is a danger of complacency in cutting Quilliam’s funding, and if the Minister thinks that other organisations will step forward to fill the void if Quilliam does not get the funding it so urgently needs, I would like him to name them today.

I hope that the Minister has heard the arguments that have been made today. I also hope that he will respond positively to the proposal from my right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East and tell us exactly who will speak up and make the arguments that Quilliam has made if that organisation no longer exists.

[Jim Dobbin (in the Chair)]

Thank you, Mr McFadden, for a disciplined speech.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jim Dobbin Excerpts

Monday 7th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mrs May]

Jan Berry did a valuable piece of work looking at bureaucracy in policing. We have already implemented a number of the recommendations that came out of that. I have referred to the restoration of some charging decisions down to local police, the more proportionate approach to inspections, and revising the police performance development reviews. We are taking the work forward in a slightly different way. There is a programme board led by Chris Sims, the chief constable of west midlands, which is working with the Home Office and identifying further areas of bureaucracy that can be scrapped.

[Jim Dobbin (Heywood and Middleton) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What estimate she has made of the likely number of police officers in Greater Manchester in March 2015.

[The Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice (Nick Herbert)]

It is a matter for the chief constable and the police authority to determine the number of police officers that are deployed by Greater Manchester police within the available resource.

[Jim Dobbin]

Crime levels went down under the previous Government. That is a well known fact. The chief constable of Greater Manchester estimates that around 1,500 officers will be lost because of the cuts. Can the Government justify that?

[Nick Herbert]

I should point out to the hon. Gentleman that there are also 4,000 police staff working in Greater Manchester police. There was a huge increase in the number of police staff employed by police forces under the previous Government. The chief constable of Greater Manchester police said in evidence to the Home Affairs Committee that

“there was already a recognition, certainly in Greater Manchester Police, that some of our headquarters operations had got too big.”

Forces can and must make savings in back and middle offices while protecting the front line.