Government Policies (Wales)

Debate between Huw Irranca-Davies and Guto Bebb

Wednesday 26th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy). I congratulate the Secretary of State for Wales on his positive and upbeat view of the situation in Wales, which can be contrasted with the doom and gloom from the Opposition. Indeed, I shudder at the possibility of the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) becoming the Secretary of State for Wales. He would be our own version of Private Frazer, going around saying, “We’re all doomed.”

In effect, what is happening in Wales is a success story, and that is hurting the Opposition because that is not what they want to hear. They want to claim that it is only the Government who can make a difference to the people of Wales, but the truth is that it is this Government who are showing quite clearly that it is the people of Wales who can make the difference. It is the people who are willing to take responsibility for themselves and to make a success of their lives. Effectively, this Government are giving the people of Wales that opportunity; they are not saying that they can depend on the Government for hand-outs.

The Opposition should be truly ashamed that they are highlighting figures in relation to poverty levels in Wales. Labour has been in government at a local or national level in Wales for the past 100 years. Where the Labour party is strongest, poverty is at its greatest. It should look at the valleys of south Wales and feel truly ashamed of what it has done to our proud nation. Labour in Wales has failed, failed and failed again. This coalition is giving people a sense of honour and integrity and a belief in their ability to make a difference once more.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

rose—

[Guto Bebb]

I will not take an intervention from the hon. Gentleman. It is about time that the Labour party heard some hard truths about the way it has failed Wales time and again. That failure in Wales is replicated in Scotland. The Scots have seen through the failure of Labour; it is about time that the people of Wales did the same.

The people of Wales should turn to the Conservative party and this coalition, as we are showing people that we can make a difference to their situation. We can ensure that we create employment. In my constituency, unemployment has fallen by 42% since the coalition came to power, and we should welcome that fact. I am proud of every single one of those jobs. My constituency had 13 years of a Labour MP, and it is not hard to guess what happened to the unemployment figures—they went up. With this coalition, unemployment is falling. We have an increase in the number of people employed and self-employed in my constituency, and we should be proud of every single one of those individuals.

The Opposition always say that they can make a difference to Wales, but they believe that the difference lies in the hands of Government. We believe that difference can be made by people setting up their own businesses and making a success of those businesses. Last week, the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), visited two businesses in my constituency. We failed to visit a third because the owner was in London winning an award. That owner is not just the UK butcher of the year but a man who started a business that now employs 60 members of staff—[Interruption.] The Labour party is laughing at entrepreneurial job creation in my constituency. My hon. Friend then visited the Welsh food centre, which was established two years ago and now employs 60 members of staff. It is the largest privately led project in north Wales and has been receiving funding from the European Union. It is a fantastic success story—somebody had a vision; they were willing to implement it and take a risk with their own money. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) is chuntering from a sedentary position. He does not understand what running a business means, let alone appreciate the difficulties. It is that type of success story that is changing lives in my constituency.

The success of small businesses in my constituency has been helped by the fuel duty freeze and the cuts implemented by this Government. The Labour party, by contrast, has bled our rural communities dry with its fuel duty escalator. My constituency also has a significant number of people of above-average age, including a lot of pensioners. Despite the economic inheritance that the Labour party gave us, those pensioners have been protected by the triple lock. The degree of respect that they have been shown by the coalition contrasts with the insult of the 75p pension increase provided by the Labour party. Labour Members say that their party looks after the poorest in society, but it was willing to forget our pensioners. In difficult economic times, the coalition has not forgotten our pensioners, and those people will remember that at the general election.

A key point to remember is the way we have tried to be reformist in difficult times. The Government’s introduction of the single-tier pension is immensely important to a constituency such as mine, which has a significant number of self-employed people. In such times, the coalition Government are not scared of taking long-term decisions that will make a real difference to my constituents’ lives. We hear complaints from Labour Members about changes to the welfare state, but we know why: they like a compliant, complicit population. The truth of the matter is that the welfare state in Wales was not working and we needed to ensure that changes were made.

One of the key successes of welfare reform throughout the United Kingdom, although perhaps not so much in Wales, is the Work programme. Its huge success will grow, as National Audit Office reports clearly show. Labour Members often talk about the Work programme supporting the lowest hanging fruit, but no one—not a single individual—accesses the Work programme unless they have been unemployed for at least 12 months. Compare and contrast that with the situation under Jobs Growth Wales which, by the way, I have supported and publicised to my business community. Under that programme, a person can be a graduate today and on Jobs Growth Wales tomorrow, but someone cannot get on the Work programme until they have been unemployed for 12 months, so it genuinely helps the hardest to reach. Jobs Growth Wales has done a good job, but it is not an attempt to support such individuals. We have a success on our hands—

Commission on Devolution in Wales

Debate between Huw Irranca-Davies and Guto Bebb

Thursday 3rd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I fully accept that. Indeed, I was recently at a CBI event in Flintshire at which exactly the same points were made, albeit not specifically in relation to the Silk commission, about how devolution has to work for Wales, while also recognising that small and large businesses—especially in parts of north Wales such as my constituency, where one can reach the English border in 45 minutes or less—must be treated equally to those across the United Kingdom. The commission that is being established will look into those issues. I would encourage businesses in my constituency and across Wales to engage fully, as I did to the CBI audience in Flintshire recently.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that even though the commission’s terms of reference do not include the West Lothian question and the Barnett formula, it would be hard for the commission entirely to ignore them? It must proceed with some cognisance of the additional work being done across Government, because otherwise its conclusions may be aborted before they have even been published.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for what was again a thoughtful comment. It is recognised that there is a debate to be had on the Barnett formula between the Government in Cardiff and the Government in London. Where the Welsh Assembly wants to speak up on behalf of the people of Wales about the implementation of Holtham, that is the proper way to proceed. I welcome the fact that the coalition Government have announced movement on the West Lothian question. It has received a lot of attention in this debate, but when there was a Back-Bench motion on the West Lothian question, my hon. Friend the Member for Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire (Simon Hart) and I were the only two Welsh Members present. However, it is important to take the issue into consideration, because ultimately—I think it was the hon. Member for Alyn and Deeside (Mark Tami) who also said this—it is important that, for example, Members from north Wales should have a voice on health issues in England. As someone who is dependent on health services provided in Liverpool and other parts of England, I sympathise with that view. Another argument, however, asks why we should have a voice on the health service in England if we do not allow any English Member to have a voice on the health service in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. I do not doubt that his comment is accurate.

Another reason for welcoming the announcement is that it creates a cross-party and non-party commission, which is something very fresh and new in the Welsh context. As I have said, however, it will not work unless the people of Wales take an interest in the issue. I would therefore stress that we, as Members, need to go out and persuade our own electorate to take an interest in the commission and its work.

A second reason why we need to welcome the commission is the fact that although there have been numerous commissions and inquiries into the powers of the Welsh Assembly Government and how it should work, the Silk commission is different because it has been created by the Westminster Government. The Holtham commission produced a superb piece of work. I have read the documentation, and the arguments in the research are persuasive, showing that Wales has for several years suffered a degree of unfairness in the funding provided by central Government. The degree of unfairness was not as great as was claimed by Plaid Cymru Members, but the main point—that the Barnett formula was unfair—was, I think, proven by the report.

The Silk commission is different and more advantageous. Because it is a commission established by the coalition Government in Westminster, the ability to act on its findings is stronger. We are still waiting for the Holtham recommendations to be implemented, but our ability to act on the findings of the Silk commission is clear, which is another reason why we should welcome its establishment.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for being so generous in giving way. Having praised the Holtham report, as I do, does he agree that in respect of the Silk commission, one thing that we do not need to wait for is putting a funding floor in place to protect the interests of Wales as we go forward? As the Secretary of State said, we could be expecting to receive the Silk commission report just before the next election, perhaps just after it or even a bit longer after it. If we got on with the Holtham recommendations and put the funding floor in place, we would at least be doing our job for our constituents right now.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. Given that an intergovernmental approach has been applauded by the First Minister, it is imperative for him to get down to the Treasury as soon as possible to discuss the issue. We are often told that there is a respect agenda between Westminster and Cardiff. It is not therefore for us to say to the First Minister that he must act now, but I would certainly recommend that the discussions should start—and the sooner they start, the better.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

I am slightly surprised by that intervention, because I thought it was self-explanatory. The sooner the discussions between the Government in Cardiff and the Treasury are concluded, the better. [Interruption.] My understanding is that this is a matter for the Welsh Government and the Treasury. I am sure that the pressure is being brought to bear by my Front-Bench colleagues.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Guto Bebb]

Once again, yes.

[Huw Irranca-Davies]

I am genuinely trying to be helpful. I think the hon. Gentleman is saying that he would support the principle of the Holtham commission— that there should be a funding floor at this time. I understand what he says about the respect agenda. As a strong pro-devolutionist myself, I say that the respect cuts both ways. If parliamentarians like the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friends were to express our clear opinion today, it would help our Welsh Assembly Government colleagues and the First Minister to come to a rapid conclusion, while also assisting the hon. Gentleman’s Front-Bench colleagues.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. For clarity, let me say that I am previously on record as stating that the Holtham report was persuasive, and the sooner the recommendations were implemented the better—recognising, of course, the financial constraints faced by the Westminster Government. I hope that fully clarifies the matter.

Before I turn to the detail, let me say that when we talk about the process of devolution in the Welsh context, there is often a misunderstanding about exactly what the people of Wales are saying. Many Members will claim that the result of the referendum in March was a clear indication of the will of the people of Wales. Like many of my colleagues, I was surprised by the extent of the support for change, but it must be said that that change happened on the basis of a comparatively low turnout. I am not one to argue that those who do not turn out have an equal voice: democracy means that people must take part in order to ensure that their voices are heard. However, I think it should concern all of us who want to ensure that we have an Assembly that works for the benefit of the people of Wales that only 35% or 36% of the Welsh population turned out to vote in that referendum.

There is currently a disengagement with the political process in Wales, which, unfortunately, is more pronounced in relation to elections to the Welsh Assembly than it is in relation to Westminster elections. For example, I was elected to the Aberconwy constituency on a turnout of 70%, one of the highest turnouts in any Welsh constituency for a Westminster election. The turnout for the Assembly election was about 40%. Those who argue that the voice of the people of Wales was heard clearly back in March are actually arguing that a turnout of 35% and a yes vote of 60% constitute a clear democratic mandate. They do not. A great deal of work remains to be done to persuade the people of Wales that the Assembly is working on their behalf, and I think that the commission will have an opportunity to engage with them.

Other myths are being peddled by those who do not support the Assembly. There are plenty of them in Wales, and they tend to hear what they want to hear. They say that when they mention the Assembly, people complain that it is not delivering on health. I think that that is true, and it is a complaint that we hear on the doorstep. They say that people also complain that educational standards in Wales are extremely poor in comparison with those in England and many other parts of the European Union. I think that that is true as well, and again we hear about it on the doorstep. However, I believe that the enemies of the Welsh Assembly often misunderstand complaints about its performance. They consider those complaints to be an indication that people are fed up with the Assembly and do not want it, but I do not agree.

I think that the people who complain are not dissimilar to a mother who criticises a badly behaved son or daughter. The mother will be more than happy to complain about the behaviour of that son or daughter, because after all she has a right to do so, but when she hears someone else complain about it, she immediately goes on the defensive. I think that the same applies to the attitudes of people in Wales towards the Assembly. Yes they criticise, yes they complain, but ultimately there is a feeling—which I think those who are unhappy about the Assembly must take on board—that it is “our” Assembly. Perfect? No, it is not. Could do better? Undoubtedly. But there is, I believe, an acceptance that it is the Welsh Assembly, and I think that those who are unhappy about the way in which it is developing should engage in the process that we are discussing to ensure that we have a better performing Assembly to serve the people of Wales.

The first part of the Silk commission’s work will relate to fiscal responsibility—an issue that I believe we should consider seriously. Yes, the Assembly has a responsibility to answer to the people of Wales, and yes, its members are elected by the people of Wales, but ultimately we need a degree of accountability for fiscal decisions. Time and again during the 18 months for which I have been a Member of Parliament, we have heard members of Opposition parties criticise the cuts being made at Westminster, and we have heard Assembly Members criticise them as well. It is easy for them to make such criticisms: there is no need for them even to think about the deficit, because it is not the Assembly’s responsibility. The cuts being made in Wales—which are much lower than expected, and lower than cuts in many other parts of the United Kingdom—are being made in a context, and the problem with the current set-up in the Welsh Assembly is that that context is missing from its debates. That is why I think we should think about fiscal responsibility.

Welfare reform provides a useful analogy. The changes proposed in the Welfare Reform Bill, which has completed its passage through the House of Commons and is currently in the other place, are built on the concept of giving people who receive state benefits a degree of accountability and responsibility. There is a difficult argument to be had. I have been talking to housing associations in my constituency about the importance of ensuring that housing benefit is paid directly to claimants, to enable them to have the same respect and dignity as any other member of society in terms of paying rent and taking responsibility for their financial position. The same responsibility should apply to Governments. After all, the smallest community council in my constituency will raise local taxation, and I see no reason why the Welsh Assembly should not have the same degree of responsibility and accountability.

Having said that, it is important to point out that there are difficulties. The right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) is no longer present, but he made an important point about people commuting across the border to work in jobs in north Wales. One of the jewels of the Wales economy is the Airbus factory in Broughton, which is committed to apprenticeships and training, and giving young people from north-east Wales genuine employment opportunities. We should be proud of that, and we should also be proud of the support Broughton has received from the Welsh Assembly, but we cannot deny the fact that many of the workers at Broughton travel in from England—or that many of the workers at the Ellesmere Port factories producing Vauxhall cars travel in from north-east Wales.