Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]

Debate between Ian Paisley and Jeremy Browne

Wednesday 13th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

There is a lot of desire to discuss proceeds of crime in Northern Ireland, so, ironically, the longer I speak, the less chance Members will have to speak about Northern Ireland matters. I will give way once, but I will not give way again, unless I have said something that offends people’s sensibilities.

[Ian Paisley]

The Minister certainly has not offended my sensibilities. He accepts that the Bill is deficient and will be deficient in its operation—he accepted that in Committee—and as he cannot obtain consent for the legislation in Northern Ireland, he is left with a choice. He can either ignore that and plough on without that consent or implement the legislation from this place. I think that it will boil down to that choice. The House will have to determine whether it will face down the unjustified opposition to the implementation of the Bill in Northern Ireland.

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, if only because it allows me to clarify that it is our intention to abide by the Sewel convention. We are not in the business of facing down, as he puts it, elected representatives in Northern Ireland, as we want to proceed with their approval and consent.

It is worth making it clear to the House that the NCA will still have a role in Northern Ireland, as there is a danger that a casual observer of our deliberations might think otherwise. I can confirm that some types of cross-border crime will fall within the remit of the NCA in Northern Ireland, even in its constrained form. For example, the NCA in Northern Ireland will be able to tackle immigration or customs offences. The NCA and CEOP will continue to be able to co-operate with partners in Northern Ireland and we are seeking to mitigate the operational impact of the situation we find ourselves in.

The NCA and CEOP will continue to operate in Northern Ireland, but it is worth saying that that operation will be curtailed as a result of the absence of legislative consent. In a way, that illustrates the wider point. There will be an NCA function in Northern Ireland and obviously we hope and believe that it will benefit the people of Northern Ireland. It will not be as comprehensive as we would have wished, but there is provision for it to be made more comprehensive in the future, as and when the political will and consensus in Northern Ireland provide for that.

Let me deal briefly with the non-Government amendments. New clause 2, tabled by the right hon. Member for Delyn, seeks to provide for a review of the NCA within 12 months of Royal Assent. I think I said earlier that the NCA would come into effect in October 2013, but for the avoidance of doubt let me clarify the Government’s position. We wish the NCA to come into effect by the end of 2013. Our target date is October, but that will obviously depend on matters that are not necessarily directly within our control, including potential issues to do with Parliament.

The new clause asks for a review during the 12 months after Royal Assent. Obviously, we want to keep a close eye on the effectiveness and accountability of the NCA when it is up and running and that is a core job of Government and Parliament, but the Government do not believe that an additional formal review mechanism is necessary. There are plenty of other means by which Ministers and Parliament can examine the progress made by the NCA and by which Parliament can examine the actions and decisions of Ministers.

Amendment 3 would make the director general’s power to provide assistance to any overseas Government or body subject to the prior approval of the Secretary of State. It is worth noting that there is no equivalent requirement for the Secretary of State to seek consent in statute for SOCA, HMRC or the security and intelligence services. We see no reason why we should create unnecessary statutory barriers to continuing the good work that already happens. Day-to-day assistance between the NCA and its overseas partners will be so routine that it would be completely impractical to require the Secretary of State to give consent in every instance.

On amendments 95 and 102, I must say that it was refreshing to hear the principal argument being made by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who made the case for trade unionism. Those points were not given more than a passing and cursory airing in Committee and were not raised by the Labour Front Bench, so we are not minded to agree to the amendments given that, as I understand it, there is consensus among the political parties that the Government are right and the Labour party enthusiastically supports the Government’s position on the trade unions.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian Paisley]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

One second.

Our position is clear. In a way, this is a strange debate, in that I am explaining the reality as it stands, but it is not the reality as I would like it to be. The British Government would like the NCA to apply in Northern Ireland in the way I have been describing throughout this afternoon. At the same time, we cannot have a system of devolution that applies only when the United Kingdom Government approve of the decisions made by the politicians in the devolved Executive and legislature. For devolution to mean anything, where the politicians in the devolved Executive and legislature—in this case in Northern Ireland—are not willing to endorse the preferred option of the United Kingdom Government, there obviously has to be a sense of discretion among those politicians. I want the politicians in Northern Ireland to arrive at the outcome that the United Kingdom Government seek, because I think it would be in the interests of the people in Northern Ireland.

[Ian Paisley]

That analysis might come back to bite the Minister under another set of circumstances. All I would say is that the First Minister of Northern Ireland said in evidence to a Select Committee in this House that, because of the disagreement, this sovereign Parliament should rule on it. That is the test for the Minister. Rule on it! He should make the sovereign decision if there has been no agreement. Let us remember that the majority of the Assembly has voted in favour of this proposal and the majority of the Executive is for it, but it is being held to ransom by a tiny, tiny minority.

[Mr Browne]

The point I am making is that the proposal is not being held to ransom by the UK Government. I agree with the hon. Gentleman; indeed, if I may say so, the tone of his intervention would rather imply to anybody who had not followed our deliberations carefully that he and I are on different sides of the argument. I agree with what he has said: I want people in Northern Ireland to have just as much protection under the NCA as people in my constituency of Taunton Deane, but I also recognise that the constitutional settlement in Northern Ireland is different from that in Somerset. Therefore, different considerations apply.

Jerusalem (Humanitarian Issues)

Debate between Ian Paisley and Jeremy Browne

Monday 26th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ian Paisley]

rose—

[Mr Browne]

I shall give way first to my hon. Friend the Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), and then to my newly acquired Friend, the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), who is normally on the Benches opposite.

[Mr Browne]

We want people of all faiths to have the right to practise their faith, but we also want a political arrangement in Jerusalem that will enable a two-state solution to become a reality.

[Ian Paisley]

I thank the Minister for his generosity in giving way. For the avoidance of doubt, will he make it clear that he will not succumb to or support calls for sanctions against Israel and the 6 million people who need to live and work in that country?

[Mr Browne]

Let me come to the subject in hand, and the hon. Gentleman can draw his conclusions. We are not talking about those measures this evening, but I would like to address the points made by the hon. Member for Stockton North.

First, like hon. Members, the Government are concerned about the threatened and actual demolition of Palestinian homes, particularly in the Silwan district of East Jerusalem. According to the United Nations, 515 structures were demolished in East Jerusalem and the west bank in 2011—a 40 % increase compared with 2010. Such demolitions and evictions are causing unnecessary suffering to ordinary Palestinians. They are harmful to the peace process and they are contrary to international humanitarian law in all but the most limited circumstances.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), raised the issue of demolitions with the Israeli ambassador on 23 February, and again with the Israeli Deputy Prime Minister, Dan Meridor, on 19 March. Her Majesty’s ambassador in Tel Aviv and embassy officials have also lobbied the Israelis, at ministerial and municipal level, on this issue. We have received a welcome assurance from the Jerusalem municipality that it has no plans to conduct wide-scale demolitions in Silwan in the immediate future. As hon. Members are aware, evictions and demolitions are also a pressing issue in Area C of the west bank. The United Nations estimated that by the end of 2011 there were more than 3,000 demolition orders outstanding in Area C, including 18 issued to schools. There is also an increasing number of demolition orders against infrastructure projects that have been funded by international co-operation programmes, including those of the European Union.

In East Jerusalem, Palestinians, and indeed international organisations, face severe difficulties in obtaining building permits. On average, only 4% of building permits requested by Palestinians for Area C were approved last year. Together with our European Union partners, we continue to press Israel to address these serious concerns about the planning regime in Area C. More fundamentally, we urge Israel greatly to accelerate the process for transferring authority over Area C to the Palestinian Authority.

Secondly, another significant concern for the British Government, this House and the international community is the continued expansion of Israeli settlements, including in East Jerusalem. The combination of the growing settlements and the separation barrier erected by Israel is increasingly separating East Jerusalem from the west bank, making it increasingly difficult for East Jerusalem to function as the capital of a future Palestinian state. Settlements, including in East Jerusalem, are illegal under international law and an obstacle to peace. They make negotiations more difficult and constitute a growing threat to the feasibility of a two-state solution, a solution supported by Israel and the Palestinian Authority, the international community and a majority of both Israelis and Palestinians. Settlement activity has no justification and should cease immediately. We have repeatedly given that message to Israel, including at the most senior levels.

Along with EU colleagues, we are deeply concerned at the agreement recently reached between the Israeli Government to move settlers from the illegal west bank outpost of Migron to a new settlement in the west bank. We note that Israel’s Supreme Court has rejected the Government’s petition to allow settlers to stay until 2015. Had the deal been ratified, it would have set a dangerous precedent, entirely contrary to Israel’s obligations under the Quartet roadmap. Hon. Members will be aware of the statement issued by the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire, on 16 March calling on the Israeli Government to rescind their decision. We will continue to urge the Israeli Government not to pursue their current approach of legalising such illegal outposts.