Nationality and Borders Bill

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Report stage & 3rd reading
Wednesday 8th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith]

I am grateful to you for clarifying, Mr Speaker.

I will just say to the right hon. Gentleman that of course he is right, and it is important for us to understand that this is an issue not of asylum or migration but decency. He will know—even if he does not, I am going to say it to the House—that a significant chunk of those who are now part of the modern-day slavery ghastliness emanate from the UK. It is important that local authorities and others understand that they are looking not just for people who are trafficked in, but for those being trafficked within the UK. That is an important point. I agree with him, and the point of today’s debate is to try to raise that issue.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

The right hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) makes a pertinent point, but is not Justice and Care—and its navigators who help victims of trafficking with the criminal justice system—one of the success stories? We get more prosecutions because of that charity and the work it does.

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith]

I thank my hon. Friend for signing the new clause, and he is absolutely right. Justice and Care has done a phenomenal amount of work; I am enormously grateful for its guidance and we have worked together on this matter. He is quite right to congratulate the organisation; without it, I suspect this would have been very difficult.

Let me bring in two examples that illustrate the problem. First, a Home Office local authority pilot found that all 62 adult survivors receiving support through the project in 2018-19 supported a criminal investigation, which makes my point that, with the right support, people do the right thing. They lose their fear, they understand that they are protected and they will give evidence. Secondly, Justice and Care found that 89% of victims supported by victim navigator support workers chose subsequently to engage with the police.

I say to my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Treasury Bench that it is important that we understand and separate this question out from all the other arguments that go on about migration and asylum. This is ultimately about helping ourselves and helping the victims. The two go together, and that is the important issue.

It is also worth reminding ourselves of the cost of modern slavery right now, without the resolution that we require and that this new clause would bring. The Home Office estimates the cost at £328,000 per modern slavery victim—a total of £32 billion using 2020 estimates of 100,000 victims from the Centre for Social Justice. I will just repeat that figure: £32 billion is the overall cost. That does not include court, prison and probation costs, or the costs of failed or aborted prosecutions due to insufficient evidence. So the case becomes stronger and stronger that this Bill offers the opportunity to do the right thing here.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Iain Duncan Smith]

While we are talking about Tatiana—she has been phenomenal in bringing cases forward and I pay tribute to her—it is worth reminding the House that she cannot be with us at the moment because she is about to give birth. We congratulate her on that.

[Mr Bone]

I can give the House an update: birth has not yet occurred and she is watching today’s proceedings. I wish her very well with the new baby.

Let me go back to the national referral mechanism. One thing that people misunderstand about new clause 47 is that they think it refers to when people go into the NRN, but it does not. It would apply for people who have “conclusive grounds”—people the Government agree are real victims of human trafficking. The difference between me and the Government is about what happens next. We have always looked after victims of human trafficking—it has been a really sensible process, with overall control given to the Salvation Army and then distributed through all the different charities and voluntary and religious groups that help to look after victims. But I want there not to be any victims in the first place. I want these evil gangs stopped. By the way, this is organised crime: they are ruthless and horrible and they do not care about people. They are quite happy to murder people. If we can shut them down, we will not have the victims, which is why the prosecution of these gangs is so important.

When we have discussed the failure to secure prosecutions in the past, it was argued, “Well, we prosecute on lesser offences so that we get convictions,” but these people are put away for only a small amount of time. We want to nail the people at the top and put them away for a very long time, to make it a dangerous thing to be involved in. If it is dangerous and they are likely to get caught and put away for a long time, they will not carry out this evil trade and will try something else.

The difference between me and the Government in respect of leave to remain, which is the crux of new clause 47, is that I think it should be given as a right to people who are confirmed as victims of trafficking if their immigration status is irregular. I say that for two reasons: first, they are much more likely to help to prosecute the evil gangs if they know that their immigration status is secure for a year; and secondly, if we do it not that way but on a piecemeal basis, there is a possibility, to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green referred, that the lawyers will go to the court and say, “The only reason why this person is saying that is because it is the only way she could have got leave to remain,” whereas if it is a right, they cannot use that argument at all.

I will listen with great interest to what the Minister says in response to the debate. If my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green pushes new clause 47 to a Division, I will indeed support it. I know that the Minister and the Government share my desire to get these evil gangs; we just have a little difference on this point. Why doesn’t the Minister accept the new clause and perhaps add a sunset clause in the other place? Put two years on it, and if in two years nobody extra is prosecuted, we were clearly wrong. But if a lot more people are prosecuted, as I believe they would be, the Government could renew the sunset clause.

Everybody is trying to do the right thing here; we are just discussing the best way forward. I go back to the start and say well done to Anthony Steen and to all the Governments who have moved forward and made our country the best place to prosecute modern-day slavery. But we can do better, and we can and must do better with children. New clause 47 would help us to prosecute more evil gangs, so I very much support it and hope that the Government will accept at least its principle.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Tuesday 31st January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Clegg]

No, I wish to make some progress. That is why I believe that this House has not a choice but a duty to withhold from the Government the right to proceed with Brexit in the way they have planned. That would not stop Brexit but would simply urge the Government to go back to the drawing board and to come back to this House with a more sensible and moderate approach to Brexit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 7th December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

With respect to the hon. Gentleman, it was made clear at the Budget by the Chancellor that the total package of changes includes changes to the welfare budget of £12 billion, but that other Departments are also involved in the process of getting rid of the deficit. I thought that the Labour party had said it was in favour of getting rid of the deficit, so the question is what it plans to do. I remind him that a huge amount of the savings are being made because more people are going back to work and fewer people are therefore claiming benefits.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Following on from what the Secretary of State has just said, if the British people vote to come out of the EU, we will not be giving £350 million a week or more than £1 billion every three weeks to the EU. Would he welcome some of that money for his Department?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend must not dare tempt me in that direction. What is really important is that we run our economy here in the UK for the benefit of citizens of the UK. We have made our position clear: we want to ensure that those who have not been here for a certain period of time and have not contributed are not able to draw upon our benefits system.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 2nd November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

8. What assessment he has made of the potential effect on his Department of restricting benefits for EU nationals.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

Since the start of last year we have been taking action through a range of measures to restrict access to benefits for EU migrants looking for work in the UK, because the last Labour Government left us an open door. That will ensure that advantage is not taken of our welfare system, and that the system is also fair to those who pay into it. It is estimated that changes made by my Department and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will save more than half a billion pounds over the next few years.

[Mr Bone]

Does the excellent Secretary of State agree that it would be easier and more efficient for us to treat all EU citizens in the same way, and allow into the country only the ones whom we want here? Would not the end of free movement make his life much easier?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend started so well. However, I will avoid his blandishment to take myself even further than I might have.

I remind my hon. Friend—who is doing much to promote himself to a job in the Government—that no one who is unemployed and not a British citizen will be able to receive universal credit at all, which is a huge step towards the arrangement that he is after.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Thursday 9th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The answer to my hon. Friend’s question, which I wanted to come to, is that that is the perverse nature of tax credits. About 40% of those on tax credits had tax taken off them, which was recycled through the system with some of it being given back to them. That seems to be a rather bizarre and absurd system.

The tax credit system was the brainchild of the previous Prime Minister, Gordon Brown. The original tax credit system, introduced by the Labour Government, cost £1.1 billion in its first year; the tax credit system now costs some £30 billion a year, most of which is spent on child tax credits. This money was pumped into the system in a clear attempt to chase what was then a moving poverty line. In fact, under the previous Government, £258 billion of hard-earned taxpayers’ money was recycled to be spent cumulatively on tax credits—a huge sum.

We saw massive spikes in tax credit spending in the run-up to election years. In the two years before the 2005 election, spending increased by £10 billion—a 70% increase. In the two years before the 2010 election, it increased by some £6 billion, or 25%. It is worth looking again at the in-between years, when it suddenly flattened but rose before an election. There were disproportionate increases in the child element, in an attempt to keep up with that moving median line. The child element was increased by more than earnings in 2004-05 and from 2008-09 to 2010-11, so that by 2010-11 the child element had increased by 25% more than if it had been uprated in line with average earnings since 2003-04.

One of the worst aspects of the system was the way people had to predict their income for a year. If their actual earnings turned out to be different, they were left with large overpayments or underpayments. This caused misery for families and left a gaping hole in the public finances. Although Labour Members have never owned up to it, we lost billions through that process. To try to deal with the situation, a large disregard was introduced. People then did not have to tell the Government if their income changed by up to £25,000 in the course of a year. To have the disregard at that level was completely irresponsible. It was an attempt to use taxpayers’ money to plug holes in a failing system.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Was that not one of the cruellest aspects of Gordon Brown’s system? In my constituency surgery, I saw desperately poor people who were being asked to repay money they could not afford. It was extraordinarily cruel.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I agree with my hon. Friend.

Child Poverty

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Thursday 25th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman to his position. I simply remind him that for five years he was part of what we were doing, so I hope that he would welcome today’s figures. I am sure that he has a new set of policies and I am happy to look at what he has come up with.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Before the Secretary of State was in his post, I encountered a benefit culture in my constituency surgeries; people in families where nobody had ever worked were coming to my surgeries. Gradually, over time, that has shifted, with more and more people getting jobs. Is that not the root success story: if we can get people into work, we break the benefit culture?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is exactly the point. It is work that takes people out of poverty. We must support those who are furthest away and have the greatest difficulty, but we want the rest of them to move into work. We want the barriers, the debt problems and all those issues to be removed and we want to get them into work. We want to improve their kids’ education and improve their life chances. My hon. Friend is spot on.

Universal Credit

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Tuesday 25th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have been to many such jobcentres. I was in Hammersmith last week, when I talked to a number of people who have claimed the benefit. They were very clear about the difference that being able to stay with an adviser in the jobcentre has made to their lives. All of them said that it had allowed them to develop, get on and get a better job as a result.

On the second part of my hon. Friend’s question, we have announced the child care package today. Basically, people will get child care support at 85% of the costs. The reality is that that will be for every hour that they are in work. Unlike with tax credits at the moment, whether they are doing five or 10 hours or 20 or 25 hours, they will get help with child care. That will be a huge help for those with caring responsibilities, particularly lone parents who have to get back to work as well as look after their household.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

It is rare to have a Secretary of State who is so passionate about a subject, has so much ability and has so much determination to see something through; in fact, he stood up to the Prime Minister to keep himself in his Department. He has two very able Ministers to support him, the Minister for Employment and the Minister for Pensions—I hope that that does not embarrass the Liberal Democrat on the Front Bench—and there are two worthwhile Opposition shadows, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) and the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms).

It must be a matter of congratulation for the Secretary of State that universal credit is working. The Opposition want it in as quickly as possible so that they can congratulate him, but I think that he is right to keep rolling it out. Is that not the way to handle future Government programmes?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend will forgive me if I do not repeat to the Prime Minister the first part of his question. Certainly, the Prime Minister and I are in complete agreement on all these measures, and I am of course implementing only what he wishes to see. I want that point on the record, if possible. Yes, the key thing is that we are trying to deliver universal credit safely and securely. I am pleased that my hon. Friend, from his position, is so supportive.

Universal Credit

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Wednesday 9th July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Department for Education is making a decision about the best way to deliver free school meals. People who are eligible for free school meals will be eligible for them under the new arrangements. This is an opportunity to ensure that all those who really need free school meals actually get them. There are often problems in the existing system, so this is an opportunity to reform the system to improve the take-up and the accuracy.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

We have seen Parliament at its best over the past two days. There were a couple of points of order yesterday and there is an urgent question today. I say gently to the shadow Minister, who is one of the best shadow Ministers, that he went over the top. The Secretary of State has come to the House and answered the question. It is a shame that the shadow Minister did not listen to the answer before commenting. Does the Secretary of State not think that he has one of the best teams in Parliament, and that his Ministers are of the highest integrity? If one of them had made a mistake, they would have come to the Dispatch Box and apologised.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West, and others have not made mistakes. We have been crystal clear about this matter. I stand by the words that have been used and the statements that have been made, as I said earlier. The hon. Member for Rhondda normally does not listen, but just says what he was going to say, regardless of the answer. I suspect that a conversation with him is a very one-way process.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 11th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Yes. I congratulate the hon. Lady on focusing on this across all the Departments, as I am aware that she has asked this question to a number of Departments. She is absolutely right. We do need to co-ordinate much better between Departments. As she knows, this is an historical issue for different Governments. The Department for Education chairs the data working group, which includes the Home Office, the Serious Organised Crime Agency, and the Children’s Society. I understand that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is also involved. That should help to improve the collection and publication of data. The pilot will begin shortly to see that we sort this out. She is right that we must do more to improve data as part of the missing children strategy and make sure that we get it right.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

9. If he will bring forward proposals to restrict eligibility for housing benefit for people aged under 25.

[The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)]

In June last year the Prime Minister commenced a debate on the cost to the taxpayer of meeting the £2 billion bill for automatic entitlement to housing benefit for people aged under 25. Although that is not current Government policy, I have had a number of representations on the issue—not from the Opposition, but from others.

[Mr Bone]

If the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State are in favour, I cannot understand why that is not Government policy. With so many under-25s who are hard-working having to stay at home with their parents, why are the Government spending £1.8 billion a year housing under-25s who are on benefits? I cannot see how that is fair.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

My hon. Friend is right that the bill for under-25s in receipt of housing benefit is in the order of £2 billion a year. Some 370,000 under-25s claim housing benefit, and 42% of them are without children. However, the reality is that when we looked at that in the round prior to the spending review, it was agreed that it was not a priority area for the coalition. No doubt he will continue to campaign for it to be a priority area, and I am very happy to discuss the matter with him.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 23rd January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

With respect to the hon. Lady, she is mixing up policies. This question is about universal credit, but she is referring to the cap. I am sorry that no Opposition Member tabled a question on the cap—there might be a reason for that, but I do not quite know what it is.

What I said this morning was quite clear. I said that when it comes to the cap and smaller numbers of people, we have worked very hard over the last nine months or so to ensure that we know who will be eligible to fall within the cap. We know exactly all their details, which will make it easier for us to help them through the process. She should have a word with Opposition Front Benchers, and ask them why they did not ask a question about the cap.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

When the Secretary of State introduces the new IT system, will he consider introducing a skills database for all those who want a job, enabling employers to dial into the database and match the skills required with the person seeking a job, as against the other way round as at present?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

That is a very good idea and I am certainly ready to discuss it with my hon. Friend. If we can make something work, it would be brilliant.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 28th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

As the hon. Lady knows, when we entered office we inherited a housing benefits system in a mess and local housing allowance was already spiralling —it has approximately doubled in the last 10 years—so she should look at what happened before as much as at what happens now.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that new policy announcements from his Department should be made to Parliament first?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 28th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I can say to the hon. Lady, much as my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary has before, that we are reviewing all of this. The purpose is to ensure that those who are involved in caring will get greater and better support and that they will be better cared for themselves. The reality is that we chose for that reason not to take carer’s allowance into the universal credit, which the hon. Lady has not touched on, because that would have meant that some people might have lost out.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

21. What plans he has for the future of disability living allowance; and if he will make a statement.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 10th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The issue that my hon. Friend has raised is complicated. We are looking at it and discussing it, and I am happy to take it further with him if he wishes. However, it does add complications to an already complicated system.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

16. What his most recent forecast is of the claimant count in (a) Wellingborough and (b) the UK in 2011-12.

Welfare Reform

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Thursday 11th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

They will not. We have given that commitment, and it can be found within the £2.1 billion.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

It is a sad fact that in Wellingborough there is a subculture of young people who have never known a family where anyone has ever worked, and who have always lived off benefits and in social housing. They come to my surgery to try to get a bigger house. How do we break that cultural trend? It is not just about incentives; we have to break the culture.

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Alone, this would not be enough, but my point is that it will run in parallel with the Work programme, which will get to unemployed people, such as the young people going to my hon. Friend’s surgery, early and wrap around them a process that gets them away from that culture. Often they come from homes where there is no work. This programme will get them to see and work through the fact that being in work is the best and most important thing if they want to take control of their lives.

Welfare Reform

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 11th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

I have been doing the figures, actually. The hon. Gentleman should remember that the measure is not being brought in until towards the end of the Parliament in 2013. In the meantime, we have already instigated some changes to how housing benefit is paid. The hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that in some parts of London there has been complicity among private landlords to push the rents up much higher than they should have done. That was because the Labour Government never sorted out housing benefit.

The reality is that we will manage the process. The numbers will be far smaller than the hon. Gentleman talks about. We will make sure that what we do as we go forward is give the taxpayer and those in receipt of benefit a fair deal. I do not think that a person needs £35,000 a year gross to live a reasonable life.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his statement today. I do not think that anyone in the House is more able to deal with the welfare problem than him.

With hindsight, does my right hon. Friend think that it was a mistake to announce the change in child benefit policy in a television studio last week rather than waiting to announce it in the House today? Was a written statement given to the other place, which was sitting last week?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

The Chancellor made a statement in a television studio, but he made a statement to the country and my hon. Friend at the same time. All I can say is that the policy has been discussed by me, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor. As far as I am concerned, come the spending review my hon. Friend will see even more details about other changes. There will be full statements on those as well.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Iain Duncan Smith and Peter Bone

Monday 19th July 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Duncan Smith]

It is ridiculous for the right hon. Lady to stand there, two and a half months after leaving government with the finances in a total shambles, and try to lecture us about youth unemployment. [Interruption.] I remind her that in the whole time for which Labour Members were in government, there were only three years in which they reduced unemployment for 16 to 17-year-olds. Youth unemployment rose throughout 10 years, and the Labour Government left it worse than they found it. No lectures from the right hon. Lady, please; only apologies will do.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State take no lectures from the Opposition on unemployment? In Wellingborough unemployment doubled under the Labour Government.

What would my right hon. Friend have said if he had been in my office on Friday, when a constituent came in and said, “My granddaughter works very hard. She’s a single mum and she’s just getting by, but she doesn’t have a council house. The other granddaughter has given up her job and is on benefits. She has a house and is better off”? Which granddaughter is doing the right thing?

[Mr Duncan Smith]

Those who take the risk and try to work and take jobs are the people whom we want to support in society. The trouble is that endlessly under the previous Government, the levels of support for those who did not take a risk or a chance were too high for them ever to take those risks. The answer is very simply this: we will value those who try, and make sure that things such as housing benefit and unemployment benefit are set at rates that do not discourage people from taking work.