Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [ Lords ] (Third sitting)

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Wilson]

I have not had any direct conversations with the Department for Education, but my officials are in contact with that Department regularly across a number of these areas. I would be slightly surprised if that had not been discussed at some point, but the commission will be looking at all these things and taking them into account—[Interruption.] Ah, a note has appeared on my desk. Apparently, there is no conflict with other regulators’ powers and practices, so I hope that reassures the hon. Gentleman.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I am very reassured by all these safeguards. If we come across cases where it seems that the tribunal is regularly in conflict with the decisions of the Charity Commission, will the Government then look at that to see whether there are problems in the interpretation by the Charity Commission or the tribunal about what constitutes good grounds for disqualification?

[Mr Wilson]

That certainly has not happened to date—there has not been a conflict between the decisions of the charity tribunal and the Charity Commission—and I do not expect it to happen, because the Charity Commission works on the basis of the trust placed in it by the charitable sector. If the Charity Commission is regularly getting decisions wrong, that will have an impact on its status within the sector. The Charity Commission does all that it can to avoid a downgrade in its status. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend that the Charity Commission would always act in the sector’s best interests, in terms of proportionality and section 16 of the Charities Act 2011, which I have constantly mentioned, and that it would always try to get its decisions right, so that it does not come into regular conflict with the charity tribunal.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Wilson]

Once again I find that I have a great deal of sympathy with the intention behind the amendment, but once again I do not think it is necessary, and I believe it could have unintended consequences.

Let me explain first why I do not think the amendment is necessary. I agree that the commission should only consider conduct that is “relevant and serious”; in fact, so does the commission itself. The commission has said that under clause 11, it would provide the individual involved with an explanation identifying the conduct in question and why it thought that conduct met condition F. If the commission took account of conduct that was not relevant to the person’s ability to act as a charity trustee or senior manager, I would expect that any such disqualification order would be thrown out by the charity tribunal on appeal. As I have just discussed with my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford, the Charity Commission would not want that to happen on a regular basis.

As I have said many times, the commission would need to act in line with the duty set out in section 16(4) of the 2011 Act, under which its regulatory activities

“should be proportionate, accountable, consistent, transparent and targeted only at cases in which action is needed”.

As a public body, the commission would also have to consider general human rights and equality duties.

The commission’s draft paper on its initial thoughts about how it would exercise its disqualification power provides some useful guidance. The commission recognises that condition F is widely drawn, but it gives examples of the types of conduct that it could take into account. For instance, if the conduct in question was by a trustee of a charity, it could consider whether it was misconduct or mismanagement, and whether it would put the charity’s property or reputation at undue risk. It could also take into account misconduct in another position of trust and responsibility; convictions relevant to the charity’s purposes, for example a conviction for animal cruelty by a trustee of an animal welfare charity; regulatory breaches that have been penalised by another authority, for example legal breaches on tax matters; a finding of misconduct by a professional body or regulator; or an adverse finding by a charity self-regulatory body or umbrella body.

I think the Committee will agree that those examples show the sorts of conduct that the regulator should consider. Whatever the conduct, which must be both relevant and serious, the commission would also have to meet the other two limbs of the test for disqualification: first, that the person is unfit to serve as a charity trustee; and, secondly, that making the disqualification order is in the public interest to protect public trust and confidence in charities. Under the disqualification power in clause 11, the commission would already need to consider conduct that was both relevant and serious.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

The Minister has already been helpful, but I would just like to get some clarification from him. Would somebody who has not yet served as a trustee of a charity be liable to be placed on the disqualification register, so that they would not be able to serve as a trustee of a charity, or does the register apply only to people who are already trustees or who have served as trustees? In other words, will the clause prevent people from becoming trustees in the future, or will it only apply to people who are either trustees now or who have been trustees in the past?

[Mr Wilson]

I think the answer to that question is “possibly”, and I would like to take some advice before I give a fuller answer. Hopefully I can get that advice fairly quickly, while I am going through the second half of my response.

I turn to the potential unintended consequence of including the words “relevant and serious” in condition F in clause 11, namely that it would cast doubt on other commission powers for which those words do not exist. At the moment, the exercise of other powers, such as the power to remove a charity trustee, depends on conduct that is both relevant and serious, even though those words are not included in the criteria for exercising the relevant powers.

I am very sympathetic to the aims of amendment 6, and hopefully, I can manage to answer the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford asked. [Interruption.] Ah, yes. That is good news. The order could apply to people who are not trustees, but it would depend on the individual’s conduct. My original answer was right—“possibly”—but my hon. Friend asked a sensible and important question, and I will write to him in detail about it.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I am most grateful for that. I am concerned that the provision will potentially give the commission an excuse for trawling to discover all sorts of people who commit offences and allow it to say, “Let’s get them disqualified as trustees, even though they have no desire to become a trustee.” That would cause a great deal of unnecessary work.

[Mr Wilson]

I see and understand the point that my hon. Friend makes. The best way for me to deal with it, as we have a period of time before Report in which we can consider the matter further, is to write to him in detail. If people were able to conduct trawling, as he calls it, that would be a worrying scenario.

I hope the Committee will understand why I believe the amendment is not necessary and could be counterproductive. I hope that the hon. Member for Redcar will withdraw it.

Charities (Protection and Social Investment) Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Tuesday 15th December 2015 Public Bill Committees

[The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson)]

The clause is a sensible extension of the existing powers of the Charity Commission that are available to it when it is conducting a statutory inquiry under section 46 of the Charities Act 2011. At the moment, when a statutory inquiry is under way and the commission is satisfied that there has been either misconduct or mismanagement, or that there is risk to charity property, it may direct a charity to undertake certain actions under section 84 of the Act. The purpose of the existing section 84 power is to allow the commission to direct any action to be taken that it

“considers to be expedient in the interests of the charity.”

Legal precedent confirms that “expedient” in that context means advantageous or beneficial, so the action that the commission proposes will be of advantage or benefit to the charity’s interests, which in effect means the charity’s beneficiaries. However, the advantage or benefit must be viewed only in the context of the issues raised through the inquiry and not in the belief that it would be good for the charity in general terms. Specific examples of where the commission already uses that power include ordering a charity to undertake a governance review in a defined period; review a legal agreement; provide specified documentation by a certain date; ensure that a named individual is monitored on charity premises at all times; draw up a risk management procedure in a certain timeframe and implement that procedure; and take legal advice in connection with a matter concerning the charity and its funds.

Published figures in “Tackling abuse and mis- management: 2013-14” show that the commission used that power to direct charities on 38 occasions. As we have discussed, the commission has been exercising its power more often and more effectively, so we may well see that figure increase in the report for 2014-15, which will be published in the coming weeks.

The power to direct a charity to do something is long held and the commission has well-established procedures and policies in its armoury. The commission also has the power under section 76(3)(f) of the Charities Act 2011 to restrict a charity from undertaking certain financial transactions. That existing power can be exercised in a number of ways, including freezing a charity’s bank account; requiring the charity’s trustees to seek commission approval before entering certain transactions; and preventing specific transactions. That was used on 15 occasions in 2013-14.

The commission does not have the power to prevent a charity from undertaking actions or activities that would amount to misconduct or mismanagement during the course of a statutory inquiry. That is a loophole and the clause is a common-sense addition that will give it that power.

Some people have expressed concern that the commission could use that power to undermine freedom of association or freedom of speech, in particular for charities with religious purposes, but it is important to point out that it would be available to the commission only to prevent activities that would constitute misconduct or mismanagement were they to go ahead or continue. Therefore, if a charity engaged in unlawful political activity such as supporting a political party and holding partisan events, the Charity Commission could act to prevent further such activity from taking place.

It is worth pointing out, as the hon. Member for Redcar did, that the commission’s equivalent in Scotland, the Office of the Scottish Charity Regulator, has a similar power. Section 28 of the Charities and Trustee Investment (Scotland) Act 2005 enables the OSCR to

“direct any charity, body or person with regard to which it is making inquiries…not to undertake”

specific activities for a period of six months. The OSCR may seek a court order for longer restrictions.

The Joint Committee supported the inclusion of such a power, provided that it was tightly drawn to clarify the circumstances in which it could be used, along with the safeguards that applied, particularly the right of appeal. The new power in the clause will enable the Charity Commission to intervene to prevent misconduct or mismanagement from taking place rather than having to watch powerlessly, then take remedial action once the damage has been done.

The bar for exercising the power will be high and there will be six specific protections. First, the power can be used only in the context of a statutory inquiry. Secondly, the commission will have to be satisfied of the need to prevent misconduct, mismanagement or risk to charity property. Thirdly, the commission must set out a statement of reasons for exercising the power and review any order regularly—at least every six months. Fourthly, the making and every review of the order will be subject to a right of appeal to the Charity Tribunal and, like all its other protective and remedial powers, this power is subject to the Commission’s duty to act proportionately under section 16 of the Charities Act 2011.

Let me give the Committee two examples of cases in which the powers might be used. In recent years, there have been several cases of charities involved in the abuse of charitable business rates relief. In such cases, the so-called charity enters into multiple tenancy agreements with commercial property owners at reduced rents without any real evidence that the tenancies are in the best interests of the charity or are used meaningfully for charitable purposes. Once occupied by the charity, the property benefits from a reduction of at least 80% in business rates relief, which can be a substantial sum. The saving is often shared between the charity and the property owner. Local councils and honest taxpayers end up losing out. The commission has taken action in such cases, but it can do so only after the event. The new power would enable the commission to direct the charity not to enter into, renew or continue any further tenancies, in effect preventing the misconduct from continuing.

Another example in which the power could be used would arise if a charity had made significant loans to companies connected to the trustees. The trustees would seek to become insolvent and to wind up the charity, writing off the loans and resulting in significant financial benefit to the companies connected to the trustees. In that case, the commission would be able to use the new power to direct the trustees not to wind up the charity, buying time to sort things out by, for example, removing the trustees, or appointing new trustees or even an interim manager to act in the charity’s best interests, which could involve calling in the loans.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Main. I am interested in the Minister’s example of charity shops having 80% or more discount on their business rates. I came across an instance recently of a thriving and popular business effectively being told by the landlord to move because they wanted to put in a charity shop which was offering a higher rent than that popular business. Part of me thinks that that might be the result of a charity being able to pay a higher rent because it does not pay any rates. How would the amendment affect that?

[Mr Wilson]

I take the point made by my hon. Friend, but I really do not think it is a matter for the Bill. He may want to raise it with the Chancellor or the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills. I do not think it is for me to deal with it today.

Some people have argued that it should not be possible for the power to extend beyond the life of a statutory inquiry, and I think that is what the amendment of the hon. Member for Redcar seeks to prevent. However, the hon. Lady may be seeking to do something slightly different, as her explanatory statement for the amendment suggests that she wants a direction to cease following a successful tribunal appeal. I can assure her that if such a direction were appealed it would be for the tribunal to decide what would happen—for example, whether the direction would be quashed, remain in place or remitted to the charity commission to be reconsidered. If the hon. Lady is concerned that the commission could exercise the power following an official warning, let me remind her that it could be exercised only when a statutory inquiry had been opened, which itself could be appealed to the Charity Commission.

Let me explain why I think that it should be possible for a direction to remain place beyond the life of a statutory inquiry, although not indefinitely. The power to direct action not to be taken is a temporary protective power for the Charity Commission. That is why it is subject to review at least every six months, so that the commission can confirm whether it considers it necessary for it to remain in force. That process would be subject every time to the commission’s duty to act proportionately and to the right of appeal to the charity tribunal.

The power is not a permanent, remedial one designed to address the underlying issues, which may need to be addressed by the exercise of other commission powers, including removal of trustees. It is designed to prevent specific further misconduct or mismanagement from taking place once a statutory inquiry has been opened, but those individuals need to know that the power can remain in place for sufficient time so that they do not simply decide to wait for six months before attempting the misconduct again or allowing the mismanagement to occur again.

Syria

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point, which is why our military objectives are not simply the elimination of terrorist networks, training camps and the rest. While this so-called caliphate exists, and while it is able to broadcast its poison and its message, it is—shockingly—attracting people from right across the world. It does not matter which President or Prime Minister I speak to—I had talks with the Prime Minister of Canada last night, for example, and I shall see many others at the Commonwealth Heads of Government conference from all over the world. As long as this so-called caliphate exists, it attracts young people and poses risks to us all.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I thank the Prime Minister for his considered statement, which I very much support. May I ask for his reassurance that the fantastic work in Iraq of the men and women of the Royal Air Force over the past year and more, including most recently at Sinjar in supporting troops on the ground, will not be diluted by any action that we take?

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s support. He asks an important question about the additional resources that would be brought into play if we were to go ahead. That is exactly what we would do. Action would principally be a combination of our Typhoon and Tornado jets, and we will want to continue what we are doing in Iraq while doing more in Syria as well.

National Security and Defence

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right to say that the partnerships that we formed with the defence industry and the aerospace industry are the basis of a long-term plan to work with them, and they can now see our long-term commitments on defence spending. We want to see more British steel procured for Government expenditure such as this. Almost all of the 82,000 tonnes involved in the carrier programme was sourced from British steel, and I very much hope that that can be the case with these future procurements as well.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

The global challenges research and Ross funds are superb ideas of the Prime Minister’s. Can we get on with them, please?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s support. He is very knowledgeable about these issues, and I am glad he thinks we made the right choices.

European Council

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Monday 19th October 2015 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I welcome the $222 million additional contribution to the World Food Programme. I also welcome the approach of our hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Richard Harrington), who is getting a real grip on the issue of refugees. May I ask that he be given whatever support he needs to hasten the movement of refugees who are indeed vulnerable from the camps around Syria?

[The Prime Minister]

I can certainly give my hon. Friend that assurance. Let me make a serious point to the bishops. To those organisations that want to help us to house, clothe, feed, school and look after these 20,000 people I say please help us to provide the very best welcome we can. I am sure the Church can play an important role in that.

Syria: Refugees and Counter-terrorism

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

Obviously, we will start with the use of the aid budget, which covers the first year, and then the committee, to be chaired by the Home Secretary and the Communities Secretary, will look at what more needs to be done to make sure that these people can be properly looked after.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

May I warmly thank the Prime Minister for his decision and will he join me in thanking, alongside the Kurdish Regional Government, the people of Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Turkey and other countries that have taken in millions, supported by the UK and other countries, over the past four years?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to praise those countries. They have borne a huge burden in terms of the people they have taken in and looked after. We must go on supporting them and the work they do.

Tunisia, and European Council

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Monday 29th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I assure my hon. Friend that we are talking to the Tunisian authorities right now; the Home Secretary is in Tunisia talking to her opposite number, to make sure that our offer of help with security is taken on board. I think it very important that it is.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that the bravery of UK and Tunisian citizens alongside each other is a sign that terror cannot win if Governments show a similar resolve both to fight it together and to provide the hope of which he has spoken?

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This will take resolve, patience and determination among Governments and people.

G7

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Lady makes a very important point. Sepp Blatter’s track record on these things is very disappointing. Sepp Blatter has said he is going to resign, and in my view he should get on and resign. The organisation needs new leadership and needs to be cleaned up, and the sooner that starts the better.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Did my right hon. Friend receive any indication from the other leaders about when they will meet their clear commitments to overseas development assistance at 0.7% of gross national income?

[The Prime Minister]

For the first time in a number of G7s and G8s, we actually got the 0.7% commitment back into the text, so it is clear and there for all to see. I would argue that it is not just right for Britain from a moral standpoint, but that it actually increases our standing in the world that we can point out that we have kept our promises and were able to use that money to enhance not only the economic standing of those countries, but our own security as well.

Food Banks

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Two or three weeks ago I had the honour of co-chairing the launch of a report entitled “Emergency Use Only”, compiled by the Trussell Trust, Oxfam, the Child Poverty Action Group and the Church of England. It is a balanced and thoughtful report and chimes very much with my own experience as a constituency Member of Parliament.

As time is short, I shall outline just some of the points made by those organisations. They began by considering what had caused the increasing use of food banks and they concluded that it was due to an acute income crisis. There could be a number of reasons for that crisis. The word “complexity” has rightly been used a great deal today. The income crisis could be due to factors connected with employment, or unemployment. It could be due to a change in family circumstances. But it could be due to the benefits system, and it clearly is in a number of cases. The system is complex, people have had to experience long waiting times, and there has often been a lack of clear information about why people have been sanctioned and what they must do to remove those sanctions.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

I have had to sign on myself, and I remember waiting until I was in dire straits financially before I went and did that. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that 16 days is far too long for someone to wait before receiving jobseeker’s allowance?

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I would agree that in many circumstances it is probably too long. Circumstances will be different for different people, but for some people it most certainly is too long.

I want to consider what we should be doing about this situation. There has been criticism of the Department for Work and Pensions. I want to make it clear that most staff in DWP do an excellent job, and most DWP staff in my constituency really do try to help the people who come before them—not everybody, but we are all human beings.

First, we should improve access to short-term benefit advances. I think the Government recognise that. I hope they will do something about it and make it clearer how people can access those advances more readily. Secondly, we should look at sanctions policy and practice. Some of the instances that have been highlighted to me of how people have been sanctioned seem, frankly, to be over the top and in some cases ridiculous—in some cases perfectly justified, but in many cases I have questioned that.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman may be aware that the Work and Pensions Committee has decided to conduct an inquiry into inappropriate sanction use because of our significant concerns about that.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

There have been cases where people have had medical appointments, for example, which they cannot avoid, and so could not go to sign on, so there needs to be a bit more flexibility, while not taking nonsense from people who try to get away with things. Most of these people are not trying to get away with it at all, however.

Thirdly, the report recommends that we should improve the employment and support allowance regime, ensuring that claimants are not left without income for long periods. Fourthly, the local welfare assistance scheme is currently under review after a challenge. I urge the Government to ensure that the funding is ring-fenced, and that local authorities are not required to absorb it into their budgets, as many will find that difficult. We need that money to be ring-fenced locally for the coming financial year. I hope the Minister can respond on that, or at least indicate when we are going to hear about that.

I agree that food banks should not become a readily accepted part of formal provision. Clearly, there will always be people who get into difficulties. Being the son of a vicar in London, I remember that people would frequently come to the doorstep and ask for food. That is always the case—people do get into difficulties—but food banks should not be part of a readily accepted formal system for the long term.

The report chimes with the report presented last week which colleagues wrote. The Government should take the evidence and the recommendations seriously. Some of the recommendations should not be difficult to implement; it should merely be a matter of instructing DWP offices what they should, and should not, do in terms of sanctions.

This debate is extremely important. I am very glad that it has taken place today. I hope that Members on both sides of the House will do their utmost to ensure we improve the current situation, but ultimately it is up to the Government to look at the ways in which they can do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

It is a pleasure, Mr Speaker, to follow the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman), who represents the city where my husband grew up. I am familiar with the type of poverty that he described, as my husband grew up in a two-up, two-down council house in a neighbourhood very similar to the one that he represents. Like many Government Members, we are absolutely able to relate to and represent the sort of community that he represents. I am sure we all share the horror and shock at the fact that many people need to go to food banks in the 21st century in one of the wealthiest countries in the world. We are united in our desire to help people out of poverty and help them stand on their own feet to secure a sustainable life.

I find the tenor of this debate unbearably disappointing, after doing so much careful work with colleagues across the House on the all-party parliamentary group. Everyone has said that the work was thoughtful and considered, and it has been much referenced. The key finding of that report was well articulated by the Archbishop of Canterbury: this issue is so great and has been going on for so long that it needs to rise above party politics. It needs a considered, all-party approach, but this debate has thoroughly let down the people in our constituencies who have to go food banks. It thoroughly lets down the hundreds and thousands of volunteers who give their time so freely.

The Opposition had the opportunity to hold a debate granted by the Backbench Business Committee. They did not have to pick an Opposition day to discuss such an issue. I shall leave my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) to discuss the APPG findings, and in the time available I want to discuss what is going on in my constituency. For well over a year, volunteers from my team have gone to each session in the three food banks in my constituency. I represent one of the poorest regions in the country, so I understand why people use food banks. We are helping those volunteers to get to the underlying reasons why people use food banks and we are helping those people to get back on their feet. That was a key recommendation in the APPG report.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

Does my hon. Friend agree that a key point about food banks and the important work that they do is that it is not just about the distribution of food? It is about listening to problems and giving advice, pointing people in the right direction, as well as providing food.

[Sarah Newton]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I know that the volunteers at the food bank really welcome the volunteers from my team, who provide such important advice in getting to the underlying reasons why people are there. We can help with issues relating to benefits, employment, housing and debt, among many others, because there is a huge variety of issues. By working with DWP locally and Cornwall council, as well as with employers and civil society, we can help a great many people access the available help so that they can deal with those issues and get themselves back on their own two feet, which is exactly what they want to do. Nobody wants to end up at a food bank, but some people at some time in their lives will need a great deal of help to help themselves. Although the state of course has a role to play, nothing will ever replace the kindness and generosity of somebody freely giving their time to help a person in need.

Oral Answers to Questions

Jeremy Lefroy Excerpts

Wednesday 19th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Maude]

I have no idea what that was all about, but I am sure it can be pursued through different channels.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

T3. My constituents Callum Brogan and Parvathi Thara have been selected as National Citizen Service leaders for 2014-15, and have told me how much the NCS means to them. Will my hon. Friend tell me his future plans for the NCS?

[The Minister for Civil Society (Mr Rob Wilson)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his work with his local NCS, and all Members across the House who also take an interest in the programme. I wish his two constituents the best of luck next year as NCS leaders. The programme has consistently demonstrated, through independent evaluations, that it delivers more capable, confident and engaged young people, and up to £6.10 in benefits for every £1 spent. It continues to grow and it saw its 100,000th participant this summer.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Prime Minister]

First, no one who commits crimes in Northern Ireland should be immune from prosecution. The hon. Gentleman is right to pay tribute to the PSNI, which, over the past few years, has shown just what an extraordinarily capable police force it is. We should remember the conditions in which it was built. He also makes an important point about the National Crime Agency. It is proving itself in operation after operation, not just here in the United Kingdom but right around the world, and it should be playing a part in Northern Ireland. That is a discussion that we need to have with all the parties in Northern Ireland, and I hope that over time we can get everyone to see the sense of having that important organisation there for Ulster.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

Q13. Christians and others are being murdered for their faith in Nigeria, Syria, Iraq, Pakistan and many other countries. Elsewhere, it is a crime to believe anything other than what the state sanctions. Does my right hon. Friend agree that our United Kingdom stands, above all, for freedom of speech, thought and belief, and that we must do all in our power to protect the persecuted and stand up to the persecutors, whoever they are?

[The Prime Minister]

I very much agree with my hon. Friend; he is right to make this such a cause, and to pursue it in the House and outside it. Britain has a proud record of political and religious tolerance—and, of course, of freedom of speech. In our dealings with other countries, we should always make it clear that we believe that to be the right approach. There is an appalling amount of persecution of religious minorities around the world, and some now say that Christians are more persecuted than other religions in too many countries, some of which my hon. Friend has named. We should make sure that this key issue of religious tolerance is at the heart of our foreign policy.