Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

2nd reading
Wednesday 22nd February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention and her continuous interest in Northern Ireland, which I know comes with family connections. She is right to say that we can walk into some of the largest stores in London and find butter from Dromara in my constituency and meat from Moira in my constituency. We are so proud that we make up 3% of the UK’s population and yet we feed almost one in five of the UK through our agrifood produce, which is of the highest quality. Of course, we want to preserve and protect it. We do see the opportunity to expand and grow our business and economy, and we welcome new businesses that are starting up. However, we also need to resolve the difficulties in trade and the barriers that have been erected as a result of the protocol. We believe they are unnecessary, both in terms of protecting the single market of the EU and being harmful to protecting the internal market of the UK.

I welcome the Prime Minister’s earlier comment that we are not talking here about tinkering around the edges. As I said in my party conference speech last year, this is about not just trade across the Irish sea but the application of EU law and how it inhibits our ability to trade within the UK. Fundamentally, that is what needs to be addressed. There is no need for EU law to apply on goods that are not leaving the internal market of the UK. We look to the Government now to bring forward a solution that addresses that issue, but it must go further than that.

On numerous occasions, I have referenced what we call the “democratic deficit”, by which I mean the fact that in Northern Ireland laws apply over which we have no say and on which we have no input. That is simply not acceptable. The Belfast agreement talks about the political and economic rights of the people of Northern Ireland. I would argue strongly that the protocol undermines our political and economic rights—specifically, our rights to legislate for the people who elect us. Although I understand the frustration that the Secretary of State mentioned in his speech about the non-functioning of the Executive, I want to be clear that, if the Executive are to function again, it cannot be on the basis that we are law takers.

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman and I have had a very similar view on the democratic deficit point, because we are both democrats. When the Committee went to Brussels 24 months ago, or thereabouts, the EU was very alert to that issue as well and pointed us in the direction of Norway to see how it deals with these matters—I am not saying that we should overlay that template. Does he see any merit in the way that the EU and the Government of Norway deal with the issue, with the rules applying, although Norway is not a member of the European Union, as a way of ensuring that Norwegian voices are heard? In the same way, the EU would want Northern Irish voices to be heard. Is there anything within that model that he thinks might work or help?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I thank the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee for that point. Of course, Norway is a sovereign country; Northern Ireland is not. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, and it is the Government of the United Kingdom who are the sovereign authority in these matters. We need to look at this not just at the level of our democratic institutions in Northern Ireland, but in relation to the mechanisms for the Government of the United Kingdom to intervene in circumstances where the UK’s internal market, and Northern Ireland’s place within it, is threatened by EU laws—whether they be changes to existing laws or new laws that are introduced. We cannot have a situation where, in respect of our trade across the Irish border, EU laws that apply to that trade impact on our ability to trade within the internal market of the United Kingdom. We certainly cannot have the situation that has arisen with the protocol, where article 6 of the Acts of Union, which govern the economic union of the United Kingdom and our place in it, is impliedly repealed by this House. That must be avoided in the future. In any arrangements, we need to have a safeguard that protects article 6 of the Acts of Union—our right to trade within the internal market of the United Kingdom without barriers being put in our way.

As I draw my remarks to a close, may I say that the reason we are here is that the protocol has undermined the cross-community consensus that is necessary, which my hon. Friend the Member for East Londonderry (Mr Campbell) referenced in his comments, to ensure that we have stable, functioning institutions in Northern Ireland. We are approaching the 25th anniversary of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement, so let us not also lose sight of the successor agreements. We know that at St Andrew’s, at Hillsborough and at Stormont we have had to make changes that improve the way that Northern Ireland is governed. I have heard in recent days clarion calls to look again at the way in which our institutions operate and the principles at the heart of the agreement.

Let me put down a very clear marker on behalf of my party and, I believe, on behalf of Unionism generally: if the road that some want to take on reform is exclusion; if the road that some want to take on reform is majority rule; if the road that some want to take abandons the principle of cross-community consensus in Northern Ireland, that will not be acceptable to my party now or at any stage in the future. It is those principles that are essential to ensure that there is cross-community support for our political institutions in Northern Ireland. I say to the Government that, while we will look at what change can be made to improve the governance of Northern Ireland, we will not countenance the abandonment of that cross-community consensus that is at the heart of our institutions. In that respect, I welcome the comments made by the shadow Secretary of State that that is also the position of the Labour party. I recognise, too, the contributions that Tony Blair and others made to bringing the agreement together and the very delicate balances at the heart of that agreement. They must be protected as we go forward.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope that, within the timeframe that this Bill creates between now and next January for an election, we will see an outcome on negotiations and legislation that will bring fundamental change that will respect and restore Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom and its internal market, that will ensure that we are not in a situation where we are rule takers from the EU and where EU law affects our ability to trade within the United Kingdom. That is not acceptable. Where we trade within our own country, the rules that apply should be those of the United Kingdom. Where we trade with the European Union, the rules that apply should be those of the European Union. That is clear. The protocol does not deliver that, and we need a solution that does.

Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

2nd reading
Monday 23rd January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle). I think we could have waved at each other last week when he was trapped somewhere in Derry/Londonderry as we went over the hills to get there. At least we are all back safely and able to speak in this afternoon’s debate.

Here we go again. Once again, Northern Irish exceptionalism has to come into play and this place has to step in to fill a gap. My hon. Friend the Minister of State was absolutely right when he said that if this were the service being given to his or, indeed, my constituents in North Dorset, not only would questions be asked in the House, but there would be real and tangible anger. People would feel a sense of abandonment. I think there would also be a growing sense of, “We are the public and we need and want public service, but that can only be delivered at the political level. If the politicians we have do not want to do it, give us the opportunity and we will find some who will.”

There will always be ultras in this sort of debate. I well remember talking to an SNP friend from the 2015 intake when the price of oil was absolutely on the floor. I hope you will give me a moment to expand on this point, Madam Deputy Speaker, before you start wondering, “Where the hell is he going with this?” I said, “You must be rather pleased that Scotland decided to stay part of the United Kingdom in the referendum. We’re able to support you and so on because your income as an independent Scotland would have been down as a result of the collapse in oil prices.” A steely glint came into the eye of this person, who must remain nameless—and I can see a steely glint coming into the eye of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Brendan O’Hara), who will speak on behalf of the SNP in this debate—and he said, “Simon, you’re right: the quality of public services would fall. Things would be difficult, and we would have to take difficult decisions, but we would be doing it with an independent Scottish people in an independent Scotland, and that is a price worth paying.”

There will be some who will always say that the price is worth paying—people whose fixed point of principle on one side or the other is so important to them that, no matter how much suffering and pain are occasioned, they believe that it is a price worth paying. I respect those two positions—we always have to have extremes in any debate—but I do detect, as I mentioned in my intervention on the Minister, a growing sense across the communities of Northern Ireland of real anger and disappointment at the failure of politicians to rise to the occasion and to deliver the public service that they expect.

The shadow Secretary of State was right to point out some of the problems that this process, by definition, generates in Northern Ireland. The Government are to be commended for bringing forward the Bill—a common sense act by a sensible Government. But the problem we are going to have—this has been tested in the courts—is that there will be huge reticence among the civil servants. I do not criticise civil servants for that in any way, shape or form, but they will only be able to deliver policies that have already been agreed. If they act ultra vires, there would be a problem because this has been tested in the courts and we know how they ruled on it. Moreover, some of these policies—not all of them—are analogue for a digital age. They do not reflect the cost of living crisis, energy costs and the increase in inflation. They do not reflect the need for fleet action to fill the gaps and address the problems created as a result of covid in education and health, although not exclusively those two things. We need a local Northern Ireland Budget set by Northern Irish politicians in Northern Ireland, reflective of and given cognisance to what they are hearing on their own doorsteps. This process, by its very definition, cannot meet that challenge.

I want to speak briefly about what we, as a Committee, heard from both sides of the community in our visit last week. My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon (Sir Robert Buckland) referenced the very real concerns about the absence of a multi-year settlement. We heard from an organisation whose main funding was from the Northern Ireland Office and Stormont. The NIO part of its funding had been agreed and signed off—it knew it had it. It had no idea at all what it would get out of this budgetary process. No idea at all. Notices were going out to their paid staff to say, “We may have to make you redundant. We hope we won’t have to. We hope we will get the money, but we do not know.”

These are not institutions or organisations teaching origami, advanced flower arranging or contract bridge for the winter months. These are organisations that are stepping in for peace building and community building. They are community-led. They are working to help women who find themselves, as the BBC “Spotlight” programme showed, caught in a cycle of the cost of living, leading them to default to extortionist money lenders of the so-called paramilitaries, only to find they cannot pay the money back. They then have to resort to criminal behaviour, being forced to give sexual favours as payment in lieu or seeing their children brought into the ambit of influence of these paramilitaries as a way of paying off debt.

Those groups, which are so dependent upon the money that this Budget could provide and that Stormont could reflect, now find their work in jeopardy. I encourage female Members of this place to take a growing interest—I know many do, including the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi)— in the impact of the budgetary pressures and other deficiencies in the delivery of public services for the women of Northern Ireland. I make no judgment on the merits, but this House has focused on that issue merely in access to abortion services.

There are a hell of a lot of other things going on—bad things—for the young women of Northern Ireland and, by definition, their young children. They look to those organisations to help them and to protect them, to help them be better parents and to keep their kids on the right path. I think we heard from every single organisation that we met—my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for South Swindon confirms that—the anxiety about the effect that this absolute abdication of the delivery of public service is having and will have.

My hon. Friend the Minister will also know of the potential poor budgetary settlement for the Police Service of Northern Ireland, which will have ramifications across the whole of Northern Ireland. They need to do so much in order to build on those peace foundations laid 25 years ago by the Belfast-Good Friday agreement. They will have to make a choice. Everybody in this House will understand and readily applaud the determination to continue community policing. We all know the merits of good community policing in our own communities, and those are magnified still greater in Northern Ireland. But you will not be able to have good community policing and good criminal policing. Something will have to give. The hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley) was right to say that there is no magic wand, and Stormont would not, by itself, have the answer to all these problems, but—by God!—notwithstanding the absence of that magic wand, are not the people of Northern Ireland hampered yet further by not having in place MLAs who can take to officials and to debates what they hear on the doorsteps, or in their church halls?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

At the beginning of 2020, in “New Decade, New Approach”, the UK Government committed to addressing the issue of police numbers in Northern Ireland, and to helping the Northern Ireland Executive with the funding necessary. The Assembly and Executive were restored on that basis. From early 2020 until October 2022, the UK Government failed to deliver on their commitment. The Treasury would not provide additional funding to enable the recruitment of extra officers, despite that being an NDNA commitment. Does the Chairman of the Select Committee understand our frustration? We keep hearing that if we had the Assembly and the Executive back, we could address those issues, but there are many examples where that is not the case. Not least of those is the issue of the UK internal market and the protection of our place in it—another key part of NDNA that was not delivered. This Parliament and Government are not innocent when it comes to these issues.

[Simon Hoare]

I very much agree, and I wrote to the PSNI only today, following our visit, asking it to put in writing in more detailed terms what we heard last week, so that the Select Committee and this place can better understand the implications of that for policing in all its guises. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman that those on the Treasury Bench need to step up and honour the agreements reached in “New Decade, New Approach”.

I have always felt that the slight fault line is that when there is a problem or impasse, people say, “I know—we’ll have an agreement! It will promise almost all things to all people; there will be something in it for everybody.” Then they say, “But, you know, we didn’t really mean it. We were just using it as a device—a negotiation stepping stone to get us from one side of the river to another,” and, “Oh, you mean that we will be held accountable for delivering that?” I think in this instance they will be. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues from across the parties in Northern Ireland need no lectures or lessons from me on the huge damage that would be done to community safety, and the criminality that would arise, if the PSNI was not functioning. He can rest assured that as soon as I receive that missive from the PSNI, either the Committee will look at the matter still further and go into detail on it, or I will raise the matter with the Treasury and the Secretary of State.

Let me conclude by picking up a thread from the right hon. Gentleman’s intervention—and this points to what was said by the hon. Member for North Antrim. There is no goose that lays golden eggs—we know that—and there is nobody who advocates for the speedy return of Stormont. Nobody is suggesting that that would solve all the problems of Northern Ireland. However, the fact that an organisation cannot do all the good, all the time, should not stop it from trying to do as much good as it can, as long as it is there to do it. That is the fundamental choice.

DUP Members are fed up, and they are fed up with me saying this—I will not even ask them to nod in support, because I know they are. They are nodding, but they do not even know what I am going to say. It is this: Members on the Treasury Bench have made the error of allowing issues and concerns about the protocol to be conflated with the delivery of functioning devolution. They are two very separate work streams. The protocol offends some in Northern Ireland, but the absence of Stormont affects all, and that is what we should be focused on.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

Committee stage
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare]

I agree with my right hon. and learned Friend. We have sought to be equal across the piece. On a personal note, I have some considerable sympathy with those MLAs who have made representations to me over these past eight, nine or 10 hours. They say, “We want to be there. We want to be addressing the issues of health, housing, transport, infrastructure, encouraging inward investment, growing the economy, and making sure that the prosperity dividend of the peace process is felt across the communities of Northern Ireland. Why should we be held up from doing so because of one party?” Indeed, the artist, Sara O’Neill, sent me a message this morning to say that, as the protocol—the principal, legitimate concern of the DUP—is reserved to this place, and nothing to do with Stormont, would it not make more sense for the DUP to boycott Westminster and not Stormont?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

rose—

[Simon Hoare]

I will not give way, because I want to be quick.

That is the principle underlying these amendments. I hope the Secretary of State will use his powers and use them speedily, because a message must be sent to the taxpayers of Northern Ireland that, if no one else is on their side, this place is.

[Tonia Antoniazzi]

I rise to speak to new clause 6 in my name and that of the shadow Secretary of State. I will not repeat too much of what was said on Second Reading; the Labour party has accepted the need for this legislation and, as its measures are so time limited, we do not think it needs significant changes. The Government have been clear that they have used previous Executive Formation Acts as the basis for this Bill. Our probing amendment has taken the same approach and is based on a section the Government put into the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019.

New clause 6 would simply require the Secretary of State to publish a report explaining what progress has been made towards the formation of an Executive in Northern Ireland if the deadlines in the Bill are passed without one being formed. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle) has set out, we need to hear from the Government how they will use the extra time this Bill gives them.

During the oral statement at the beginning of this month, the Secretary of State made several commitments at the Dispatch Box in response to Labour suggestions. We are really happy to work constructively with the Government on how we approach Northern Ireland. He said he would be happy to convene multi-party talks and request that the Foreign Secretary brief the Northern Ireland parties on protocol negotiations. He will know that those would be very constructive steps, but it is not clear if they have been taken yet.

As these debates have shown, there is a wealth of history to learn from on how the Government can move things forward. In the other place, my good friend Lord Murphy, who was very involved in the peace process, had this advice for the Government:

“The one thing I would stress in what I ask the Minister is that the negotiations themselves should be very different from what has occurred over recent months. First, there should be a proper process and plan, and there should be a timetable and a structure. There has been ad hocery, if you like, over recent months”.—[Official Report, House of Lords, 14 November 2022; Vol. 825, c. 760.]

The deadlines in this Bill mean there is no more room for ad hocery. In 2019, when there was no Executive, the Government convened more than 150 meetings in a nine-week period. Similar ambition is needed now, and the House must be kept updated.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I had not intended to speak, but I really cannot allow the comments made by the Chair of the Select Committee to go without challenge. For someone who has chaired a Committee specifically on Northern Ireland for a number of years to state to this House that the protocol has nothing to do with the Northern Ireland Assembly is frankly amazing. The Northern Ireland Executive are responsible for implementing key elements of the protocol. The Assembly has a legislative role in relation to elements of the protocol and a four-year duty to decide whether the provisions of the protocol are to continue or not. For someone who ought to know better to suggest that the Assembly has nothing to do with the protocol is amazing.

[Simon Hoare]

I said the Assembly had nothing to do with the negotiation of the protocol. That is reserved to Ministers in this place. On the implementation, of course, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, but the negotiations are reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. That is the point I made; it was not about the implementation.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The implementation is the problem. The negotiation, hopefully, will deliver the solution. Therefore, we cannot divorce the Assembly from the impact the protocol is having, and it is simply unrealistic to do so.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

2nd reading
Tuesday 29th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Member referred to digitalisation and Fujitsu. I can recall, as I am sure he can, that many on the DUP Bench kept referring during the passage of various bits of legislation to the evolving nature of IT and digital as a way of providing that light, invisible touch to deliver something. The IT companies have caught up and are providing those solutions, or are certainly evolving them with HMRC, so I do not understand why a digital solution suddenly has to be taken off the table as unacceptable.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I am happy to offer clarity to the Chairman of the Select Committee. If the digitisation is used to check the movement of goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland and into the European Union, then yes, anything that makes that a smooth operation and provides the EU with the data it needs to satisfy itself that the integrity of the single market is being protected is fine. But why do my constituents need digitisation for the movement of goods that they purchase at a Sainsbury’s supermarket at Sprucefield in my constituency? Sainsbury’s does not have any supermarkets in the Republic of Ireland; there is therefore no risk of those goods travelling into the Republic of Ireland. Why do we need digital technology to monitor the movement of goods from the Sainsbury’s depot in London to the Sainsbury’s store at Sprucefield?

[Simon Hoare]

I think we all take the point about Sainsbury’s, but may I respectfully say to the right hon. Gentleman that what he says sounds very much like a moving of the goalposts? When he and his party colleagues were advocating invisible, light digital solutions, I paid very keen attention. In all those debates and Select Committee sessions, his party colleagues’ voices were heard, so we all knew the DUP’s position, but I did not hear that distinction being made; it was about a digital solution for everything. It suggests to me that with a digital solution having been on the cusp of delivery, it is now not quite good enough and the goalposts are being moved still further.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I assure the hon. Member that our position has been absolutely consistent. We have said from day one—and this is why we voted against the protocol at the outset—that we do not believe that there should be regulatory barriers on the movement of goods between Great Britain and Northern Ireland when they are remaining within the UK internal market.

I say to the Chairman of the Select Committee that the New Decade, New Approach agreement is very specific. It talks about restoring Northern Ireland’s place within the UK internal market. What does that mean? It means that there should not be regulatory barriers to trade on the movement of goods that travel between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and remain within the United Kingdom. The Democratic Unionist party has never, at any stage, advocated that there should be an Irish sea border on the movement of goods that remain within the UK internal market. That has never been our position.

I simply say to the hon. Member that, yes, I am all for using technology. I have consistently argued that technology can help us where goods are moving through Northern Ireland and into the Republic of Ireland, because that, in essence, is the problem—

Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

2nd reading
Monday 27th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare]

I think it is probably a failure of both sides, but a presumption of, “If I don’t get my own way on everything, I’m going to take my ball off the pitch; I’m going to act unilaterally, off my own bat” is not the way to do it. As a former distinguished Minister at the Northern Ireland Office, my right hon. Friend knows as well as I do that most Northern Ireland outcomes are based on compromise—on give and take, and on finding the place and the path of least resistance.

This has been a failure of statecraft. I do not believe that the Bill passes the international test of necessity. It has to pass all the tests set out in the statute, and it does not. What, then, is this Bill? Is it a bargaining chip to try to browbeat the EU? Is it a bribe to right hon. and hon. Members in the Democratic Unionist party to get back around the table at Stormont?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Simon Hoare]

Let me just finish on what the Bill might be, and then I shall of course give way to the right hon. Gentleman.

Is the Bill a muscle flex for a future leadership bid? To sacrifice our national reputation on the altar of personal ambition would be shameful.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth) made a point on this subject earlier, but as a result of the protocol we have a democratic deficit in Northern Ireland. Many of the laws that now regulate how we trade with the rest of the United Kingdom are made by a foreign entity over which we have no say whatsoever, and our VAT rates are set by that foreign entity. There should be no taxation without representation. I do not need to be bribed to ask for what is the right of my people: democracy.

[Simon Hoare]

That is a point with which I have much sympathy, and which Committee members discussed with the Commission when we were there last December. The Commission is aware of that. Norway has Ministers of its Government in Brussels to discuss such things week in, week out. The EU and, as the right hon. Gentleman will know, Northern Irish business organisations are really keen to identify platforms whereby that democratic deficit can be in some way addressed. I agree with the right hon. Gentleman entirely. I am tempted to say to him, “Don’t shout at me; shout at the Ministers who advocated for the protocol and for us to sign and support it.”

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I welcome the opportunity to speak on Second Reading of this very important Bill. At the outset, it is important to make the point to all right hon. and hon. Members that this is not simply another Brexit-related Bill. Nor is it a technical Bill to remedy problems that have arisen since January 2021, albeit that it will have that effect.

Fundamentally, the Northern Ireland Protocol Bill seeks to finally and fundamentally reset and restore Northern Ireland’s relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom, given the devastating impact of the protocol on the economic, constitutional, social and political life of Northern Ireland over the past 18 months. Many in this House will remember our opposition to the protocol, and it is an honour to follow the former Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May). She rightly flagged up our opposition from the outset to the protocol. It gives me no pleasure to say that we warned that it would be bad for Northern Ireland and that it would not work. That assessment has been more than borne out in reality.

The Northern Ireland institutions were restored in January 2020. The former Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith), is in his place and he was very much involved in bringing about the New Decade, New Approach agreement. At the heart of that agreement was a clear commitment by the UK Government to protect Northern Ireland’s place within the UK internal market, and that it would be respected. On that basis, my party re-entered power sharing.

We kept our side of the bargain and we were patient. We waited and waited for the Government to take action to protect our place in the internal market. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland did refer to measures to be introduced to the United Kingdom Internal Market Act 2020 that would have at least partly dealt with the problem, alongside other measures to be proposed to a Finance Bill, but those measures were not brought forward, so still we waited.

Last July, when I became leader of the party, I warned that if the Government failed to honour their commitment in New Decade, New Approach, we would have a real difficulty, because the consensus that is essential to ensure that power sharing is maintained in Northern Ireland is being undermined.

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman has not said anything up to now that is any way factually challengeable. On the presumption that the Bill secures its Second Reading this evening and begins its parliamentary progress, in the interest of serving those people in Northern Ireland who look to the Executive and Stormont to meet their daily needs, will he instruct his party colleagues who are MLAs to return to the Executive, get it back up and running, discharge their democratic duty, and serve all the communities in Northern Ireland?

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I will come to that point, but I simply ask the hon. Gentleman: if I were to do that, would he then support the Bill? I heard nothing in his contribution to suggest that he would.

Last July, I made it clear that:

“The Irish Sea Border is not just a threat to the economic integrity of the United Kingdom, it is a threat to the living standards of the people of Northern Ireland”,

and so it has proven. The impact of the additional cost of bringing goods from Great Britain to Northern Ireland is contributing to the cost of living situation in Northern Ireland. It is driving up the cost of food in our supermarkets, it is driving up the cost of manufacturing, and it is making it difficult for businesses to operate effectively.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

I am not suggesting that the Bill is perfect. It is rare for legislation that passes this House to be perfect in every sense and not to require subsequent amendment. The benefit of the Bill is that it empowers Ministers to make change where change is necessary to ensure the proper functioning of the UK internal market, which is an entirely valid thing for this Parliament and Government to do.

Furthermore, as a Unionist, I make no apology for saying that it is important to me that the Bill will restore Northern Ireland’s place within the Union. Some right hon. and hon. Members have referred to the rule of law, yet the High Court and the Court of Appeal in Belfast have stated clearly that the protocol subjugates article 6 of the Act of Union, which is an international agreement —it is the fundamental building block of the Union.

Article 6 states clearly that I, as a Northern Ireland citizen and a member of this United Kingdom, have the right to trade freely within my own country and that there should be no barriers to trade between the constituent parts of the United Kingdom. In putting in place the Irish sea border, the protocol has broken article 6 and made me a second-class citizen in my own country, because I do not have the right to trade freely with the rest of the United Kingdom. I am simply asking for my rights as a British citizen.

[Simon Hoare]

indicated dissent.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson]

The Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee shakes his head, but if he found his constituents in a position where they were unable to trade freely with the rest of their own country, he might be as annoyed as I am and he might actually have something to say about it.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

Consideration of Lords amendments
Monday 7th February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

The hon. Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), in a fantastic speech, spoke about the importance of trust in all this. He is absolutely right, and my right hon. Friend the Minister will concur that the overarching objective has to be to rebuild trust between the parties as quickly as possible.

I agree with every word my right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) said. The rule of law is so important. Honouring the rule of law and our international obligations should be the hallmark of any Tory Government—of any Government in this country, I should say, but particularly one of our side. To have that thrown into question when we have willingly signed up to agreements, understanding them perfectly, as the noble Lord Frost confirmed to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee some months ago, and to seek to resile from that now, pretending we did not quite understand what it meant or that we did not think that people would hold us to what we signed up to, shows so much brass neck as to be unspeakable.

I welcome the Lords amendments and their necessity. Thankfully, the Government did not go down the road of double jobbing. Unfortunately, we missed the opportunity to create a joint First Minister. As we all know, in essence the positions are joint—neither the left hand nor the right hand can do anything without the other saying yes or no—and that might be a way to move these things forward.

Yet again, we find ourselves in a situation in which self-service rather than public service has trumped all decisions. What happened last week was, in my judgment, an abdication of responsibility. Rage against the protocol if you will—tear your hair out and rend your clothes about the protocol; go on marches; do what the hell you like—but do not abandon the communities of Northern Ireland.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

The hon. Member should choose his words very carefully when he says to people in Northern Ireland, “Do whatever”—I will not repeat the profane language—“you like.” He talks about the rule of law; does he agree that doing what you like does not include taking up arms or going out and committing acts of violence and that when we use language we should be very careful and precise by what we mean when we say, “Do what you like to oppose the protocol”?

[Simon Hoare]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I refer him to the exchanges among a number of us in the NIAC last summer on that very issue. When I say, “Do what the hell you like,” I am talking about within the rule of law—protest, petition, demonstrate. Of course, nobody is advocating breaking the law and it would be preposterous to suggest that I as a Tory would suggest that.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon made reference to the voluntary sector and those most in need in both and all communities of Northern Ireland. We saw what happened in the last interregnum: health outputs down, education outputs down and infrastructure and housing moving backwards. As always, it is those who are most in need of those services, in all communities, who are going to be hit the hardest. We know where this ends up. It is a diminution of the quality of life of those people who live in Northern Ireland and who, as we move out of covid, are now looking, perfectly legitimately, to their local politicians to craft local solutions to local problems.

Now is not a time for self-service; now is a time for us all, with our shoulders to the wheel, to serve those communities that, for too many decades, have suffered disproportionately as fellow citizens of the United Kingdom. I do hope that this is a temporary impasse, that the burden is taken up again and that public service is recognised as important. I suggest that if it is not, those communities will have their say in the ballot box in the coming weeks.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 Section 7

Debate between Jeffrey M Donaldson and Simon Hoare

Monday 30th September 2019 Commons Chamber

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

May I thank my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the tone he adopted in his opening remarks? Like him, I will divide my remarks into two parts. First, I will make a few casual, general observations. I have seen the video clip that the Northern Ireland Office has put on Twitter today, marking nearly 1,000 days since there was last an Executive at Stormont. Clearly, that is a running sore and it just goes on. Although I usually travel in an optimistic frame of mind, Brexit is clearly the elephant in the Chamber and in Northern Ireland. It is hard, if not impossible, to see how Stormont could get up and running prior to 31 October, but I wish the Secretary of State and all parties well.

I say to Opposition Members and, indeed, to all political parties in Northern Ireland that from talking and listening to people and from reading what they say, my hunch is that we seem to have got incredibly hung up on process, whereas real people in the real world who are concerned about the delivery of vital local public services just want to see them delivered. Whether the issue is Brexit or the restoration of Stormont, the public have a limited reservoir of patience. When it is drained, that will be it—there will be no more reservoir on which to draw. That patience is running thin and people are not necessarily interested in the blame game politics of “He said, I said, they said, we would, they might, we didn’t”. The message is clear, just as it is on other things in this topsy-turvy political age: “Either make progress or get out of the way and let those who are interested in making progress have a go.” I think we are close to that point.

[Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson (Lagan Valley) (DUP)]

I thank the Chairman of the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs for giving way. He makes a valid point. The question is: who do we give way to? As currently constituted, the institutions cannot have a power-sharing Government without their being cross-community and representing a majority of both nationalists and Unionists. That implies that direct rule is the only other option. May I connect Brexit with the absence of Stormont and suggest to the hon. Gentleman that if we leave the European Union on 31 October, so many decisions will need to be made as a consequence that we will have no alternative but to reintroduce direct rule?

[Simon Hoare]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for those observations. I made that point in a radio interview in Northern Ireland last week. He may have heard me take my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to task last week. As we get closer to 31 October, the civil servants in Northern Ireland are clearly doing their best. They are straining every sinew to try to keep the show on the road, but they can only do so, as the right hon. Gentleman well knows, within the confines of public and local policies that enjoy the imprimatur of previous Executives. I thought that the welter of pressing needs told against the early Prorogation. There was plenty that this House could have been getting on with, at least to provide some form of legislative safety net were Stormont not to be up and running by 31 October. There is no point in those on the Treasury Bench waking up on 29 October and saying, “Oh gosh—the 31st looks a bit close. What on earth are we going to do?”

Let us be frank: there could well be, with or without a deal post 31 October, issues that will need to be mitigated. If issues will need to be mitigated on the mainland, by golly they will also need to be mitigated in Northern Ireland, enjoying as it does—although “enjoying” is a pejorative term, I am sure—what will be the only land border with the European Union. We will need to be incredibly fleet of foot. I am not sure whether civil servants in Northern Ireland are currently sufficient in number to be able to deal with the scale of the issue, but they, coupled with local government, will need every tool at their disposal to ensure that normal life can continue for the taxpayers and residents of Northern Ireland. It is not for the lack of chivvying by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but there seems to be an incredible disconnect between the strategy of No. 10 and the Cabinet Office vis-à-vis Brexit GB and their strategy vis-à-vis Brexit Northern Ireland, which cannot be allowed to stand. Greater urgency is required.

I turn briefly to the subject of the motion and the report tabled by the Secretary State: historical institutional abuse. I concur with and underscore entirely the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Maria Caulfield), a fellow member of the Committee, and of the hon. Member for North Down (Lady Hermon) and the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds). Had this scale and range of abuse, over such a period of time, happened in North Dorset or anywhere else in England, it would have been rectified and sorted out by now.

I share the concerns expressed specifically, although not exclusively, by the hon. Member for North Down. Opaque language may have been the order of the day in the Secretary of State’s recent job as Government Chief Whip, but a Bill dealing with this issue, this running sore, must be announced in the Queen’s Speech and enacted before Christmas—not introduced before the end of the year but done and dealt with by the end of the year, subject to Stormont not being back up and running.

I make this wager with my right hon Friend, and luckily it is for somebody else to take cognisance of this point: unless a Bill is announced in the Queen’s Speech, my hunch is that some of us would find great difficulty in voting for the Gracious Speech when the vote is called. We do not want to add to the catalogue of Government defeats—well, not all of us do—and I am heartened by what the hon. Member for Rochdale (Tony Lloyd) said. This is not a contentious piece of legislation.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Staffordshire Moorlands (Karen Bradley) is right that the devil will be in the detail, and that getting the process and the rubric correct and beyond challenge is important, but people should listen, as the Committee has, to Mr Jon McCourt or Margaret McGuckin talk about these issues and the people they represent. I know my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has certainly met Margaret, and I believe she calls him Mr Darcy—I do not know whether that elates him or not, but it is the only light moment in this sad and sorry episode.

In great part, it was organs of the state that put these young children in those institutions where they were abused. Some had mothers who, for a whole variety of reasons—many of which we have heard and which do not need going over again today—put their children and young babies in what they thought was a place of safety that would provide a gateway to a better life. If they had known what we now know, they would not have taken that route.

Officialdom did not know but, beyond the tight kernel of my right hon. and hon. Friends who are Ministers in the Department, I am not certain whether that historical social and special responsibility has been taken into account. I hope that the business managers and others have heard the very strong sense of feeling and the drive for justice. Many of these people are elderly, and many of them are vulnerable. They feel as though they are being slightly brushed under the carpet and ignored, like an eccentric great aunt at a wedding: there but not really engaged, and hoping they will go home before the reception finishes.

These victims of abuse are going nowhere until justice is delivered in full, and neither are their champions in this place, because to do anything other would be a failure in our duty.