FIFA

Jesse Norman Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Westminster Hall

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the UK’s relationship with FIFA.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. At the start of my remarks, I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) to her position, for the first of what I am sure will be many sterling debates and sterling performances as the Minister for sport. I congratulate her on her appointment.

The purpose of this debate is to consider the UK’s relationship with FIFA: not just the English Football Association but the football associations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; not just the relationship between the football bodies and FIFA, but FIFA’s relationship with the Government and any other UK commercial interests, too. The timing of this debate has undoubtedly been influenced by the dramatic events that unfolded in Zurich just over a week ago, with the arrests of 14 FIFA officials in an operation led by the FBI and carried out by the Swiss investigatory authorities. It poses the question of what our response should be to those dramatic events and to the new timetable for the rest of this year, now that Sepp Blatter has announced that he will be stepping down from the FIFA presidency. In my opening remarks, I will address how we got to our current position and the responses to the crisis that the UK should consider.

The events in Zurich come as no surprise to people who have followed the FIFA saga for a number of years. Earlier this year, I became a founder member of a new international campaign group, New FIFA Now, to push for change and reform in FIFA by forming an alliance of politicians, business people and people in the media to create external pressure on FIFA. In April, New FIFA Now published the results of a global survey of well over 10,000 football fans from across the world: 97% of respondents had no confidence in the leadership of FIFA, and 69% of respondents felt that there should be a full and open inquiry and investigation into the allegations of wrongdoing at FIFA.

In 2011, when I was a member of the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport, the Committee considered matters of concern regarding the World cup bidding process completed in 2010 that awarded the rights to host the tournaments in 2018 and 2022. In that debate I used parliamentary privilege to raise concerns that had been brought to the Committee’s attention in evidence submitted by The Sunday Times Insight team. That evidence alleged that two FIFA executive committee members, Issa Hayatou and Jacques Anouma, received $1.5 million in payments to support the Qatar bid for the World cup, linked to their votes in the process to award the rights to host the tournament. Lord Triesman came to the same Select Committee hearing to make his own allegations about approaches that he had received during the World cup bidding process from other FIFA officials who had solicited either bribes or favours from him. He named Mr Makudi from Thailand, Jack Warner, Nicolás Leoz and Ricardo Teixeira.

It is interesting to note what has happened to some of those individuals over the past four years. Issa Hayatou was reprimanded by the International Olympic Committee for receiving improper payments from sports marketing company International Sport and Leisure in relation to the awarding of rights. Jacques Anouma was accused of receiving bribes by Phaedra al-Majid, the Qatari whistleblower who worked on the Qatar World cup bid and is now living in the United States after making her allegations about that bid. Jack Warner was involved in the scandal over the attempt to buy votes in the FIFA presidential election, and he is on Interpol’s wanted list following a request for him to co-operate with the FBI investigation that came to such a dramatic conclusion with the issuing of arrest warrants in Zurich just over a week ago. Similarly, a warrant has been issued for the arrest of Nicolás Leoz. Ricardo Teixeira, the former head of the Brazilian football association, who was named by Lord Triesman, was removed from his position in world football after being found guilty of receiving bribes that, again, were linked to the ISL sports marketing corruption case, in which payments were made to FIFA officials in relation to their support on contracts awarded for World cup broadcast footage and World cup marketing rights. Ricardo Teixeira, along with the previous president of FIFA, João Havelange, allegedly received $41 million-worth of payments in relation to ISL.

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is making a brilliant speech, rightly showing how the culture of corruption at FIFA, which he identified so early, has embedded itself over many years. By mentioning Mr Havelange, he points to its rising up the organisation—I hope he will discuss how that has transpired. Does he share my view that not only is FIFA rotten from top to bottom but that the response last week from Mr Warner in particular was a remarkable reaction to the revelations?

[Damian Collins]

My hon. Friend is right. We are talking about a widespread, systemic failure of an organisation—widespread corruption—and the role of Jack Warner in this is key. He has said that he has handed to the FBI an “avalanche” of evidence, which includes references to Sepp Blatter himself. I think it is highly likely that Sepp Blatter will be asked to co-operate with both the FBI investigation and the Swiss authorities’ criminal investigation into the World cup bidding process.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jesse Norman (Hereford and South Herefordshire) (Con)]

It is a joy to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I join colleagues in congratulating my hon. Friend the new Minister for the brilliant start she has made in her role. I am particularly delighted, because her appointment shows that in this new, one nation, compassionate Government, all prior sins will be forgiven. I am rather hoping that that will extend to other colleagues in due course. [Hon. Members: “Declare an interest!”] Perhaps I should.

Colleagues are absolutely right to pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins). The truth of the matter is that for a long time this issue has not been front and centre in discussions in the House, but he has made it so. He has campaigned on it for a long time, and it is to his huge credit that he did so and built up such unmatched expertise, and also that he has highlighted the conditions of the workers in Qatar. As he made clear, this is only the beginning of the process begun by the US and Swiss authorities. It is clear that we can expect not only that the process will continue, but secondary lawsuits—for example, from defeated bidders. The repercussions of what has begun will resound for many years to come, and possibly for decades.

As colleagues have noted, if Mr Blatter is allowed to continue to run the process to select his successor, and to defend FIFA and his interests as vigorously as he has done so far, there is every possibility that little, if anything, will change as a result of any reforms made. This is an institution with virtually no transparency, accountability or oversight, as has been amply demonstrated by its failure to make public the Garcia report and any further reflections on it. In that context, the legal process is under way, but there is only one other solution on the table: cut off the money supply and target the commercial sponsors and broadcasters.

[Chris Evans]

It is important to talk about sponsors, but the World cup reaches a worldwide audience, so if McDonald’s or Coca-Cola are not involved, some other company will take their place because they all want to get into people’s homes. The hon. Gentleman is a Conservative, so perhaps he will not like this, but has he given any consideration to players going on strike? If the World cup did not feature the likes of Lionel Messi or Christiano Ronaldo, it would be diminished. That would send a powerful message to FIFA.

[Jesse Norman]

That is a very interesting suggestion. The question to ask before that is whether, if it is shown that the bidding processes for the Moscow and Qatar World cups were in fact as corrupt as is widely believed, due thought should be given by sponsors and broadcasters to setting up a parallel organisation in order to bring FIFA to its senses. That is the move that we should make before contemplating a players’ boycott, which has not always proven effective in other sports.

The Bribery Act 2010 has rightly been mentioned. I have recently written in support of my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe to try to clarify some details and ask for further guidance. The Act has a very wide jurisdiction: it applies to any commercial organisation that trades in the UK and fails to prevent bribery by a person associated with it, and that bribery can take place anywhere in the world. In other words, it gives a lot of potential for prosecution. It was supposed to update the law on white-collar crime, but the fact of the matter is that very few convictions have been secured so far, and there is little, if any, evidence that a prosecution has been brought under the crucial section 7.

I asked the director of the Serious Fraud Office questions that build on some of those already mentioned. I asked whether the sponsors associated with FIFA—Adidas, McDonald’s, Gazprom, Hyundai, Kia, Budweiser, Coca-Cola and Visa—might be guilty of offences; what specific measures the SFO has taken or will take, and what it knew; whether it has met employees or agents of, or advisers to, the sponsors, or has plans to meet them; and what steps have been taken to interview employees or agents who may potentially be subject to UK criminal prosecution. I have not yet received a response to my letter; I hope that I do, and I will make it public when it arrives. Politicians cannot be in the business of unduly influencing legal procedures, but it is striking that so few prosecutions have been brought under an Act that was supposed to clean up white-collar crime.

The next stage is to move on to the broadcasters. Broadcast rights money may also have been used in corrupt practices. If the broadcasters are commercial organisations under the law, they too may be subject to the 2010 Act—and, of course, they need not be British, but merely trading in this country, as all the world’s broadcasters do. After that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) mentioned, we can move on to the banks, money laundering and other malfeasance, much of which we have heard about on the Select Committee on the Treasury.

I will close by reflecting on the bidding for the World cups in 2018 and 2022. Anecdotal evidence is starting to build to suggest that the processes were deeply corrupt. If so, there is little hope of those processes being unwound, but what is the alternative? The only alternative, which must balance European interests and those of the new markets for football, is that a pan-European World cup, covering every major footballing nation in Europe and using existing stadiums, be held in 2018. That could buy us some time. It could easily be hosted, as the stadiums and infrastructure are present, and it would allow more time for the Qatar World cup—an odd proposition in its own right—to be fully assessed. Many football associations across Europe backed Mr Blatter, and if we hold such a World cup, they can come together and start to bind up some of the wounds, and the whole of footballing Europe can then move on.

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[Clive Efford]

It is inconceivable, and that is why it is extraordinary that Blatter is still in place. I am not relaxed about the fact that he is going to remain there until 16 December. He should have gone when he resigned. His desk should have been cleared and he should have been escorted from the building. That is what would happen if anyone in any other circumstances were found to have been associated with this sort of corruption, whether proven or not—they would not be given the chance to stay in their post, clear up the mess and cover up their misdemeanours. That would not happen in any other organisation, so I do not see why we should accept it when it comes to FIFA.

Members have commented on the 2018 and 2022 World cups. I do not think we should attempt to host the 2018 World cup. It would be an afterthought, and holding the world’s premier major tournament requires a great deal of long-term planning. We should be looking at a future bid, perhaps for 2026 or 2030. We certainly should not be a stopgap, as we would not make the most of hosting the World cup that way. The 2022 World cup, currently to be held in Qatar, would not come to Europe; Australia or the USA will bid for that.

[Jesse Norman]

The small ingenuity of my proposal to run the 2018 tournament across Europe is that the burden would fall evenly and so could be managed quickly. Also, we would not be in the driving seat arguing our own case but would be arguing for a pan-European solution.

[Clive Efford]

That may be what happens, but it may be too late to unpick all the contracts for the 2018 World cup.

I also want to mention human rights. If there is any reason we should not go ahead with the World cup in 2022 it is the human rights issue. I have said this on several occasions and will do so again: the idea of multimillionaire footballers running around in stadiums built by people working in virtual slave labour conditions, so many of whom have died—more people than will take part in the tournament—is one that I find abhorrent. I cannot support it. That issue alone calls into question the decision to go ahead with the 2022 World cup.

In yesterday’s Guardian, the SFO said it is actively investigating FIFA. Will the Minister shed some light on exactly what it is investigating and when we can expect to hear anything? Bearing in mind that the US attorney’s indictments go back to 1991, what discussions has the Minister had with the FA about any misdemeanours that it may have committed in a previous guise? I commend our FA for having been innocents abroad in our bid for the 2018 World cup; the fact that we got only one vote other than our own suggests that we were very innocent, but we need to go back to 1991 and look at what the FA was up to back then to ensure that no one was involved in the early days of the corruption that has beset FIFA. Will she also give us a reassurance that at no stage has any money from UK broadcasters been used in any way to pay or facilitate bribes to any members of FIFA, or to members of FIFA members’ families, for that matter?

I am sure we will return to this issue. It is one on which we can all work together, as we have a common cause in cleaning up FIFA.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Tracey Crouch)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Streeter. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Folkestone and Hythe (Damian Collins) on securing this important and timely debate. I am aware of his tireless campaign for FIFA reform over a number of years and commend him for his work in founding New FIFA Now. That initiative was not a reaction to the events that have unfolded over the past couple of weeks but was launched many months ago, underlining the fact that this issue has long needed to be tackled. The phrase “new FIFA now” pretty much sums up what is needed; that has been the key message to come out of recent events and today’s debate.

This is my first Westminster Hall debate as Minister with responsibility for sport, and it is sad that it relates to a matter that has brought the game’s reputation into question. The debate was secured before the announcement that Sepp Blatter was stepping down as president of FIFA. As has been demonstrated, it has been an important debate and one that we needed to have. Before I respond in detail to some of the issues raised, I congratulate all colleagues who have participated.

It was unfair of the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) to say I was never nice to him; I am always nice to him. He spoke passionately, which demonstrates how important this crisis is. I completely agree that its impact is not necessarily limited to the institution itself; it affects the future of the grassroots game. That theme was briefly picked up by my right hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green). Having worked for him, I know he is also incredibly passionate about football. He put five challenges to the Government, and I will deal with some of them later, because others raised them, too. However, I want to refer now to his questions about gambling, which I am also responsible for in the Department. On the risks emanating from increased gambling linked to football and sport, I am confident that the UK has robust systems and processes in place. All the key stakeholders—the Gambling Commission, sport, betting operators and law enforcement— work together in the Sports Betting Integrity Forum to identify and address such issues. I hope that answers my right hon. Friend’s question. I will return to the other issues he raised.

I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to the girls’ team in the constituency of the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon). Having spoken to its members, I know they are absolutely passionate about the game and determined to improve and grow it in Northern Ireland, which is still a little behind where we are in England. I could see the determination of those I met to ensure that everybody has access to the sport, and I commend the hon. Gentleman on the work he has been doing to develop the game in his constituency.

My hon. Friend the Member for Beverley and Holderness (Graham Stuart) rightly referred to trust in the game, and I will refer later to that and to the other issues he raised. Along with my hon. Friend the Member for Hereford and South Herefordshire (Jesse Norman), he mentioned the publication of the Garcia report. The Secretary of State and I are of the view, as we were in our previous life on the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, that the report should be published in full.

[Jesse Norman]

Is it not within the Minister’s power to seek to have the Garcia report shown confidentially to Ministers?

[Tracey Crouch]

I am still working out what all my powers are, to be perfectly honest, but if I do have that power, I would love to see the report.

As an Arsenal fan, I am glad that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) managed to recover in time to make such an excellent speech. It included some really brilliant points, which I will deal with in detail. My hon. Friend the Member for High Peak (Andrew Bingham) is a huge sports fan, and hon. Members will definitely want him on their quiz team.