Jim Cunningham
Main Page: Jim Cunningham (Labour - Coventry South)Postal Services Bill
Jim Cunningham Excerpts
Vince Cable
I am not familiar with the details of the argument in that case. I was referring to the fact that there has been a constructive relationship between the union and management on modernisation, but such issues do exist, and they are essentially commercial ones that must be dealt with by management and their employees in the normal way. None the less, I would be interested to know whether there is a specific role in the matter for the Government, and I shall respond to the hon. Lady on that.
So, I acknowledge that there will be job losses. The company is losing money and the market is declining, and that is regrettable, but it is unavoidable. The question that we need to pose is, what happens if we do not take action? What happens if Royal Mail fails and the market collapses? That is the current trend. I know that the CWU has been in Parliament today, talking to many hon. Members about their views, and I and my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary, who has responsibility for postal affairs, met the CWU to discuss Royal Mail. We look forward to continuing to talk to its representatives as the Bill goes through Parliament.
However, I have one thing to say to the union directly today: the worst thing for its members, Royal Mail’s employees, would be to do nothing, because that is the real threat to jobs in Royal Mail. The employees of Royal Mail also deserve better than constant battles between the union and the management. They deserve to be properly engaged in the business that they work for, and to have a real stake in its future. That is the only way in which we will break for ever the cycle of antagonism and mistrust that has bedevilled the company. The Bill therefore requires the creation of an employee share scheme, which will hold at least 10% of the equity in Royal Mail in future. That is very far from being a token gesture; it is nothing less than the largest employee share scheme of any major privatisation.
The employees of Royal Mail will also be concerned about their pensions, and they have good reason to be, because Royal Mail’s pension deficit is huge, growing and volatile. Put simply, it is not sustainable. Even the recent agreement between the pension fund trustees and the company is fragile. It requires that Royal Mail pay off its deficit over 38 years, which is at least twice as long as any other UK company’s repayment plan, and the pensions regulator has already said that it has substantial concerns about the agreement.
Vince Cable
I am going to go on to explain the new mechanism. Would the hon. Gentleman like to wait until I reach the end, or does he wish to intervene on that particular point?
Mr Cunningham
On pensions, what will happen to the assets, and what is their value? I am told that the pension plan has assets of about £26 billion. Is that true?
Vince Cable
Yes, it is true, but the liabilities are much bigger. I shall explain in a moment how we will deal with the assets.
The pension deficit, which is the starting point, threatens the very existence of the company. It is draining cash from Royal Mail’s modernisation and preventing it from undertaking the reforms it needs to survive. That is why the Government have to take action today. As part of the sale, the Bill will allow the Government to take on responsibility for the pension deficit. We will not only address the deficit, but reduce the size of the Royal Mail pension plan to a more manageable level for the business. The liabilities of Royal Mail are more than 50 times annual profits. By comparison, the liabilities of the average FTSE 100 company are closer to one times profits—an enormous difference.
We intend to reduce the plan to about one tenth of its size today. We will do so by creating a new public sector pension scheme that will assume responsibility for paying out the past pension benefits of Royal Mail employees. In effect, all members of the Royal Mail pension plan will have their past service moved to a new Government scheme like that of the NHS or teachers. It is the same solution to Royal Mail’s pension problems as the previous Government proposed in their 2009 Bill.
I know that hon. Members will be concerned about the detail of the proposed pension arrangements, and we will provide a note to Parliament in order to explain the practical effects of those very complex changes, but I should like to reassure the House on two points in relation to pensions.
First, let me be clear that this solution is by far the best outcome for the employees of Royal Mail. The action that we are taking in the Bill will ensure that all the benefits that employees have earned will be safeguarded. The benefits that become the responsibility of the Government will be protected in the Bill, and all members of the Royal Mail pension plan will benefit from that support—Post Office and Royal Mail employees alike.
As a bottom line, the Bill places an obligation on the Government to ensure that our action leaves members in no worse a position than they were in before. This means that the amount of benefits that they receive will be at least as good as if the Government had not acted. There will also be a restriction on the Government’s ability to make any changes to the new public scheme in future that would adversely affect members. The Government intend to use that restriction to reflect as closely as possible the current protection that members of the pension plan are afforded under section 67 of the Pensions Act 1995.
Secondly, the measure is not a Government plan to massage the Government’s accounts, for the very simple reason that the Royal Mail pension plan has a deficit of £8 billion. That is the cost to the Government of implementing the solution on behalf of the company and its employees. Let me be clear: the Government are taking on liabilities that are much bigger than the assets. I have seen reports—perhaps this is what the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) was referring to—that the Government will be selling off the Royal Mail pension plan’s £24 billion of assets. It is certainly true that the surplus assets above the level needed to leave the ongoing pension plan fully funded will be transferred to the Government. It is also true that these transferred assets will be sold because it makes no sense for Government to sit on a massive investment portfolio.
I, for one, do not wish to see central Government taking such a huge investment risk with taxpayers’ money. So yes, we will sell the portfolio of assets which transfer across to Government, and this is likely to involve over £20 billion of asset sales over time. But the important point—it is absolutely crucial to this argument—is that we will be making payments to members of the Royal Mail pension plan for at least the next 50 years.
Mr Denham
The previous Labour Government floated proposals for the sale of a minority stake. Given the changes that have taken place in Royal Mail, there may be ways of accessing private capital that do not depend on an equity stake. Some partnerships of that sort might well be highly desirable, but the question is whether anything the Secretary of State said made the case for a total sale of the company. I listened to him very carefully, but I did not hear a single sentence that made a case for clause 1, which is the basis on which we oppose the Bill.
Mr Jim Cunningham
It does not take long for employees to sell their shares, so selling shares to employees would create another imbalance.
Mr Denham
I understand my hon. Friend’s point, but the Opposition should explore positively, including in discussions with the unions, how employee share ownership might work. Models of trust-based employee share ownership would avoid the risks he describes. It would clearly be nonsense to provide shares to employees that could be sold on within a few months, which happened in many previous privatisations, to everyone’s great regret. We should look at the conditions, but I agree that it would be a complete nonsense to create the conditions he describes.
Mr Cunningham
I remember the privatisation of Rolls-Royce. The employees were given shares, but rapidly sold them.
Mr Denham
Clearly, any measure that allowed that kind of swift onward sale, resulting essentially in 100% private ownership of Royal Mail, would explode the Government’s rhetoric on the Bill. I can assure my hon. Friend that we will look at the proposals in great detail in Committee.
Mr Denham
If my hon. Friend will forgive me, I will happily take another intervention from him when I come to my point on protecting the public interest during the sale.
I said that the Bill excludes the public from any potential long-term gain from a transformed Royal Mail, but in addition the benefits could go entirely to overseas interests. Frankly, I am surprised how sanguine the Secretary of State is at that prospect, because faced with the sale of Cadbury to Kraft, he said:
“It is particularly galling…that state-owned RBS should part fund this takeover when it is clearly not in the interests of the UK economy.”
I must point out that the Secretary of State is today effectively using taxpayers’ money to transfer the ownership of Royal Mail overseas.
There are good reasons to worry about the public interest during the sales process. On one side will be potential buyers, who will have every interest in lobbying for the maximum commercial freedom for the operation and for the minimum of social obligation. The other side—we might like to think this means the Secretary of State, but it means the Treasury—has an interest in gaining the highest price. Both sides, therefore, will argue to cut social obligation to a minimum. It is not difficult to anticipate the outcome of that situation. I suspect that one reason the Secretary of State was able to say so little on the long-term interest of Royal Mail in the post office network is precisely that he is caught uncomfortably in the vice between the Treasury and potential buyers.
Mr Binley
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. When I talked about senior management, I meant very senior management indeed. The lesson should go out to the whole House that bringing in from the private sector people who are sometimes seen as bully boys is not the best way to produce good industrial relations. That is, in fact, what happened. I see the hon. Gentleman nodding; I am glad he agrees with me.
Mr Jim Cunningham
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will recall, as I do, that the previous chief executive of the Royal Mail was a very difficult man for Members to meet.
Mr Binley
I had the distinction—perhaps that is not the best word—of meeting the chief executive in question, and I read some of his letters to the work force. I have to say that if I had been a member of that work force, I would have been horrified to receive those letters. If they had been circulated in a company that I had anything to do with, I would have done my very best to bring the gentleman in question to book. I hope that my answer will enable the hon. Gentleman to understand that I too share his concerns.
We need a massive change in management. I believe that the Bill is designed to achieve that and might well succeed, but we still have not had the answers we need to provide any certitude in that direction. We are dealing with a pension deficit in the region of £10.4 billion. We have to find answers as to how best to deal with that, and I believe that the Bill finds those answers.
Finally—I know many Members wish to speak—I want to return to the question of management, which is central to the success of any measures put in place to save a broke and bust Post Office. I appeal to the Minister responsible for postal affairs to explain in more detail how his proposals will achieve that objective. The previous Government saw that as an important part of the process of rejuvenating the Post Office. That is why they introduced a Bill that would have meant a new injection of capital, with 30% ownership from the private sector. Sadly, that did not work. I do not believe that the previous Government worked hard enough to push it through. I understand why it did not work—because the Government did not have the courage to go further. No private company would seriously consider that small a holding for that big an investment. It was a very difficult proposition from the beginning.
The truth is that the success of the Post Office will revolve around better relationships with the workers, better modernisation and removing the great pension fund burden. I believe that all those things can happen under the Bill if—I say again, if—we get the correct level of quality management. Such management must recognise that the whole of the marketplace has moved so quickly that there are very many opportunities, but it will take creativity, courage and bravery on the part of that management to achieve the successes that the organisation can achieve. I ask the Minister to use a little of his time to explain to us how he will attract that quality management, which is so central to the success of the operation.