Statutory Sick Pay and Protection for Workers

Debate between Jess Phillips and Bill Esterson

Wednesday 18th March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

We have heard some powerful speeches from hon. Members of three parties. I commend my right hon. and hon. Friends for what they have said.

It is a challenge to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), because he spoke so powerfully. He started with his experience of growing up in the grip of the completely inadequate welfare system that we had then. The point he made that touched me was how dangerous it will be if we do not respond to the crisis by putting in place the necessary economic measures right now, because we run the risk of subjecting millions of our fellow citizens to long-term hardship. That is why the situation is so urgent and requires so much action from the Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) said, only the Government can take that action.

We in this country face a situation where the number of fatalities had doubled in two days to 69 when I looked yesterday. If that is the growth rate of the number of fatalities, we will be where Italy is today by next Friday. That is the reality of what is happening, if those figures are right. That brings home to me, and I am sure to everybody, the need for the fastest possible action on health and on the economy.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North mentioned the need to support health workers. That applies across the public sector. The No. 1 priority is to get them protection so that they can do their jobs and to make sure that the testing regime is there as quickly as possible. It will not wait any longer.

That priority is very closely followed by the economic response that is needed. If we are to reassure people across the country to take the actions recommended by the Government, and rightly spelled out by the Minister, we must also give them the financial assurance that they can do so. That has to happen straightaway. The SNP spokesman was right in saying that it should happen in the next few hours. Yesterday’s measures were only a start. I accept that the Chancellor rightly acknowledged that they were only part of a number of steps. As a result of this debate, Ministers are hearing further reinforcement of why it is important to get action for individuals today—not next week.

I will give some case studies. The bus driver in London who believes that he has coronavirus symptoms is still going to work, because sick pay would not be enough money to put food on the table, let alone cover the £1,200 in rent that he pays every month. He cannot afford not to work. The reflexologist who works in a care home now cannot go to work because she is a visitor. The dog kennel owner is not going to get any dogs to look after. Their income is gone. The tutor has lost all of her income.

My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West talked about renters. They are often also the most at risk from income loss, because of the nature of the work they are involved in. The Government need to support landlords as well as tenants in the private rented sector, as well as supporting social housing landlords at the same time. We have heard reports about rough sleepers being on the tube in London and on public transport elsewhere. They are clearly in great distress. The support for people outside the system is essential straight away. At this stage, as far as I can see, it is not in place.

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that for lots of the people he is talking about—the Chancellor repeatedly talked yesterday about those who are self-employed, for example, being able to claim universal credit instead of SSP in this circumstance—this simply is not good enough? Today I have had lots of reports of people trying to do that in my constituency, and they are being told by the Department for Work and Pensions that they have to go to a face-to-face meeting and go through a series of protocols in order to do that. Let alone the dangers of a face-to-face meeting, it is simply not the case that these people can get any access to universal credit at the moment.

[Bill Esterson]

I thank my hon. Friend for what she says. It reinforces the point, and she made the same point in the question she asked the Chancellor yesterday evening. I just hope that Ministers are taking on board how quickly things need to change. One of my constituents made the point that he does not qualify for statutory sick pay, as he is self-employed. That is a real problem for the 5 million people who are self-employed and have lost all their work. Whether it is universal credit or ESA, it simply is not anywhere near enough money. He is staying at home, observing advice from Government and not able to earn his weekly wage. Whatever is in the package from the Government, which the Minister has already referred to, it is nowhere near enough for what they need.

Another of my constituents, a nurse, asked me to raise the situation of principal carers who live with somebody in a vulnerable group. What is the advice for her? The example she gives is her son, who cares for his wife, who has a chronic respiratory disease. She is 26, but with that disease she is clearly in one of the highest risk groups. She cannot work and does not leave the house, but what is he supposed to do? He is still going to work, but with great anxiety, because he might catch the disease and pass it on to her. They have a mortgage and they need his income. Those are real-world examples. We have all heard them from our constituents and from others around the country, and they show why action has to be immediate.

I have mentioned the self-employed and freelancers, small firms and people on zero-hours contracts. The support just is not there. If someone is employed and they qualify, the £94.25 a week they get is not enough. Universal credit is not enough. The support announced yesterday for the hospitality and retail sectors for a few weeks is encouraging, but what is really needed is the kind of cash injection that a number of my hon. and right hon. Friends have already mentioned, and that was put to the Chancellor last night in the statement.

Loans are part of the answer, but there is a massive question mark with loans from a banking system that many businesses still do not trust because of how it behaved during the financial crisis. Loans have to be repaid. That was the point I made to the Chancellor in the question I asked last night. In reality, we have to avoid storing up problems further down the line with the actions that are taken now. These were very big numbers—eye-catching, headline-grabbing numbers, such as £330 billion—but the reality is that the £10,000 on offer to small firms will not last very long as a grant.

Then there is the question of information. The Minister mentioned the gov.uk website. Not many businesses—and I work with them across the country—are aware that that is where to go to get this information. The Government need to do a lot more to get the information out there quickly on a range of issues, using social media, television and radio.

The grant system for businesses announced yesterday appears only to be starting next week. Again, that is so much later than needed. Is there any way of bringing it forward? We have heard the examples from Scandinavia, with contributions towards salaries of 75% by the Government in Denmark, 90% in Sweden and 60% in Germany, or 67% for those with parental responsibilities. The Minister said that these things take time. Why is it that other countries have been able to put these measures in place so quickly, but we are not at that stage yet? What is holding us back if they were able to do it? It seems to me that if they can do it, so can we.

Are the Government looking at what the TUC has said about a real living wage and what Members have said about a universal basic income for a limited period? I tend to agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford North on that period. We need to redefine what we mean by sick pay. It is not just whether someone is sick; it is whether they are in danger of becoming sick and infecting other people. It is about giving financial reassurance and making up for the lost jobs, the livelihoods that are at risk and the contracts that have gone in whatever sector of the economy, for as long as it takes.

Only the Government can intervene, and if we do not get this right, it will be so much worse for the health of us all and for the economy. The Government say that they will do whatever it takes—that is the three-word slogan of the moment. “Whatever it takes” means giving every single person in this country the financial security they need right now to ensure that they can protect themselves, their families and the rest of us.