Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Consideration of Lords message
Monday 12th June 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

The hon. Gentleman is referring to processes in the past in Brussels, but the Lords amendment suggests that a Committee should examine such matters. I believe that in this place Committees meet in public.

[Sir William Cash]

With respect to the question of how the laws are made in the first place, that is what I am saying. The reason the Bill is so important is the need to overtake and, effectively, deal with the mistakes made in the past, over that 40 or 50-year period, whereby the laws were made in the way that I have described—and they were. They were done by consensus, because everybody knew before they walked into the room that the majority vote would work against them. I have spent a lot of time scrutinising such things—I was going to say a lifetime, and I almost have—and all that I can say is that nobody would seriously doubt that that is how the system operated at that time.

We are talking about these laws because we want to revoke or modify them. We are not going to get rid of all of them—we will modify some and revoke others, and that will be by a simple test. That test will not be whether or not it was decided by 27 other countries to which we were subjugated by law—[Interruption.] We did that in the European Communities Act 1972, which was a great mistake. We have moved to a situation as the result of a general election in this country, the result of which is that we are allowed to make our own laws here in this House on behalf of our constituents. I think that is a very reasonable position. It is not only reasonable but absolutely essential, because it is about democracy and sovereignty and self-government. That is what the people decided in the referendum.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 13th June 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Solicitor General]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I am surprised that there can be that level of divergence on what is a most important point. He makes the vital assertion, which I think is right, that the important amendments considered yesterday, which were outlined very carefully, relate to the powers in the Bill and how the Bill will operate. Of course they are consistent with Government policy, and there is absolutely no question but that their terms are entirely consistent with what the British Government want to achieve. It is important to note, however, that they relate to the powers in the Bill: a correcting power, the withdrawal agreement power, consequential powers and transitional powers.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Does the Solicitor General not accept that the answer he has just given to the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds), on the nature of the border between Dublin and Belfast, necessitates similar arrangements between Dublin and Holyhead if we are to sustain the Union between Northern Ireland and the rest of Great Britain?

[The Solicitor General]

The issue of the border will apply to the length and breadth of our United Kingdom. I have no doubt about that. I think the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Nigel Dodds) made the proper point that we do not want a hard border in the Irish sea between one part of our kingdom and another. That is a different point, I think, from the one made by the hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams).

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[Anna Soubry]

The right hon. Lady represents an area of the country that I know quite well; I am from north Nottinghamshire—from Worksop—and I also represent the constituency of Broxtowe. It is often quite peculiarly unique, and perhaps a little bizarre, that those who complain most about immigration are in areas where there is actually very little of it. That is the point: it is about the fear of the stranger—the fear of the unknown—and we have a duty as Members of Parliament to make the positive case in our constituencies for immigration and to have these debates with our constituents.

It is true, and I agree, that in some parts of our country a large number of people have come in, but these are invariably Polish people, Latvians and Lithuanians who do the work that, in reality, our own constituents will not do. It is a myth that there is an army of people sitting at home desperately wanting to do jobs. The truth of the matter is that we have full employment, and we do control immigration. How do we control it? It is called the market. Overwhelmingly, people come here to work. When we do not have the jobs, they simply do not come.

Now, it is right, and I agree—this is a sad legacy of previous Labour Governments—that there has not been the investment in skills that this Government are now making, and they have a proud record on apprenticeships, by way of example. However, I say to the right hon. Lady that she must speak to the businesses in her constituency, and she must ask them, “Who are these people? Where have they come from? Why have you not employed locally?” I have done that with the businesses in my constituency, and some have told me that they have probably broken the law. They have gone out deliberately and absolutely clearly to recruit local people, and they have found that, with very few exceptions, they have been unable to fill the vacancies. They take grave exception to anybody who says that they undercut in their wages or do not offer people great opportunities. It is a myth, as I say, that there are armies of people wanting to work who cannot work because of immigration.

The huge danger of the argument being advanced by some Opposition Members, as the hon. Member for Streatham (Chuka Umunna) said, is that people play into a narrative that, instead of looking at other factors in life, turns to the stranger and—history tells us the danger of doing this—blames the foreigner, the unknown and the person with a different coloured skin or a different accent, when there are actually other reasons for the discomforts and the problems people have in their lives.

I say to Opposition Members that they should be proud of their fine tradition. What they should be doing is making the case for immigration and then saying this: “Suck it up!” No alternative has been advanced in this place other than the customs union and the single market. Let’s grab it—let’s do it and move on.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). I rise to speak to Plaid Cymru’s amendments to Lords amendment 2, which would clarify that “a customs union” was the customs union. Plaid Cymru campaigned to remain, and we have been consistent in our support for remaining within the customs union and the single market and, for that matter, for looking at the EEA.

The Government and the Labour party are facing some pretty difficult problems, and that is because reality is intruding. Labour is split, as the Secretary of State said the other day, and I am sure we all marvelled yesterday at the bit of negotiation in the Chamber between the Solicitor General and the former Attorney General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve). That shows me that both parties are intent on pursuing their own internal conversations as well as the matter in hand.

It is not quite one minute to midnight, but it is pretty close. Our European interlocutors are asking us to tell them what we want and they are still not getting an answer. I can say that for industry in Wales, for universities in Wales and for health in Wales, we certainly need an answer, and pretty sharply too. The question for us is this: what is happening in respect of divergence as time progresses? We are getting no real answers.

Last night, I was here late and I took a taxi home. On the way, I asked the taxi driver what he thought of yesterday’s proceedings. His answer, predictably, was, “Why haven’t we left yet? Just get on with it.” I then asked him what he would do about the Land Rover jobs and the problems with the Galileo programme, at which point he said, “You’re from Wales aren’t you? I went up Snowdon once.” That suggests to me that he has a promising career ahead of him as a Brexiteering MP evading the real questions that face us.

As I said in an earlier intervention, the arrangements for the north-south border in Ireland will be very instructive for the arrangements between the EU and the United Kingdom in general. We will see the adoption of certain north-south arrangements, which will inevitably mean that they are adopted in the rest of the UK. I think all Unionists would agree with me in that respect. I asked Pascal Lammy, when he gave evidence to the Brexit Committee, if he knew of any two countries with two customs regimes for different parts of their states. Of course, he said no. To me, that means the arrangements between Dublin and Belfast will be the same as the arrangements between Dublin and Holyhead, and for that matter between Dover and Boulogne. By the way, he was also asked about the effect of having no controls at all, which has been suggested by some Conservative Members. Quite reasonably, he said that abandoning all controls means we would have nothing to bargain with in trade negotiations.

We have heard of a cake Brexit, a red, white and blue Brexit, a hard Brexit, a Brexit for jobs and a green Brexit. My suggestion is for a Welsh cake Brexit, which would entail staying in the single market and the customs union. We have been consistently in favour of that, and it would suit our economy and the requirements we have for health, industry, universities and so on.

Today, the Labour party has an opportunity to defeat the Government. I think we would all love to see that. Instead, however, it seems to have decided to try to water down the Lords amendments and pave the way, eventually, for the Tories to steamroller through a hard Brexit. I do not think we will be supporting them in that.

[Richard Benyon]

This may sound breathtakingly naive to some Members, but I think there is an opportunity to reboot the debate on immigration. I think what concerned many of our constituents was the inability to control the numbers coming in. Now that they, rightly, believe there is an opportunity to have that control, it is up to us, on all sides of the House, to make the case for the reasoned and controlled immigration from which our economy and society benefits.

I rise to talk about environmental measures. In all the weighty subjects discussed today, some may say that is a trivial issue by comparison. I would say that it is not trivial at all: it is about the air we breathe, the rivers from which we get our drinking water and the kind of society we bequeath to future generations. The hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh), who is sadly not in her place, is a magnificent champion of the environment. She and I started on this issue from exactly the same point: we felt there was a lacuna, a vast hole or governance gap as some have called it, in the Bill.

In my few remarks on Second Reading, I talked about the importance of putting into British law the regulations and laws that have seen our beaches cleaned up and our rivers start to get to a stage where we can be proud of them, where they are achieving what they are supposed to as functioning ecosystems. We are protecting landscapes and doing something to reverse the disaster, the tragedy and the crisis of species decline. We need to replicate, in a bespoke British way, the kind of measures we have benefited from in recent years. The Lords had a pretty good pitch at it, but there were flaws in their amendment.

Leaving the EU: Scotland and Wales Continuity Bills

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 18th April 2018 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

The hon. Gentleman is right that, as I have said, we need to provide certainty wherever we can, and he is right too that there is a political job to be done as much as there is a legal one. I have indicated to him that I take the view that the political way forward is better than the legal way forward, but there is a necessity to resolve the difference of opinion that currently exists over the way forward. If we cannot do that politically, we will have to do it legally, but I know which way I would prefer.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

In December, I asked the Secretary of State for Wales what he would do if he failed to gain legislative consent from Wales, and he replied, in his usual way, that he was very confident of success. And now the case is going to the Supreme Court. Is the Attorney General confident that this matter has been handled well, or even half-competently?

[The Attorney General]

Yes. Both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales and I are optimistic, and for good reason, and we will remain so in the hope that a sensible settlement can be reached.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Report stage: First Day: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th January 2018 Commons Chamber

[Anna McMorrin]

I am aware that discussions are taking place, but I am also aware that the UK Government promised to bring forward an amendment at this stage but have not done so. So where is that trust?

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Will the hon. Lady agree that a symbol of how seriously this is being taken by the Welsh Government and Welsh parties and in Scotland is the fact that consideration is now being given to continuity Bills to ensure that those powers are retained? In fact, my colleague Steff Lewis in the Assembly will be presenting just such a Bill tomorrow morning.

[Anna McMorrin]

Yes, that is exactly right, and something I am coming on to. Just today, the Welsh First Minister has said he will take steps to protect Welsh powers after Brexit if UK Ministers do not change the Bill, stating that the Prime Minister’s plan to accumulate all the powers from Brussels in London is a “fundamental assault on devolution”.

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[Ross Thomson]

I was not talking about the questions asked but about the answer given. That is the broken record. The First Minister has always had the opportunity to accept the result of 2014. She never has and she never will. That is why independence transcends everything else for the SNP. It does not speak in the national interest, but only ever in the nationalist interest.

To conclude, powers will come back from Europe and will be exercised directly in Scotland by the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Government Ministers. I know that the Scottish Government do not have a great track record when it comes to managing things in Scotland, so I understand their trepidation about any other powers going to the First Minister. That is no doubt why they want to keep all those powers in Brussels.

At least those of us on the Government side actually want devolution—not the kind of crazy centralisation that we have seen from the SNP. That is the hallmark of its Government and of the party here. That is why on this side we will stand up for Scotland and deliver for Scotland.

[Hywel Williams]

I shall return, for a moment, to the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.

I rise to speak to amendments 12 and 13 and the consequential 11 in my name and those of my hon. Friends. Amendment 12 to clause 19 would require the UK Government to gain the consent of the sitting devolved Administrations before the Bill came into force. At this stage, hon. Members should not rehearse previous arguments or submit previous amendments, so following my attempted amendment on day one of Committee which also sought to require the legislative consent of the devolved Administrations, I have addressed the critical point raised by other Members about Northern Ireland.

At the time of that previous amendment, there was no Northern Ireland Assembly to grant consent to the Bill and that, unfortunately, remains the case. My amendment, therefore, sets out that consent is required from all devolved Administrations unless direct rule is in place or the Administration have been formally suspended or dissolved for reasons other than recess or an election. Across the House, many of us would like the Northern Ireland Assembly to be up and running and serving its people once again, but if that was still not the case once the Bill was enacted, the amendment would still require the consent of the other Administrations.

To echo the Under-Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union, the hon. Member for Worcester (Mr Walker), this Bill is about continuity, certainty and control. It is now clear that the convention of gaining legislative consent is flawed, as it has been held to be just that: a convention. In contrast, the devolved Administrations have come to see it as a normal and required aspect of legislative processes. It seems to me that until recently, at least in how the process worked from day to day, that was also the view of the Westminster Government, who have sought legislative consent from the nations on hundreds of occasions since devolution.

The Minister has now confirmed that his Government are seeking legislative consent for this Bill as well. Given their own consistent actions, I am mystified about why they do not wish the principle of consent to be anywhere in the Bill—unless, of course, they plan to renege on that commitment, too. If I were a cynic, I might suspect that the Government here are happy enough to request consent as long as there is no risk that it might be refused, as might happen in this case. That is the Catch 22: consent is there only when it is granted.

I also note that hon. Members, including me, have repeatedly asked Ministers what would happen were consent to be refused. In response there has consistently been—well, no response at all. One case in point will suffice. At Welsh questions on 13 December, I asked the Secretary of State for Wales:

“What recent discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on a legislative consent motion for the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill.”

I added:

“I have asked the Secretary of State a number of times, both orally and in writing, what would happen if the National Assembly for Wales were to withhold its consent for the withdrawal Bill, and he has gone from looking hopelessly Panglossian to being unsure, evasive and even furtive. Will he now tell the House what would happen if the National Assembly for Wales withheld its consent for the Bill?”

His answer made my case—that the Government were either clueless or evasive—for me:

“I am optimistic that our work with the Welsh Government will lead to a legislative consent motion.”—[Official Report, 13 December 2017; Vol. 633, c. 381.]

That was all: hopeless optimism and no real answer. Our leaving the EU has been characterised as taking back control, but surely to deny the sitting devolved Administrations their fair say on whether the Bill should be passed goes against the three principles of the Bill that the Minister set out: to provide continuity and certainty and to take back control. Control for whom?

I turn now to amendment 13 to clause 11, which also stands in my name and those of my hon. Friends. It is clear that the Bill in its current form would weaken the devolution settlements that the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have enjoyed for 20 years. Even this Government have made it clear that clause 11 is not good enough and said that it will be amended. Our amendment seeks to guarantee that any future frameworks respect the democratic accountability of the devolved legislatures by being based on established conventions and practices that will not be adjusted without the consent of these institutions. That is the moot point: it is matter of consent.

The amendment holds that

“flexibility for tailoring policies to the specific needs”

of the nations should be allowed, as is currently enjoyed under EU rules, and—most crucially—that these frameworks would

“lead to a significant increase in decision-making powers for the devolved administrations.”

Before Christmas, the Scottish Secretary gave a strong commitment that clause 11 would be amended on Report, based on the criticisms from across the Committee of the whole House. Unsurprisingly, I suppose, the Government have U-turned on this promise and failed to table any amendments that address the concerns about devolution raised by Members from across the House. What is even more striking is that this was brought to the Government’s attention again two days before the deadline for tabling amendments, yet they failed to act. In this, they have merely confirmed my point in an earlier debate that it appears they still have not accepted that the UK is a unitary nation and that we have more than one Parliament within the British state.

The Welsh Government cannot just continue to hope that something might turn up, waiting in hope for this Tory Government to see reason, so I am glad that the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) noted that the First Minister had at last made a statement. I would also be glad if he could agree to the proposal for a continuity Bill that my friend in the Assembly, Steff Lewis, is bringing forward tomorrow. My party’s position in the long run is clear—we want the people of Wales to run their own affairs—but in the interim our sincerely held view is that we need a collaborative procedure for the creation of UK-wide frameworks to ensure good governance for the people of Wales.

Given that the Government are so determined to press ahead and remove us from the already functioning EU frameworks, these UK-wide frameworks will have a significant impact on the existing devolved settlements and therefore must be created jointly by all the sitting Governments, and not be dictated by Ministers of the Crown here. This is only the first step to ensuring that devolution is not just respected but upheld during the upheaval that the Government are creating by leaving the European single market and customs union.

[Anna McMorrin]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that systems are already in place under which the Welsh and UK Governments negotiate together on EU discussions? UK Ministers are Ministers of the Crown, as are Welsh Ministers. That is already in place and just needs to continue. The amendment is necessary if it is to continue.

[Hywel Williams]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. It brings me to the very point I was going to make. The Joint Ministerial Committee (EU Negotiations), to which she was referring, had a very rocky start. Some hon. Members will know that it met last February and then not again until October. During that time, momentous events were taking place here. Huge changes were being made in the relationship between Wales and the EU, and in the United Kingdom’s relationship with the EU. However, the JMC, the very mechanism that was supposed to elicit the views of Welsh Ministers—and Scottish and Northern Irish Ministers, for that matter—did not meet. I am glad to say that since that suspension it seems to have recovered somewhat: the October meeting was much more positive.

European Convention on Human Rights: UK Membership

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 26th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Attorney General]

On my hon. Friend’s last point, if only that were true. I do not think there is the simplicity that he suggests there is on that point. He is of course right that ECHR principles contribute to European Union via the charter, but that is not the same as putting together the European convention on human rights and European law and saying that they are indistinguishable and indivisible from each other. That is not the position.

In relation to deportation, the difficulty we often face, as my hon. Friend will know, is the interpretation of article 8 of the convention, which deals with the right to a family life. That is a good example of the way in which rights drawn up perfectly sensibly in the convention can be extended beyond where they were meant to go, or of how the balancing exercise at the heart of all human rights law is not conducted in what he and I would consider to be a sensible way.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

In his reply to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Joanna Cherry), the Attorney General conceded that there would be substantial proposals in respect of devolution, but that there would also be “full consultation”. Does he accept that it is not a matter of full consultation, but of fundamental change to the way that the Welsh Assembly and the other Assemblies actually operate, so how will they operate?

[The Attorney General]

As I have said, we will have to wait for the proposals to be brought forward before it is sensible to discuss them in detail, but the hon. Gentleman has my undertaking, as he has had that of other Ministers, that when the proposals are brought forward, there will be a full conversation about how the devolution aspects of such proposals will be managed.

RSPCA (Prosecutions)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Tuesday 29th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Hywel Williams (in the Chair)]

Order. There are 10 right hon. and hon. Members seeking to catch my eye. I intend to start the winding-up speeches at 10.40 am, so I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members to keep their speeches brief, at about four minutes please—but it is, of course, up to their own discretion—and for interventions to be short and to the point.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Bore da. Mae’n bleser gwasanethu o dan eich cadeiryddiaeth am y tro cyntaf, Mr Williams. It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I shall be uncharacteristically brief because a number of others want to speak.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) said that he was not going to use the H-word this morning, but he did not say what it meant. May I suggest that it possibly means hypocrisy? We are asked to believe that the apostles of cruelty, who for many years have campaigned in the House to keep gratuitous killing as part of hunting, now want to be compassionate to animals, and to ensure that the animal societies have enough money to prosecute cases. That is not convincing.

I am delighted, however, to see that the hon. Gentleman has broken cover. During his election campaign, he described himself as a chief executive of the Countryside Alliance, but he did not go into the details of his involvement in campaigning in this House on one subject alone that the Countryside Alliance took up: halting the great reform in animal welfare that is the stopping the killing of animals for fun and amusement.

I speak from a constituency that had an MP, Peter Freeman, who introduced a Bill in 1935 to ban hunting with dogs. It took a long time for Parliament to agree that the practice was unacceptable, along with bear-baiting and other barbarous activities that use animals as objects for sport and entertainment, but we have got that far, and those who lost that debate are coming back now and trying to refight the battle by attacking the splendid work of the RSPCA. It was absolutely right to prosecute—the law had been broken.

If the hon. Gentleman wants to save the charity money so that it can concentrate on its other work, he should persuade his friends to stop breaking the law. As the Hunting Bill went through the House, he and others sought to introduce amendments, which Members generously accepted, saying that perhaps they were genuine or there were special conditions here. All kinds of loophole were put into the law, which hunters have since used every possible means to exploit. We need another Bill. We need to define what the will of the population of this country is, and it is to take the gratuitous cruelty out of hunting. There is no objection to people dressing up and charging around the countryside following a trail, if they want to.

[Hywel Williams (in the Chair)]

Order. Will the hon. Gentleman address the subject of the debate, which is the role of the RSPCA in prosecutions?

[Paul Flynn]

The RSPCA is a charity with a splendid record of investigating cruelty against animals. We have come to a situation—I will conclude on this point—where a case has drawn attention because of a particular prosecution involving high-profile people, including the Prime Minister of the land, who is a member of the hunt, and all we have today is the malice and spite of the pro-hunting lobby fighting again. Let them have a debate in this House to restore hunting as it was in the past. They cannot do that because they know they lack a majority, as people of good will and sense in their own party also want to see hunting continue to be banned. That ban must be strengthened and reinforced.

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[Simon Hart]

I emphasise that nowhere in any of my comments have I ever suggested that the RSPCA should not be allowed to prosecute. The hon. Lady is misleading the House by suggesting that that is what I am recommending. I am recommending that the process needs to be reviewed, not the policy.

[Hywel Williams (in the Chair)]

Order. I think I heard the hon. Gentleman say that the hon. Lady was misleading the House. She certainly was not, or I would have told her so.

[Simon Hart]

If I did, I did so in error. I know that the hon. Lady will take my comments in the spirit in which they were intended.

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[Caroline Lucas]

The hon. Lady is right: the RSPCA began that review before the Charity Commission mentioned anything.

I welcome the opportunity both to put on the record my understanding of how the Heythrop hunt prosecution and other prosecutions demonstrably further the pursuit of the RSPCA’s charitable objectives, and to represent the large number of constituents who have written to me, as to many hon. Members, about the importance of protecting the RSPCA’s important legal work.

[Hywel Williams (in the Chair)]

We need to start the winding-up speeches at 10.40 am. I call Cheryl Gillan—briefly.