Victims and Prisoners Bill (Second sitting)

Janet Daby Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 20th June 2023 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

We have eight minutes and two Members left.

[Janet Daby (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

Q Earlier this morning, Rachel de Souza, the Children’s Commissioner, said that where children are victims or have been exploited, their experience with the police often makes them feel like criminals, so they often do not come forward. She was suggesting that in the victims code there should be an amendment to address children as victims specifically. Do you share her view? May we have your general feedback on that, please?

Caroline Henry: I would like to give some written evidence on that, if that is okay, because I have a lot to say.

[Janet Daby]

Fair enough.

Sophie Linden: On the face of it, that sounds extremely interesting. I would be in favour of looking at how the Bill focuses on children. We know that trust and confidence—coming forward to the police—can be a real issue for young people and children. I would be interested in looking at the Bill to see what it means for children, where that compliance fits in—with the youth offending teams, which is partly there—and how the duty is enforced and monitored.

DCC Barnett: Again, the code defines victims, and that includes children and young people. Whether that is something specifically around how you might define a child when you first deal with them, I do not know. I would have to give that a little more consideration. I will put it in some written evidence. I am not totally sure that I understand exactly where Rachel de Souza is coming from, but perhaps I can understand that a bit more first.

[Maggie Throup (Erewash) (Con)]

Q My question is mainly for Caroline, but I am happy for the other two witnesses to give their thoughts as well. This follows on from something you said earlier, Caroline, about last week’s incident in Nottingham and how some victims—a lot of people—do not know that they are victims. I raised this in the Chamber; that incident had an impact in my constituency, it being so close. You hesitated earlier about how we would cope with that. Do you think that the Bill is adequate for those hidden victims? How do we ensure that they are aware that there is a victims code? What more can be done, and should we do it through this legislation or other mechanisms?

Caroline Henry: The definition of victim here would not include indirect victims who were not a direct witness of, or directly impacted by, the crimes that happened in Nottinghamshire last week, but they so need support too. As a commissioner, I have commissioned Notts Victim Care to be there to pick up the calls from people who are grieving and are traumatised, even though they were not directly impacted. It is having such an impact and such a ripple across our city, and not just our city: people have gone home from university and are all over the country. They might not think of themselves as victims, but what happened last week has made them so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rob Butler]

Thank you very much.

[Janet Daby]

Q You said that victims find it useful to meet with prosecutors. I accept that and understand why, but do you support measures to offer free legal advice to rape victims?

Jan Lamping: It is important that where victims feel that they need to have legal representation, they are able to obtain it. We would certainly engage on any proposals in that respect. We understand that issues relating to disclosure of personal information in particular cause anxiety for victims, and while we apply the law as it stands, we would engage on any proposals regarding independent legal advice.

[Janet Daby]

Thank you.

[Jess Phillips]

Q I want to pick you up on something you said about Operation Soteria—that victims had found the process of meeting prior helpful. Were those victims supported by another service? You mentioned victims and their support services. Victims were not coming to you solely on their own; they were coming with an ISVA or support of some kind.

Jan Lamping: I was explaining about my personal experience in the areas I had worked.

--- Later in debate ---

[Siobhan Baillie]

Q Is it the experience of the CPS that, even with the guidelines as they are now and the need to give good reason effectively, it is still providing a deterrent to victims pursuing their cases?

Jan Lamping: It is difficult to know from a CPS point of view, because we deal with the cases that are referred to us by the police. We do not know what has been a deterrent before that in terms of what the police have asked for, so I do not think that that is something I can comment on. It could be a deterrent, yes.

[Janet Daby]

Q How would you view your role as working with an independent public advocate? Have you given that any thought?

Jan Lamping: It is obviously a new concept, and we are interested in what the detail will be. We can certainly see the benefit from the point of view of the people affected by these terrible incidents. There are some things that we would like to work through. Prosecutors would have responsibilities for speaking to, for example, bereaved families in any event, and there are some concerns about whether there might be duplication.

I know there is mention that it could be a community representative who is the independent advocate. That may be fine, but it may be that a community representative does not represent everybody in that community. There are things to be worked through, but we understand why that is being suggested and are certainly happy to work on the detail.

[Sir Oliver Heald]

Q When you are prosecuting a case, clearly you have to have the conduct of it. To what extent does that limit what might be possible?

Jan Lamping: In what sense?

--- Later in debate ---

[Anna McMorrin]

We have been waiting eight years for it.

Rachel Almeida: I feel like the level of scrutiny given to the first part has not been allowed for the other two parts. We obviously suggest that that should happen.

[Janet Daby]

Q Good afternoon. I am really interested in what Duncan and Gabrielle were saying about offenders having a history of abuse—being victims themselves—and how that can affect them and lead them to go on to abuse. What would it be helpful to have in this Bill to address that? What you have brought to light is very personal. It is often not spoken about, but it is realised, so I am really grateful that you mentioned that. What could or should be done to improve the Bill in relation to what you just said? I understand that that is a big question, but even if you just open up a dialogue, that is fine, too.

Duncan Craig: When we talk about paedophilia and child sexual abuse, about 87% of paedophilic offenders are victims, but only about 3% of victims ever go on to offend, so vampire syndrome—the idea that if you have been bitten by a vampire, you will go on to become a vampire—does not exist. All the research shows that that does not stack up.

In my service—I am only talking about 15 north-west prisons, but some have category offenders—I am not necessarily interested in dealing with the offenders and their crime; I am interested in the root cause. My organisation sadly lost one of our survivors the other day. One of the things that I will carry with me about him is that I met him in prison—I was his therapist in prison—and we dealt with a lot of his experiences. I fought for the service to go into that prison because nobody was interested in dealing with his victimhood; they were interested only in dealing with his perpetration of the crimes he committed. That is right, but there is something here that nobody is talking about or dealing with. He was in a small group of people I approached as a survivor, as a therapist, as the chief exec of an organisation. I had a challenge from a couple of our service users, who said, “What are you doing, Duncan, about reducing offending?” and I could not tell them. What we are really good at in victim services—Jess, you know this from all your time in domestic abuse—is cleaning up, but when are we going to stop cleaning up and start preventing?

With part 3 of this Bill, we could do some incredible work in prisons and with prisoners around prevention so that, when people come back out of prison and into the community, there is a better sense of self and better support. What happened was only because I have an amazing commissioner in NHS England North who just took a punt, quite frankly—I am sure there is a proper word for that in commissioning, but it was a punt—and actually, 897 prisoners are now on our waiting list, they are being seen and are dealing with the things they needed to deal with.

Finally, when I started talking to Michael and said, “I think we need to do something; I think we need to do something about that 87%. What do we do about those men?”—they nearly are all men—“How do we make sure that they are not going back out and offending against women, children and other males? Maybe we need to deal with their root cause.” He said to me, “Everything in my body says no. Why should we deal with them?” And then I think, “Maybe if somebody had dealt with the guy who abused you, Dunc—maybe you would not have been abused.” It hits right there in the middle, and I think that this is a phenomenal opportunity for us to not just do stuff around victims but to prevent us from even having victims in the first place. That was a very long answer; apologies.

[Janet Daby]

Thank you, Duncan. Sorry about your loss, as well.

Duncan Craig: Thank you.

Gabrielle Shaw: Great question. It is a hard act to follow.

To answer your question, there is an opportunity to name it in the very least. That would be such a great start here—to acknowledge the facts that Duncan just set out, and the proportions, and say it is a public health issue and really go hard on the public health and prevention aspect. Otherwise, we all know what is going to happen. If the comms message gets twisted, it will be “Oh gosh, everybody who has been abused as a child is going to go on to become a perpetrator.” We need to be really careful about how we message that. It could be about keeping the generalities—acknowledging the fact that a lot of abuse does come on to being part of a perpetrator—but talking about why we need to deal with it with money, resources, therapy and with all those things we know about, because that prevents and it makes people safer in the future.

At NAPAC, on our telephone support line, we hear from tens of thousands of survivors with many different stories and backgrounds. Survivors are not a homogenous group—there are so many individual stories out there—but I can say that there are key themes that come through. Probably the No. 1 key theme that we hear from survivors is “I wish it had not happened to me and I do not want it to happen to anybody else.” I do not purport to speak on behalf of survivors, but I can relay that theme to you as a Committee and help to tie that to your question. Put it in there; make it count.

[Janet Daby]

Rachel, did you want to say anything or are you okay?

Rachel Almeida: I am okay.

[Siobhan Baillie]

Q Duncan, you mentioned that you were training police officers. Have you seen an improvement in the police service in terms of understanding and working with victims, and even knowing about the code, over the years you have been working?

Duncan Craig: I did, pre-pandemic. I used to go to the local training school. For a specially trained officer—an old-fashioned Nightingale officer—the 999 call comes in, and they go and lock down the scene, with the scene even being the individual themselves. They used to get five days’ training in forensics and so on, and they would have a whole day with me on working with male victims, because everything else that was talked about was around female victims. Then, on the very last day they would do role play with an actor and get scored. Effectively, it was a bit like an exam.

Now, I go to a university. I have done two classes now. I am really angry about this: in the first class, as I was telling my story—a story that I have told for seven or eight years—an individual put their hand up. There is a picture of me in the room where it happened. They put their hand up and said, “Yes, but do you not think that you should push them all off a cliff?” [Interruption.] I had exactly the same reaction as you; I was absolutely astonished. In seven or eight years, I have never had to kick anybody out of a classroom and I have never been surprised by it. It could just be a one-off, so I spoke to the tutors and said, “Just watch that.” Two weeks later, I went back to the same university, where a new cohort of police officers were being trained, and we kind of got the same thing. I do not know what has happened, other than we have moved from police training school to university, but I am terrified. I am terrified about what we are getting and what I am seeing on the ground now. There used to be a moment in time when I had done some training with every single police officer in my force, and I was really confident. I have zero confidence at the moment, and it is frightening.

Gabrielle Shaw: I come at this from two perspectives. What we hear through the NAPAC support line, from thousands of survivors, is that some of them have disclosed to the police. Of course, people who contact NAPAC are a self-selecting cohort, but over the past five years the number of positive experiences relayed by survivors to NAPAC has risen. I think that is no coincidence, because I know at a national level—I will come to this in a second—there has been a huge drive by national policing to improve response to childhood sexual abuse. The hydrant programme has done a lot of work on this, as well as College of Policing and the NPCC. There has been a huge national drive.

As Duncan described, the issue is how that national drive, the national guidance and all those really good intentions translate down to force level. I can hear the chief constables now saying there is a squeeze on the training budgets and so on, but we need to maintain that pressure and the good intentions that have set at a national policing level, to ensure that trickles down properly. What Duncan described is not a rare or isolated experience at all. There is good practice as well, but there needs to be more consistency to get that real drive across all levels.

Duncan Craig: I am not overly concerned about the current detectives at the moment, because we have a great relationship with them, but they are about to leave because they have done their service. It is exactly like the prevention bit—the bit that I am extremely concerned about is the new people.