Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership

Ian Murray Excerpts

Thursday 15th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

It is always a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell)—indeed, I always follow him because he always seems to be called last in these debates. I do not know what he has done to upset someone in this House, but I am sure Santa delivered him some presents last month. He rightly pointed out the concerns about TTIP, and the Minister might wish to reflect that my hon. Friend and my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) are agreeing on something, which shows there must be significant problems with the TTIP negotiations. I hope that the Minister realises that people have significant concerns across the House, and those have been expressed today.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) for bringing this important debate to the House. Everything he said in his opening remarks has been reflected across all the contributions made this afternoon, and I am glad he stated at the end of his contribution that his aspiration was for a gold standard in trade deals to properly regulate trade from the EU and across the Atlantic. That is the way we want this to go, and the proper debate in this House is about ensuring that we can get the information, the scrutiny and the transparency we need to make those proper decisions on behalf of our constituents.

TTIP does command considerable public interest, and I was slightly disappointed that the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) railed against 38 Degrees. I appreciate that there have been some problems on this issue but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) rightly says, if constituents are e-mailing us with concerns and the information they are getting is inaccurate, that gives us an opportunity. I am glad they e-mailed me in their thousands, because that gives me an opportunity to put the record straight and give them further information.

[Mr Robin Walker]

Let me reassure the hon. Gentleman that I agree with him completely; I am always glad of the opportunity to put the correct facts to my constituents. The problem occurs where a group is misleading its own members, and I do think it is legitimate to raise concerns about that, especially where a Select Committee has been misled on a number of occasions.

[Ian Murray]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman to a certain degree, but as for the way the campaign has been run by a number of organisations, let me say that they are rightly raising concerns. That is a symptom of the transparency and the debate in this House, and the fact that Members have not been given the information that their constituents are seeking. It is incredibly disappointing that this is the third debate we have had in this House but each has been brought by Back-Bench Opposition Members. We really need the Government to debate this properly and in a much more transparent fashion.

The truth is that this place lacks proper ways to hold Ministers to account for what they do or decide in Europe on these trade deals. This is not just a criticism of this place and the Government, because the EU has also had to be persuaded to be more transparent. Although it has improved transparency to a certain extent on TTIP, the EU has an incredibly long way to go to give the public confidence that it is actually responding to their concerns.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

In what has been termed a “zombie Parliament”, the Government can hardly argue that we do not have time to spare to talk about very important issues such as TTIP.

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[Ian Murray]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; we often talk about the zombie Parliament. We seem to have done very little in this House for the past year to 18 months, and we could have used some of that Government time to explore these issues. Perhaps if we had done so, we would not have had some of the misinformation that is perceived to be around, and we would have been able to address some of the concerns of the constituents who have e-mailed us in great numbers. That was rightly emphasised by my hon. Friend the Member for Heywood and Middleton (Liz McInnes), who stressed that a lack of scrutiny and transparency had led to widespread suspicions about TTIP, and those have to be addressed.

The economic impact of TTIP is debated, but it is important to bear it in mind that it will entirely depend on the final scope of the deal. To a certain extent I agree with the hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith); we have to analyse this on the basis of benefits and we have to make sure that they are actually tangible benefits to our constituents. We know from recent history that balanced trade deals have a positive impact on economic activity and job creation, but people’s concerns mean that we are here to debate them and whether or not those positive impacts are actually real. Until we address those, we cannot get on to what the positive impacts might be—and there should be such impacts, because Europe and the US are our most important markets today.

Indeed, the US is the UK’s biggest export market and TTIP could be transformative, but only if it is allowed to be and only if the deal is good for the UK. It does provide a real opportunity to regulate global trade, and it could benefit the UK. We should not shy away from that, because unregulated trade creates a race to the bottom. Many Members have stated in this debate that it is the race to the bottom that concerns them, and it is this process that is creating that race to the bottom, especially when it comes to standards and the way that the negotiations are perceived to be progressing.

As many Members have mentioned, including my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson), Labour Governments, going back to the Attlee Administration, have engaged positively in attempting to regulate global trade, making trade agreements to ensure that everyone benefits, and that is an important point to make.

Labour lends its support to the principle of TTIP and trade, but not unqualified support. We should not accept any deal that is not beneficial to the British people, and the benefits from any deal must filter down to consumers and small businesses. That point was made by the Federation of Small Businesses in the submission that it sent to all Members. We are not prepared to accept a deal that does not protect our public services and the NHS, and which does not satisfy the concerns that we have heard this afternoon on safety, food and environmental and labour standards. That was a point that was made quite forcefully by my right hon. Friend the Member for Warley (Mr Spellar). We must have a deal that has transparency and accountability at its heart.

There is widespread interest in these negotiations. Organisations such as Global Justice Now deserve tremendous credit for ensuring that TTIP is in the consciousness of both the public and politicians. It is the topic on which I have received the most correspondence as a Member of Parliament, which shows the thirst that the public has for gaining more information on what this trade deal means for them personally.

What is clear is that this cannot be a backroom trade deal done between Brussels and Washington. In a debate last February, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) said:

“Like justice, good trade policy must not only be done but must now be seen to be done.” —[Official Report, 25 February 2014; Vol. 576, c. 189.]

Any legitimate agreement must command broad-based confidence that it will deliver on the benefits that it has claimed.

Pressure from interested politicians and the public through some of the campaigns has led to advancements in the deal. Let me start by mentioning the NHS and public services. We have said all along that unless the NHS and public services are fully protected we cannot and will not support any TTIP deal. It was Labour and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne who were the first to insist on full protection for the NHS. With Labour colleagues in the UK and European Parliaments, we have been campaigning hard for this guarantee, and it is that campaigning that has secured the commitment from the EU chief negotiator that the NHS can and will be fully protected. He said that

“full policy space has been reserved for publicly funded health services”

and, further, that any provision will have

“no impact on the UK’s sovereign right to make changes to the NHS.”

However, Labour will not support a deal unless that commitment is totally honoured. It will take a strong UK Government in the EU to ensure that that is delivered, but Government Ministers have done nothing to secure that commitment at EU level. What is clear is that the biggest threat to the NHS and public services in the UK—this has been said by many of my hon. Friends—is not this or any trade agreement, but the re-election of a Conservative Government in May. Of course EU negotiators need the agreement of member state Governments to be able to take these things forward. Will the Minister confirm that the Government will not support any TTIP treaty that includes the NHS and public services? He can give that commitment at the Dispatch Box this afternoon and take the matter off the table.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) said, if the Government are so convinced that the NHS and other public services are not to be included in the deal, why do they not take a belt and braces approach and put it into the negative list to give everyone the comfort that they seek? This is important not just for the NHS and public services but because Labour will repeal the Health and Social Care Act 2012 in May 2015 without impediment. The failure to put public services, including the NHS, on the negative list might, as my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield said, undermine the assurances we have been given. So it would be very good to get the Minister’s response to that.

The second area that many Members have focused on is ISDS. There is a case for saying that private arbitration mechanisms are best used among partners with uneven levels of protection and where a due process of law cannot be guaranteed, but that is not the case in either the US or the EU, and many Members have said that in those particular advanced jurisdictions, contract law should suffice. There are huge concerns that ISDS would prevent Governments from legislating for the benefit of the country. TTIP must not challenge the ability of this House, and of elected Members, to adopt and implement laws and regulations as we see fit and as we are elected to do.

[Zac Goldsmith]

If the Labour party were given an opportunity and were in charge of these negotiations at any point in the near future, would they insist on the removal of ISDS from TTIP? Is that a red line for them?

[Ian Murray]

We have said clearly that ISDS in its current form is not desirable in this trade deal, and the Government have said they do not think that ISDS will ever be used in the context of an EU-US trade deal, so my question would be, if it will not be used, why have it in that deal? We very much welcome the European Commission’s consultation. We very much welcome yesterday’s announcement that ISDS has been suspended, but we are unconvinced at this stage that ISDS in its current form is either necessary or desirable in the agreement, and we would have to see what its pausing would do.

On the basis of that intervention, my question to the Minister would be: how will he respond to the pausing and suspension of the ISDS negotiations in the trade deal yesterday, and what will the UK Government be doing to express the serious concerns on those issues expressed in the House today?

I shall mention some of the views expressed by my hon. Friends. My hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) emphasised that we want free trade but that it is important to engage to ensure that it is fair and regulated. He was right to talk about the power of trade agreements to drive up standards, and to say that that should be the goal, and that we should not support the dilution of standards. He gave personal examples of where that has happened. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), who highlighted the potential benefits for the Scottish agricultural industry, but spoke about what the impact would be, in that particular economy, on food standards.

I was slightly confused by the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), who seemed to say that the NHS was completely and utterly secure, but then argued that the tobacco industry should be removed from the deal in case it could use ISDS provisions to sue the UK Government for acting on public health grounds. That was a slightly contradictory response. That highlights the fact that ISDS is a real problem as regards what TTIP is intended to deliver.

As time is running out, I shall pose some questions to the Minister, who may be able to answer them in his reply. What plans do the Government have to ensure that this House is kept fully informed as to the content of those negotiations and the Government’s response to them? Will he keep the public informed and engaged, because it is clear from this afternoon’s debate that the public are not engaged in this process directly by the Government but by other organisations? Will he outline how the business community will stay engaged in this debate and how he will respond to what looks as though it will be the unanimous passing of the motion moved by my hon. Friend from Cardiff West?

[Geraint Davies]

Swansea West.

[Ian Murray]

I am sorry. That is a slip that should never be made in this House, but never mind. Cardiff West is probably the best place to be. I have often been called the Member for Glasgow South, and been very happy to be so.

We need more engagement on TTIP in this House and at EU level, and I hope the Government will respond positively to this debate so that everyone can benefit from a robust and effective treaty, and so that the concerns that were exposed this afternoon can be dealt with properly.

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[Matthew Hancock]

Of course that will be allowed, but the point is that we would still have control over our public health policy. I can give that reassurance, which was sought by the hon. Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) on the Labour Front Bench, so I hope he will now remove that objection. I do not want to conclude that some Opposition Members do not want to be reassured, but increasingly that is the only view I can reasonably come to.

[Ian Murray]

That was not the question I posed to the Minister. The question I asked was: if there is any threat whatsoever to the NHS and the UK’s wider public services, will the Minister and the Government sign a TTIP trade deal?

[Matthew Hancock]

The Health Secretary has already made it clear that if a trade deal threatened the NHS, he would not support it. However, as the former Trade Commissioner has said:

“Public services are always exempted”.

I am glad that we can finally put that issue to bed. I doubt that Labour Front Benchers will raise it again, because they now know that they would be misleading the nation if they did so.