Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Jack Dromey and Yvonne Fovargue

Committee Debate: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Thursday 1st February 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Dromey]

Although self-employed people will be able to access the help of the new body for their personal finances, they will not be able to use it for their business finances. We have listened very carefully to the voice of the self-employed—on one hand organisations such as the Federation of Small Businesses, and on the other hand people I have spoken to in my own constituency, including taxi drivers and construction workers who are self-employed and, indeed, an individual who ran a fruit and veg shop in Erdington High Street and got into financial difficulties.

I have seen how self-employed people badly need advice and guidance, and there is all too often an overlap between their personal advice and guidance and that for the business in which they are engaged. That is why we say that evidence shows that, for the self-employed, the line between personal and business finances is usually blurred and can be very difficult to manage, particularly for those just setting out as self-employed people. The number of self-employed people is higher than ever before in our economy, so they need to be able to rely on the new body for advice and guidance when they need it.

Figures released last year suggest that the number of self-employed workers in the United Kingdom rose by 23%—from 3.8 million to 4.7 million—between 2007 and 2017. That represents a shift in the nature of the world of work and the way the British economy is working. Self-employed people now represent about 15% of the workforce, and 91% of businesses say they hire contractors. The majority of self-employed people are sole traders, and there is no legal distinction between them as individuals and as businesses. There were 3.4 million sole traders in 2017. The biggest increase in self-employed people was among women.

Although self-employment is a positive choice for most, there is a real problem with the conscription of some into reluctant self-employment. Either way, the average earnings of the self-employed are significantly lower than those of the employed. The figures vary—I would be the first to acknowledge that—but there has been growth in self-employment in higher-skilled, higher-paying areas, such as advertising, public administration and banking. Although some workers enjoy greater flexibility and control over their working patterns, self-employment can nevertheless have a negative impact on their access to finance.

As self-employment has increased, so has demand for advice about business-related debts. Last year, 36,421 people were helped by the business debt line run by the national charity the Money Advice Trust, which does outstanding work and gave us very good advice and guidance about the Bill. Demand for the debt line has increased from 24,000 in 2016 to 36,421. The Money Advice Trust says, and I think it is right, that it expects the rise in demand to continue.

The amendments would ensure that the SFGB provided self-employed people with information, advice and guidance about their business-related, not just their personal, debt and finances, with a focus on those who are most in need, in line with the body’s wider objectives. The amendments would apply to its debt advice and money guidance functions. As Lord Haskel said in the other place,

“the work of the SFGB should include the self-employed and micro-businesses, particularly at a time when the line between company employment and self-employment is becoming very blurred.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 5 July 2017; Vol. 783, c. 933.]

Personal and business finances are closely intertwined for many self-employed people. Some 48% of self-employed people use a only personal current account for their business, and a further 17% use both a personal and a business account, according to the Financial Conduct Authority’s “Financial Lives” survey in 2017. The Money Advice Trust report, “The cost of doing business”, which is based on extended interviews with business debt line clients, found that almost seven in 10 of those who had taken out a personal loan were using it to prop up their business. Research by the University of Bristol’s personal finance research centre identified two key areas of overlap between business and personal finances: first, general living expenses, especially for those who live on their business premises; and, secondly, the use of personal credit to manage cash flow where necessary. Given the intertwining of business and personal finances for many self-employed people, if the SFGB does not offer information, advice and guidance on both, it will not be able to provide that growing section of the population with the support it needs.

I very much hope that the Minister will respond constructively to what we are saying and look at what might happen if the Government choose not to amend the Bill. I reserve my right to come back on that after hearing the Minister’s response.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I want to make a short contribution about how the finances of the self-employed are muddied with their personal finances. I had a meeting recently with Amigo Loans, a guarantor loan provider. It said that an increasing part of its business is loaning to people in a personal capacity, although they know it is for business purposes. Is that a business debt or a personal one? The fact that it does not look at the business plan might make it a personal debt, although I do think it ought to be looking at the business plan. Is it a personal debt or a business debt for the guarantor who guarantees the debt? In a lot of cases, it is fairly unclear where the line lies. To have a firm demarcation line where no business debts are dealt with is probably detrimental.

Financial Guidance and Claims Bill [ Lords ] (Second sitting)

Debate between Jack Dromey and Yvonne Fovargue

Thursday 1st February 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Jack Dromey]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. It is important that we get this right at the next stages of the Bill. I do not disagree for one moment. Having said that, let me distinguish between two things. Making substantial changes to the machinery of government to deliver a new function willed by Parliament can take a long time, so the SFGB probably will not be operational until May 2019. I understand that. However, it is not beyond the wit of man or woman to send an unambiguous message now, on the face of the Bill, to those who are responsible for unreasonable pressure being put on people in debt that they are not allowed to do so. Introducing that within six months of the Bill becoming law is eminently achievable.

I stress again that I am the first to recognise that great change sometimes takes time to implement, but to be frank, given the times we are living through, I do not want people who could get respite to spend another six months not getting it. There is no good reason not to give them respite. As I said when we started this morning, we want to strengthen a good Bill, and inject into it a greater sense of urgency as appropriate.

[Yvonne Fovargue]

I thank the Minister for his letter about breathing space and the other issues, but it gave me another question for him. He mentioned a six-week breathing space period. I have said this many times: please, please talk to debt advisers. Six weeks is really not enough time.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jack Dromey and Yvonne Fovargue

Monday 26th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

12. What recent estimate he has made of the number of people whose housing benefit has been reduced as a result of the social sector size criteria.

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

17. What recent estimate he has made of the number of people whose housing benefit has been reduced as a result of the social sector size criteria.

Citizens Advice Bureaux (Birmingham)

Debate between Jack Dromey and Yvonne Fovargue

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Jack Dromey]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very powerful point indeed. I suspect that all Members of Parliament, let alone advice agencies, are seeing the same trend of growing demand for support from us: advice on housing, advice on homelessness, advice on benefits and advice on debt. A whole range of issues is coming to us because there is growing demand when the economy is in difficulties and at the same time the Government are cutting back vital services to the people of Britain and Northern Ireland.

[Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that CAB and other advice agencies are facing a double whammy because of the cuts? The closure of the financial inclusion fund will leave 100,000 people who were served last year with nowhere to turn in the future, and more than 500 skilled and trained advice workers are currently serving their notice.

[Jack Dromey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She brings to this debate the wisdom and experience of her many years in the CAB. Her contribution is welcome, and she is right to bring home once again the consequences of what the Government are doing.

On the folly of the cuts, interesting independent academic research has demonstrated that every £1 invested in advice yields a return of up to £10 because early intervention produces the best results. What will happen—it is as simple as this—is that the CAB and other advice services will be run down and closed, and there will be greater risk of debt, homelessness, poverty, mental health problems and relationship breakdown simply because tried and tested services upon which people depend at a time of need have gone.