Draft Social Security (Scotland) Act 2018 (Disability Assistance and Information- Sharing) (Consequential Provision and Modifications) Order 2022

Ian Murray Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 General Committees

[Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Ms Rees.

We will not divide the Committee on this order; we fully agree with it. We have continued frustrations that such provisions, which are transferred under the 2016 Act and the subsequent legislation, are taking a long time to get through.

I have some questions for the Minister. There is interaction between the new Scottish systems and existing UK infrastructure, including in respect of the DWP and the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency—I am sure the Minister’s inbox is as full as mine with messages from constituents who have problems and are struggling to get a response from the DVLA—so how do we ensure the seamless transition of the benefit? Even more importantly, how do we ensure seamless passporting to other benefits and other attachments to the new benefit?

How do we ensure that people who are on PIP in particular are aware of the different timescales for when people can apply and of who to apply to? There is no doubt that the DWP system is, by its very nature, incredibly complicated—we see from the experience of our constituents who apply for PIP and other benefits how complicated the process can be—so what support will be put in place to ensure the seamless transition from previous benefits to the new benefits administered in Scotland? How can we ensure there are no delays in the process? Personal independence payments go to some of the most vulnerable people in the country so we would not want things to be delayed.

If I was being slightly playful at this time in the morning, I would have asked the Minister to emphasise the fact that if someone moves from Scotland to another part of the UK, the Scottish Government will continue to pay for 13 weeks, and to comment on how that would relate to pensions in an independent Scotland, but I shall not push him on that today. Perhaps the hon. Member for Glasgow East could enlighten us when he makes his contribution for the SNP.

I have asked several questions but we will not divide the Committee. It is great that orders such as this are now coming through and that powers are being transferred, as set out in the 2016 Act and promised after the Smith commission. We fully support the Government in respect of this order.

--- Later in debate ---

[Iain Stewart]

I am grateful to hon. Members for their contributions to the debate and particularly to the hon. Members for Edinburgh South and for Glasgow East for indicating their support for the measure. They and my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley all raised perfectly fair questions, which I will endeavour to answer.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh South asked about the transition process. Initially, there will be a pilot scheme for new claimants only in three parts of Scotland—Dundee, Perth and Kinross, and the Western Isles—before existing claimants are gradually transitioned over later in the year, so there will not be a cliff-edge or big-bang transition. I hope that will allay the hon. Member’s perfectly valid concerns about ensuring, as he rightly said, that the most vulnerable people in society are not disadvantaged.

It is very tempting at this hour of the morning to enter into a broader constitutional debate, but I am not sure my Whip would be particularly accommodating of that. In the same spirit, I will not rise to the bait of some of the points made by the hon. Member for Glasgow East. I am sure there will be plenty other occasions in the weeks, months, years and decades ahead—

[Ian Murray]

In the generations ahead.

[Iain Stewart]

Generations, indeed. I am sure we will return to these matters.

I should also say that such things are complex to transition, and we have been co-operating with the Scottish Government to ensure that it can happen in their desired timescale, with the pilots starting later this month. I also pay tribute to officials from both the DWP and the Scottish Government for doing the detailed preparatory work to ensure that this change can happen.

Finally, on the sensible questions from my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley, the situation does apply both ways. If a person in England claims PIP or one of the other benefits and moves to Scotland, the DWP would look to ensure that they had an equivalent transition period. The 13 weeks is a safety net, and applications can be made in advance. It is there to ensure that payments can continue if there is some delay, so that no one is disadvantaged.

On my hon. Friend’s further sensible point about whether the matter would need to be revisited if the Scottish Government chose to change the adult disability payment so that it did not capture broadly the same cohort as PIP, that is not the case at the moment. The definition of eligibility is very similar, and the quantum of payment is broadly similar. Until that diverges significantly—I have no crystal ball to see whether it will—the current carry-over remains sensible. Of course, we will always keep things under review to ensure we were not missing anyone out. I hope that reassures my hon. Friend.

This order is a sensible and pragmatic move on the UK Government’s part to make devolution work and reflects strong co-operation between the Scottish and UK Governments.

Question put and agreed to.