S4C

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

When I requested this debate on the future funding of S4C, I had not anticipated that events would move so quickly. It is fair to say that for many in Wales, the future funding arrangements for S4C have been a very visible and easily understood example of the hard choices that we as a country now face in dealing with the deficit and the debt problems. This coalition must get to grips with those issues and the mess that the previous Labour Government left us with.

No one can deny that S4C has an important place in the cultural landscape of Wales. It is important to be aware that the way in which the channel came into being is a key reason why its future funding arrangements are extremely important for many people in Wales. After all, it is the only Welsh language broadcaster in the world. Let me give a bit of historical context. The channel was launched in 1982 following a long and very public campaign, which was supported by all strands of Welsh society. It is worth noting that the decision to establish S4C was taken by a Conservative Government back in 1980.

Despite all the doubts that were expressed about the viability of a Welsh television channel, it is important to note that initially S4C proved to be a great success. The success of the channel in the early years was very much a reflection of the fact that there was a mix of Welsh programmes during the peak hours and Channel 4 programming that also attracted non-Welsh speakers. There is no doubt that the initial few years of S4C were very successful. There was a period in the 1980s and 1990s in which audience figures were often in excess of 150,000 for peak-time viewing.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

On a point of order, Mrs Brooke. May we adjourn the debate for a moment because there is a Division in the main Chamber?

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[Annette Brooke (in the Chair)]

May I point out that interventions should be short? Mr Guto Bebb, you must watch how much time you are leaving for the Minister to respond when accepting interventions.

[Hywel Williams]

On a point of order, Mrs Brooke. This debate is hugely important for Wales, and for once Welsh MPs have the opportunity to say something of significance at a time when doing so will have some effect. Is there any way it is within your powers to award us double injury time, given that we have had so much disruption?

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Further to that point of order, Mrs Brooke. This is a very important debate because one of Mrs Thatcher’s great reforms was to try to ensure that the Welsh language was not a party political matter and that it was put in a place where we could all agree consensually on the subject. Now that the Government have decided to play fast and loose with the Welsh language in this way, is it not appropriate that we should have a longer period to debate the subject? That would allow all hon. Members who have come along to show an interest in the issue the opportunity to contribute their thoughts.

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[Guto Bebb]

I acknowledge that there were deeper reasons for establishing S4C, but we must also recognise that the channel needs to serve the people of Wales, whether they are Welsh speakers, Welsh learners or non-Welsh speakers. There are question marks over whether the viewing figures are disappointing at times and whether the channel is doing what it should be doing. The feeling that the channel has moved away from the people it is supposed to serve is demonstrated, I believe, in the campaign that we have seen during the past few weeks in response to the potential threat to the channel. Even the Welsh Language Society, which no one could doubt is committed to the channel, is arguing for fair funding and a new S4C, because it believes that the current channel is perhaps not performing as it should.

When we talk about S4C, we often mention the wider cultural and economic implications, but it is interesting to note that the channel’s economic contribution has changed considerably over the past 20 years. The way that it once created new industries in parts of west and north-west Wales has certainly changed dramatically, and the loss of the Barcud studios in Caernarfon is an indication of that change and shows that the economic argument needs to be looked at again.

It is crucial that we move on and consider the future challenges that we face. Last night it was announced that the BBC would be taking over the funding of the channel, so there is now a need for clarity on the nature of the proposed settlement. We should acknowledge that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has accepted the argument for having S4C, which I appreciate. It is likely that the channel’s funding will be transferred to the BBC from 2014, so I would like to ask the Minister a few questions on what we have heard in the media and from the Chancellor this afternoon.

Will the funding for S4C be safeguarded within the BBC, and by what mechanism? It is all very well saying that the money will be forthcoming from the BBC licence payer, but by what mechanism will the S4C budget be protected within that licence fee? We are all aware that during the past four months the BBC has announced a 17% cut in its programming for S4C, with very little consultation, so I would like some clarification on that point. With regard to my earlier point on plurality and editorial independence, if there is a change in the funding mechanism for the channel, it is imperative that there is clarity about editorial and programming independence. I am sure that the Department can respond to that point.

Despite what I have said about S4C’s economic contribution, the channel does play a key role in supporting the cultural industries in Wales, especially independent television producers. If a pot of money from the BBC licence fee is to be made available for S4C, would the Minister clarify whether it will be ring-fenced for the independent producers, rather than swallowed by the BBC? Finally, we need assurances on the future funding for the channel, because if the decision for the BBC to take responsibility for that funding is to go ahead, I would like to know where we will stand not only in 2014, but in 2016 and beyond.

[Hywel Williams]

Before the hon. Gentleman concludes his remarks, would he tell Members whether he agrees with the scale of the cuts—25%—that have been reported? What is his opinion on that matter?

[Guto Bebb]

I have made it fairly clear to many constituents that I believe that a cut in S4C’s funding can be justified, as long as it is in keeping with the general cuts that the Department is facing. Having spoken with numerous television companies in Wales, I believe that the feeling is that, with greater efficiency, a cut of around 20% is manageable, but that anything more would be problematic. I hope that the cut will be about 20%, and no more than 25%.

I could ask the Minister many more questions, but I think that he has probably realised from the debate that there is a degree of concern about the transparency of the announcements, which I believe is no fault of the Department—the BBC got hold of the story. However, we need some clarity on the announcement. I have asked several questions, but I should be delighted if he would expand on those and comment on the critical issues that have been raised by other Members. Ultimately, we need to remember that we are all here because we are convinced of the need for a television channel broadcasting in Welsh and feel that, whatever settlement is made as a result of today’s announcements, it should be a long-term settlement, not a short-term response to a current fiscal crisis.

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[Mr Vaizey]

I will use my hon. Friend’s intervention to make it absolutely clear that my hon. Friends have been assiduous in putting the case for S4C, and they have been not a little successful in doing so. If anyone is to be accused of contempt for S4C, it is certainly not Conservative Members in Wales; as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberconwy noted, S4C was established by a Conservative Government. I do not want to make the debate any more heated, so I will not comment on the chair’s specific remarks—my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North will have to forgive me, but discretion is the better part of valour. I will point out, however, that we are not a “London Government” but the Government of the United Kingdom, and we have to make decisions with the interests not only of the Welsh people at heart, but of the people of the whole United Kingdom.

[Hywel Williams]

Would the Minister tell Members when the chairman of S4C and the Welsh Assembly Government’s Minister for Heritage were informed of the Government’s decision?

[Mr Vaizey]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman an answer off the top of my head, but I will do so as soon as my officials make that clear to me. Alternatively, I can let him know in writing, or by answering a written parliamentary question.

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[Mr Vaizey]

I was not taking interventions because I wanted to finish my point, but I will take one now.

[Hywel Williams]

May I point out that the Chancellor today announced that the funding for the London Olympics of £9.3 billion will be maintained, that there will be capital spending on Tate Modern, the British Museum and the British Library—all in London—and that the Arts Council England and Sport England budgets will be reduced, but only by 15%? Those institutions are of huge cultural significance to the United Kingdom in general and specifically to England, yet a similar institution in Wales, S4C, is being cut by 25%. How can the Minister defend that position?

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Gentleman knows that the 25% cut is the same as the Department’s cut, and he will no doubt be delighted, given how he wants to portray the situation, that culture is a devolved matter for Wales. However, let us also discuss future arrangements. [Interruption.] I want to move on to a new point.

People have talked about a lack of consultation. The BBC will not take over responsibility for S4C until 2013-14. The Welsh Affairs Committee has announced an inquiry into S4C, so there will be plenty of time for people to make representations about the situation. [Interruption.] Let me set out a few markers so that when interventions are made by the Opposition they can be made in a timely and forensic fashion.

First, the editorial independence of S4C will be guaranteed, regardless of the fact that it will be funded by the BBC. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), absolutely 100% of the content budget will be spent on independent production, as it is at present. That, of course, is the content budget, and S4C obviously has an administration budget as well. The BBC will not be in a position to siphon off money for promotion on BBC channels. It will be for the BBC and S4C, in the two years that they have to put the arrangement in place, to talk through the exact details of how the money will be used.