Ukraine: Update

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 16th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend is as keen as I am to change the history on procurement. It is remarkable, when it comes to assisting Ukraine, how speedily we can get things into the field or adapt them, and how manufacturers seem magically to adapt things. There are lessons there. I had already started the process of accelerating the Challenger 3 programme last year—I did not want to take the gap in the middle of the decade —but of course, when we accelerate, we take risks. Nevertheless, I think that is important. I will definitely look at his suggestion, although the elephant in the room on the suggestion of accelerating procurement is His Majesty’s Treasury, which would have to reprofile the budget. As the time of the integrated review approaches, I shall engage with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Night after night, the Russians continue to fire missiles at the Ukrainian civilian population. We saw at the weekend the attack on the residential block in Dnipro, which has so far claimed at least 20 lives. Just before Christmas, the United States announced it would provide the Patriot missile system to Ukraine. What assessment has the Defence Secretary made of the impact that that will have on Ukraine’s ability to defend itself against those missiles, and what further capability could Ukraine use to mitigate further the effect of those frequent attacks, which are intended to destabilise the country and cut off the energy supply?

[Mr Wallace]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an observation on the powerful and enduring impact of those horrendous attacks. There are echoes of the V1 and V2 campaigns, with little intelligence targeting, by the looks of things, and an attempt to terrify people across Ukraine. Patriot has improved defence of the airspace: despite Russia’s claims, the vast proportion of those munitions still do not make it through, but the tragedy is that some do, and we would all like to work to make it 100% certain that none will.

The Patriot is a long-range anti-ballistic missile and interceptor, so it is probably more use at some stages against some of the more sophisticated unmanned aerial vehicles or missiles that could be fired, or are fired occasionally—we would all be worried about the next Iranian ballistic missiles if they were put in. What the Ukrainians need is volume of short-range and medium-range ammunition to deal with the whole range of UAVs. That is the real key. They might have the most sophisticated launchers in the world, but if they cannot afford the missiles, they will soon run out, as Russia is now finding.

Ukraine needs volume, better co-ordination and better targeting. The United Kingdom has helped; as I said in the House last time, we used our knowledge to advise and help them on how to layer their air defence better and prioritise the infrastructure they need to defend. The Russians are firing at so many targets that the Ukrainians need to start with a priority list, as they are now doing, and that is having an effect. That is why we now see Russia being more indiscriminate, just throwing in anything, so its attacks are less predictable and therefore harder to defend.

Mali: UN Peacekeeping Mission

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 14th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[James Heappey]

It absolutely will. The long-range reconnaissance patrolling will stop almost immediately and, on the next rotation, the force that follows on to deliver the draw-down will have everything needed within it for full force protection.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The UK deputy permanent representative told the UN Security Council on 10 October that the UK supports MINUSMA—we should pay tribute to the bravery of those troops, given the losses to which my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) referred—but said that there were questions about

“whether and how the mission can maintain a viable presence in Mali.”

Given the factors—political instability, the Wagner Group and others—that have led to withdrawal of French and UK troops and those of other nations, what is the Government’s view about the continued operation of MINUSMA in the circumstances in which it now finds itself?

[James Heappey]

That is a matter for the UN. As I said in response to the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey), our view is that the MINUSMA mission is stagnant. The political track has not been advancing for a number of years—since the first coup or, arguably, before that—and a very successful military mission has therefore been undermined by the lack of progress in Bamako. There is also a wider point: the mandate for that UN mission—like that of the UN missions in the Central African Republic and in the Democratic Republic of the Congo—is exclusively about peacekeeping, and if there is not a peace to keep, those missions can feel rather toothless as a consequence. We are communicating all those things in New York. As I said in response to a number of colleagues, we want to be very constructive. We feel like we have some understanding of what is going on alongside the French as penholders. We want to see a more cohesive approach to security in west Africa, with the security probably being delivered by the Accra initiative, the diplomatic and economic track being done by ECOWAS and the UN being ready to keep the peace once it is made.

Ukraine Update

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Thursday 20th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

We have trained 7,000 so far. We are on target to complete 10,000, and then another 20,000-plus next year. It often depends on whether the Ukrainians are able to give us the training pipeline. Some of these people will be coming off the frontlines. It is always a challenge, but we are in the right position. We are well supported by the international community, and it is making a difference. We are now looking at what we can do with larger units, by helping Ukraine to train at company and battalion level. That would probably happen within Europe.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

In describing Russia’s increased targeting of Ukraine’s energy infrastructure, which we learned this morning has led to restrictions on power supply, the Secretary of State referred to the sheer quantity of cruise missiles and drones that are being used in those attacks. Is it now a question of increasing the equipment and capability he has announced to the House today to enable Ukraine better to resist those attacks, or are there other capabilities—he referred to some—that could be supplied or that Ukraine has requested?

[Mr Wallace]

From the international community, for example, Ukraine has consistently requested some of Israel’s electronic warfare capability. It is regrettable that, at the moment, Israel has not chosen to do that. I will be seeing the Israeli ambassador in the next few weeks to try to press the case.

One of the challenges I have talked about is the proliferation of precision weapons into the hands of basically low-level troops. We have highly sophisticated, complex weapons that take months to make and were originally designed to shoot down fighter aircraft. When they are used against fairly cheap, mass drones, Ukraine will run out of them quicker than they can be replaced. That is one of the lessons, and it is why electronic warfare to jam, divert or take over these things plays an important part. That is why we will all be looking at our capabilities and thinking about future challenges. It is as much about how we are going to do that as about how we can help the Ukrainians. Right now, we are helping the Ukrainians, and what we have learned is coming back into our system for ourselves.

Ukraine

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Tuesday 11th October 2022 Commons Chamber

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Of course, the response to the situation in Ukraine is Government-wide; it involves the Foreign Office as much as the Ministry of Defence. Responsibility for the relationships that my hon. Friend mentions sits in the Foreign Office, and I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will have heard his comments.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Do the Government regard the Kerch bridge, which links Russia with Ukrainian territory seized by Russia in 2014, and which was attacked over the weekend, as a legitimate military target? Would the Minister care to contrast that target with the pictures we saw yesterday of a large missile crater in Kyiv, right next to a children’s playground?

[Alec Shelbrooke]

Of course, Crimea is Ukrainian territory that has been invaded. Any allegations about what happened at the bridge, and any questions about what is behind the attack, are for the Ukrainians to answer, but what happened at Kyiv is simply a war crime. We will make every effort to hunt down the people responsible and to bring them to justice.

Ukraine Update

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 5th September 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

There are two parts to that. Obviously, we do our best to make sure that the people of Russia understand what is going on, and I would be delighted to arrange a briefing for the hon. Gentleman, if he would like one. On the wider issue, we should not forget that, although this is not getting out of Russia, the Russian people are feeling it themselves. It is not possible to ignore the cemeteries, with lines and lines of graves, the exodus of international companies, or the fact that the standard of living is starting to drop in some parts. The problem is that, in a country whose Government do not really listen to, or care much about, their own people, I am not sure that has a major effect on the decision makers, but we need to never stop telling the Russian people what is actually going on.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Following the International Atomic Energy Agency visit to the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, Mr Rafael Grossi, the agency’s head, spoke out very strongly about the risks to the integrity and safety of the plant from the fighting that is taking place around it. We understand that the report will be out in a week or so, but what is the Government’s plan—indeed, what is the international community’s plan—to take forward the report’s recommendations? Does the Secretary of State think that the Russians understand the risks that are being taken with the safety of the plant through what has been going on, or does he feel that they do not care?

[Mr Wallace]

This is a personal view. Do I think Russia cares? Not really. I do not think it cares about anything that it is seeking to capture. It has destroyed Mariupol and killed and brutalised everyone who seems to get in its path. One of the anxieties of the Baltic states is that, historically, the defence plans were to hold an invading Russia and to try to get there in a number of weeks and push them back, but the Estonians and the Latvians will say, “We don’t have a couple of weeks, because look at what they do.” It is no accident that we saw, on the Chernobyl site, Russia deliberately using its forces to frighten, to demand attention and to potentially use it as a hostage.

I am pleased, to be fair, that they let the UN inspectors turn up. I am pleased that they were allowed to leave people behind. Of course, as I said in my statement, the fact that no international media were allowed to accompany them is obviously a worry, and that relates to the point made by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) about the BBC World Service, which is one of our best soft power tools globally. It is highly respected. I am of an age to remember the late President Gorbachev—who, we should not forget, was a significant force for change in Russia in his time—saying that he listened to the BBC World Service during the short coup when he was captured and it was the only place he got news from. In these days of social media, the BBC World Service can be a rock in a storm.

Ukraine Update

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 25th April 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend probably served in northern Germany, like me, where permanent presence was used as one of the most important deterrents to the then Soviet Union. We were not just there for the short term; we were there for a very long time. When we are asking NATO to come up with a long-term plan, it has to involve such things as the long-term containment of Russia. He is correct that the best defence is offence. Showing that we are well-equipped, capable, ready, deployable and deployed is one of the best ways of making President Putin cease what he is doing. I do not think that means NATO deploying outside of its borders, but it does mean ensuring that we are very quick to respond and are overmatching Russia in everything it wishes to explore, so that Putin does not dare do it.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

As this war has intensified, the distinction between providing defensive, as opposed to offensive weapons has largely disappeared, as increasingly heavy equipment is being transferred. The Secretary of State said previously to the House that he would support the provision of suitable aircraft to the Ukrainian air force. Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), what is the Secretary of State’s current assessment of the appetite of countries to provide to Ukraine suitable aircraft that could be used in this new phase of the conflict?

[Mr Wallace]

There are some that have an appetite; there are not many. Some of the equipment is quite old—a lot of the MiG-29s in the east come from the fall of the Berlin wall, so hon. Members can gauge their age. There are some useful ground attack aircraft in Europe and, as I say, I would defend any one of those nations’ options of deploying them. One of the ways that we could help to support them is by backfilling by supplying our Typhoons to patrol their skies and so on. The hunt is still on. If anyone comes forward, I am happy to support them. Sometimes they have been updated with third countries’ equipment, which gives those countries a veto, and I will work to persuade those third countries to release any holds on them as well.

Ukraine Update

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My hon. Friend makes some wise observations. Just on the jet issue, and on all lethal aid issues, it is, in a sense, for each individual country to make the unique choice that it has to make. I have the duty of defending this wonderful nation, and it is those people for whom I have to answer, and we have to calibrate our action as suits. If the Polish Government feel that the security threat is so acute that it requires them to do that, I would fully understand their decision and stand by them. Let us remember that the countries that will face the direct consequence of a successful Russia over Ukraine are the bordering countries, because we know that, in Putin’s mind, some of those are not genuine countries and some of those countries are the very places that he historically feels should either be punished or, indeed, coerced into his way of thinking.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I echo the thanks to the Secretary of State and his team. Will he pass on the House’s thanks to all his teams who are making this happen? On the Polish jets issue, it is, of course, a matter for Poland. Given that we are giving man-portable air defence systems and anti-tank weapons, does he regard the gift of aircraft as a defensive system, which is the word that he has used in his statement?

[Mr Wallace]

I think it depends on how those aircraft are used. If they are used as close air support to Kyiv, then it is obviously defensive. If a country is seeking to enter another sovereign territory, like the Russian air force is, then it is not. That is important to recognise, but, I am afraid, as I have said, it is a deeply bilateral decision for those countries. As a friend and ally to Poland, we would stand by its decision.

Support for Ukraine and Countering Threats from Russia

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd March 2022 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Not a single one of us in this House would not do anything that could be done to bring the slaughter in Ukraine to an end, and not a single one of us in this House does not feel a certain helplessness because we cannot make that happen, particularly when we think of the children. That makes it all the more important that we do everything else that we can to support the people of Ukraine in their hour of need.

First, the Government must continue supplying the weapons—do not tell us how; just carry on. Secondly, the sanctions must be tough, and they must remain in place. We must isolate Putin for the pariah that he has become. I say that because the only sure way to remove the risk presented in the long term not just to Ukraine but to the rest of Europe is for there to be a change of leadership in Russia. That may not happen today or in the next two years, but at some point the Russian people will say, “Why are we experiencing all these hardships for the sake of a war with our brothers and sisters in Ukraine, the purpose of which we do not understand?”

Thirdly, we must collect the evidence for the ICC. It is essential to bear witness to the crimes being committed. We can see them thanks to the courage of President Zelensky, who has been inspirational—any puppet that Putin installs in Kyiv will have no credibility—and thanks to the journalists who have stood by their posts, filing and broadcasting to counter the lies and disinformation that are as much a part of the war as the rockets that Russia is raining on the people of Ukraine. Fourthly, for those who are streaming across the border, it is the responsibility of all of us to offer them a warm welcome.

We must also think about what this means for the future, as was just said, because the world that we thought we understood has been turned upside-down. Now that President Putin has invaded Ukraine, who is to say with any confidence that he would not be prepared to do the same to the other countries that surround him? We have made a pledge to those who have joined NATO that an attack on one is an attack on all, and we will have to reinforce their defences with our presence to make clear to Russia that this is a line that it does not cross.

We need to invest more in military capability to be ready for the conflicts of the future. Look at the announcement made by Chancellor Scholz on Sunday—that would have been unthinkable even a month ago. We must rebuild our alliances with the European Union. This is no time to be falling out over fish or customs procedures, because, whether a country is in or out of the European Union, we are all Europeans, we face the threat together and we must be ready to make peace together when, one day, there is a change of the leadership in Russia.

What we are witnessing is an attack on the values that bind us together as democratic countries: the freedom to say what we think; the power to choose by whom we are governed; the ability to make those decisions free from the fear of violence at the hands of others; and hope. What we have to do is offer hope that, by those means, we can build a better and more peaceful world to hand on to our children and the children of Ukraine, who are uppermost in our thoughts today and in every day that is to come.

Ukraine

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 21st February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

My right hon. Friend makes a powerful point, and we should be true to our values. The Prime Minister was very clear at Munich that the point my right hon. Friend raises is absolutely the case. It is also the case that the NATO response to Russia—all 30 members—was very clear on that. We shall hold each other to that commitment, and I think it is absolutely right that now is the time to stand up and say, “These are our values and they are not up for compromise. We are not going to give a single inch and, fundamentally, we are not going to reward a bully.”

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State said a moment ago, about sanctions on Russia, “if it does something”. May I just press him on this point? We do not yet know for sure whether a full invasion will take place, but can he tell the House what the Government’s response would be if the action taken by Russia took the form of, say, a no-fly zone over Ukraine, blockading its ports, or repeated and significant cyber-attacks on Ukrainian institutions and Governments? In such circumstances, would the Government respond with the full sanctions that they have obviously been discussing?

[Mr Wallace]

I am grateful to the right hon. Member. First, let me make it clear that, as he knows, lots of sanctions are already in place, so these are additional sanctions on top of the raft of sanctions that the Government brought in after the illegal invasion and annexation of Crimea and, indeed, of Donbas. I think he is absolutely right that many of these aggressive moves, such as a no-fly zone—in other words, threatening the integrity of that sovereign state—or a blockade to free trade would absolutely warrant a response ranging from sanctions to other actions. I think we would look at that at the time, but I absolutely agree that Russia should be under no illusion that threatening the integrity of a sovereign nation in the air or at sea is exactly the same as threatening it on land.

Ukraine

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 17th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Mr Wallace]

First, there is a basket of sanctions that are prepared both by the United Kingdom and the United States. Indeed, the EU is addressing and formulating a package and, obviously, Sweden and Finland would be part of that. I cannot speak for Sweden and Finland about whether they would join NATO. One of the fundamentals of NATO is the open door policy. We have been clear on that, but, as I have said, I am even more clear that defending a country to choose is actually more important often than what it chooses. We enhance and work our relationship with Finland and Sweden through the joint expeditionary force, which is 11 nations—Scandinavian and Nordic, and Britain—working together and exercising together in the defence world. That is brilliant: it binds together the EU, NATO and other members to make sure that we can deter by being as professional as possible with our armed forces.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

In the recent negotiations, NATO rightly rejected the wholly unreasonable demands of Russia for the reasons that the Secretary of State has so clearly set out to the House, but it did indicate that it would be willing to talk about other matters. Does the Government support, for example, putting arms control and limits to military exercises on the table in any further discussions?

[Mr Wallace]

Certainly when it comes to arms control, we have always felt that arms controls are good things. I am old enough to remember the 1980s and the work people went into to get those, and it has been sad that Russia has breached a number of those treaties and the United States pulled out of the open skies treaty not so long ago. I think we should try to work towards getting back to a place where we can have more confidence in each other, first and foremost.

On exercising, first, NATO should exercise in order to keep itself at the best it can be for defence. I also think it is the right of a sovereign country to choose to exercise in its land. If Lithuania or Estonia wish to exercise militarily, either bilaterally or multilaterally, that is a choice for that country, and we are always happy to work together. I am not sure I want to give Russia a veto over where we exercise, but I am very supportive of making sure that we are as open as possible, so that people do not miscalculate when we do exercise and they recognise that it is an exercise rather than an operation.