Badger Cull

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Thursday 25th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[Sir James Paice]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Several Members, including the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) who introduced the debate, referred to cattle-to-cattle transmission, which is of course a major factor—nobody denies it—that has to be properly addressed. The tranche of new measures to which I referred a minute ago is the third tranche; it started under my watch, but I had already introduced two tranches of much tougher measures. To be honest, the previous Government had done the pre-movement testing as well. The suggestion that cattle-to-cattle movement is not being addressed is nonsense. The other measures are hugely important, but we come down to the fact that no country in the world has got rid of bovine TB—I mean get rid of, not just reduce—without addressing the reservoir of relevant wildlife. In this country, as in Ireland and France, this means badgers.

[Angela Smith]

The right hon. Gentleman’s point has been made repeatedly over the last few days, but does he not agree that we are not comparing like with like here, in that the methodology used in other countries to deal with the problem has been quite different?

[Sir James Paice]

I accept that, not least because the reservoir involves different species of animals. Clearly, we do not deal with badgers in the same way as we deal with wild buffalo in the Northern Territory of Australia. That is blatantly clear, but if we are to address the issue of the reservoir of badgers, there are only two ways of proceeding. Either we vaccinate them—I shall come back to that—or we have to cull them.

I hope that the whole House accepts that no Minister from any political party wants to court the unpopularity or, indeed, face the security challenge caused by this issue. Let us be frank: I, the Minister, other Ministers and officials are all under special security arrangements because of the threats from a small minority of opponents. None of us wants any of that. If there were a better way, we would adopt it. To pretend that we are somehow not interested in vaccines is, I have to say, absurd. The fact is that we have a licensed injectable badger vaccine; no one has mentioned that the Government are making some money available to pay for it where people want to use it. If wildlife trusts want to continue to roll it out, that is fine, but the costs of rolling it out on a national scale are so incredible that I think it is wrong to suggest it is a panacea.

The hon. Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) referred to an oral vaccine for badgers. We believed this would be likely for many years, but I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that, for two reasons, it is now further away than ever. First, the intellectual property will be difficult to get hold of; it is owned by a New Zealand institution. More importantly, the promising first tests have never been repeated. All the tests carried out showed much worse problems. That is because the vaccine is being destroyed in badgers’ acidic stomachs.

On cattle vaccine, I can tell the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion that, yes, it has been developed and we know, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said the other day, that it is not very effective, although it has an element of effectiveness—about 60%. Yes, too, the DIVA test—differentiation of infected from vaccinated animals—is well on the way to being perfected. The hon. Lady is right about all that, but neither of them is licensed or officially proved and they still have to go through all the processes, which takes time, however much effort is put into it. What the hon. Lady seriously underplayed, however, is the European context when it comes to the cattle vaccine. I can assure her that, almost from day one of taking office, or within a matter of weeks, I pressed the Commission on this issue. I remember talking to the then Commissioner John Dalli, from D G SANCO, who said, “When you have your licensed vaccine and your licensed DIVA test, then we will start thinking about it, but don’t forget that it is only you, Ireland and possibly France that want this. All the other member states will be against it. Lifting the ban will take many years, so the question is what can be done in the meantime.”

Dangerous Dogs

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Wednesday 14th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. I am jumping into specifics, but as far as the issue of commercial dog walkers is concerned—although I confess I do not have a particular note or brief on the subject—I do not think that anybody could dissent from what he has said. It defies belief that anybody could be in control of 13 dogs, however competent they were. No doubt somebody will write to me and say that that is possible, but I suspect that not many people would agree with them.

Having a dog that is out of control is clearly an issue of public safety. It is not fair on the dog if it is not being properly cared for and has not been trained to behave appropriately. Sometimes, one can witness examples of dogs that appear to be out of control and one wonders what care they are getting and whether the treatment the dog is receiving is fair.

My hon. Friend the Member for Epping Forest referred to the Smith case and she properly made the point that the owner of the dog has been prosecuted successfully and convicted. I fully understand her concern about the penalties imposed, but it demonstrates that even when an offence is committed, it does not always force people to do the right thing. I fully understand her comments about the penalty, but I must say that we have not had any pressure from the courts to increase the penalties. However, I fully understand and endorse her concerns.

I am also very much aware that I and other Ministers have said that we are close to making an announcement on a package of measures designed to tackle irresponsible dog owners. I confess that it is a matter of personal disappointment that I have not been able to make that announcement before today. I had very much hoped that that would be possible but I am afraid it has not been. If hon. Members want to intervene on me about this issue, I shall treat them with my usual courtesy, I hope, but for obvious reasons I will not be in a position to enlighten the House in great detail about what might be in the package. I know that many Members in the House and people outside it await our announcement with keen interest.

[Angela Smith]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Paice]

I have committed myself now, so of course I will.

[Angela Smith]

The Minister made it impossible for me not to intervene. Could he at least tell us whether we will get a package of measures that will fit into existing legislation or whether there will be an offer of primary legislation in the Queen’s Speech?

[Mr Paice]

Perhaps the hon. Lady will enlighten me at some point as to what I have to do to make sure that she does not intervene. She will know that I cannot presage what will be in the Queen’s Speech. All I can say is that we are looking at measures that can be brought into play and are enforceable and effective. She cannot tempt me to go further than that in giving the detail.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Paice]

Yes, of course. I am happy to confirm to my hon. Friend that we will look at that issue. My immediate concern is the definition of “commercial dog walker”, but I do not want to sound negative.

I apologise to the House for not being able to be more precise, and I hope that we can be in the not too distant future, but we want to be clear that we are not producing changes with a load of unintended consequences that we shall live to regret. We will continue to work up our proposals both to reduce dog attacks and on antisocial behaviour involving dogs, including the whole issue of trophy dogs and their use for intimidation. They might never attack anybody, but if they are intimidatory that can be just as antisocial.

We clearly want to promote responsible dog ownership, and I emphasise that the Government believe that the vast majority of dog owners are responsible, but we need to address the minority.

[Angela Smith]

I thank the Minister for giving way and for his very full response this evening. Can he confirm that any announcement will be made by way of a statement to the House, rather than through a written ministerial statement?

[Mr Paice]

The hon. Lady asks me a question above my pay grade. I do not make those decisions, much as I should like to, but I hear what she says, and what she urges us to do.

What I can say is that once proposals have been finalised we will announce measures to tackle the issues that we have all discussed today, to make our communities safer and to make those who own dogs accept and respect the responsibility that is placed upon them partly for public safety and partly, as I said earlier, for dog welfare, which is an equal part of the matter.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Thursday 1st March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

My hon. Friend has put his finger on a tremendous trauma affecting much of the British countryside—the spread of bovine TB. As he knows, we have announced that badger culling will be piloted in two areas in the early autumn, and we have invited two groups from those areas to submit applications to Natural England. I must emphasise, however, that badger culling is just one part of a much wider, comprehensive package of measures such as further restrictions of cattle movements and testing, including pre-movement testing.

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

T5. My hon. Friend the Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) and I secured a consultation on dog control from the previous Government, on the basis that a comprehensive overhaul of the legislation was required. That was well over two years ago. Will the Government commit to that approach, or will they choose to introduce piecemeal reforms, which many now believe is the preferred option?

[Mr Paice]

In answer to an earlier question, I said that the Department will be making its proposals known very shortly. I will not pre-empt that announcement. The Home Office will also be announcing the results of its own consultation on the human aspect of the ownership of dogs as weapons or trophy dogs.

Badgers and Bovine TB

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Westminster Hall

[Mr Paice]

No, I am sorry; I cannot give way.

I must emphasise to those hon. Members who challenged on the shooting issue that shooting wildlife, whether they agree with it or not—and let us not get into the emotions of it—is a common practice. Foxes and deer are commonly shot, and the surrounding animal communities are not shot in the process.

[Angela Smith]

rose—

[Mr Paice]

No; I am not giving way.

Secondly, we propose that badgers be attracted to a baited area where it would safe to shoot, and trained marksmen—not trained by farmers, as one hon. Member said, but trained and authenticated by external bodies—would do the shooting. There is a lot of emotion involved. The hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), who has left the Chamber, spoke a diatribe of nonsense about this issue.

On perturbation, the ISG rightly based its conclusions on its studies, from which two fundamental points arose. First, we have addressed the costs issue by proposing that farmers do the work; it is up to them. The decision whether it is worth it for farmers is not for the Government to make; it is for the individual farmers. Secondly, we have clearly stipulated that we will expect those groups of farmers to tell us what they will do to minimise perturbation.

There are several issues. First, we believe that the applications will be for a much bigger area than 150 sq km and that it is more likely to be 300 sq km. That means that the perturbation zone will be proportionately smaller, which helps considerably. Secondly, we will encourage and expect farmers to bring forward hard boundaries that badgers cannot cross. They will be able to use buffer ring vaccination, if they choose to do so. As an aside, I should say that we wholly support vaccination, using the current methodology, if people want to do it.

The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) made a sound speech, although I did not agree with all its conclusions, but the issue of borders is clearly dealt with. Tuberculosis is not an issue for Scotland, which does not have it. There is virtually none in the north of England; so we can forget that. The issue for Wales has been clearly set out. The document that we have already published states that if there is a zone that goes within 2 km of the border with Wales, the Welsh Environment and Countryside Department will have to be consulted. I suspect—although this should not be taken as gospel—that it is highly unlikely that a trial would happen so close to the Welsh border.

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt) about biosecurity, more stringent testing and overdue testing. We propose to reduce or abandon compensation where farmers are overdue. She asked me about numbers, and I agree with her that the figures she extrapolated are well out of sync. We anticipate that about 1,000 to 1,500 badgers would be killed, as a total over the four years, for every 150 sq km area.

I suspect, Mr Chope, that I have just about run out of time to address the key issues, although I hope that I have covered them. The subject is important and I have tried to deal with it without emotion. It is easy for both sides of the debate to get emotive. If there are any points I have not covered, I ask hon. Members to write to me and I shall do my best to answer.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Thursday 13th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

On 6 July, in a Westminster Hall debate on dangerous dogs, the Minister said in his response that there was

“real evidence that the situation is worsening”

and that

“Action must, therefore, be taken.”—[Official Report, 6 July 2011; Vol. 530, c. 485WH.]

Given that admission, is it not morally reprehensible that even today he refuses to give a date for a response to the consultation started by the previous Government?

[Mr Paice]

As I said earlier, the Government are fully committed on the matter, and I do not resile from anything that I said in that debate. However, as I have just mentioned, the Home Office rightly decided to examine the wider issues. [Interruption.] Hon. Members are bleating from the Opposition Front Bench, but they know as well as I do that much of the problem is the people, not the dogs. That is why it is right that the Home Office should be involved, but we will bring forward our proposals as soon as we possibly can.

Wild Animals (Circuses)

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Paice]

I fully understand my hon. Friend’s comments and I shall pick up one or two of them in a moment.

[Angela Smith]

rose—

[Mr Watts]

rose—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Paice and Angela Smith

Thursday 3rd February 2011 Commons Chamber

[Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

The consultation on the dangerous dogs legislation posed the possibility of extending the law relating to public land to private property, as supported by postal workers unions. Will the Government make that commitment when they announce the outcome to the consultation to protect workers such as doctors, midwives and postmen and women?

[Mr Paice]

The hon. Lady is right that the consultation posed that question. We believe that existing legislation might be slightly inadequate, but does cover what we might call the curtilage of property—the footpath to the door, or whatever—as well as open public space. However, there was very little support in the result of the consultation for extending the legislation inside the door and into people’s private property—which, as I intimated earlier, is, sadly, where a lot of the attacks happen.