Oral Answers to Questions

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

The Government invest £5 million a year in the local net zero hub programme. We have established the UK Infrastructure Bank, with an initial £12 billion of capital, for the twin goals of tackling climate change and levelling up, and it includes a specific loan facility for local government to deliver net zero. We are looking at other ways of enabling and encouraging local authorities to do more. The details of a devolution deal for retrofit pilots in Manchester and the west midlands will soon be worked out, and I look forward to that being pioneered.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

One risk to net zero is the delay in grid connections. The Chair of the Environmental Audit Committee wrote to the Secretary of State recently to highlight the problem of speculative applications for connections. These are applications that do not yet have planning permission and many never get it, but are clogging up the queuing system. What can be done to fix that?

[Graham Stuart]

The right hon. Gentleman, as so often, is absolutely right; this is a real issue. We have Nick Winser working on the transmission system and he will report next month. On the distribution level, to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, we will be coming up with a connections plan later this year and working with Ofgem to make sure that we have a system that weeds out projects that are clogging up the system and yet will never be delivered, and make sure that the ones that can be delivered get to the front of the queue.

Non-Domestic Alternative Fuel Payment Application Scheme Pass-through Requirement Regulations 2023

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Monday 15th May 2023 General Committees

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The explanatory memorandum states that intermediaries should pass on the payment and “must” follow the regulations in calculating the pass-through amount. The next paragraph, 7.8, states that if they do not pass through the whole amount,

“they must demonstrate to the end user that the amount they are passing on is just and reasonable”.

How much discretion is there to decide what a reasonable amount is? If it came to a civil debt, referred to in paragraph 7.11, would the court have any role in deciding whether the calculation was fair? I am trying to understand how that will work in practice.

[Amanda Solloway]

I believe that the right hon. Gentleman pre-empts what I am about to come on to.

The regulations extend the principle of the earlier regulations. They ensure that payments made following an application are subject to the same obligation to pass the financial benefit on to the end user. They also adopt the approach taken by the earlier regulations for this scheme, and for other energy schemes such as the energy bills support scheme and the energy bill relief scheme.

Let me explain exactly how these pass-through regulations work. They make it mandatory for inter-mediaries to pass through the financial benefit of the scheme to end users. That is needed because in some cases payments may be made to an intermediary and not to the end user of the energy. We need to ensure that payments can be passed on to the end user in a way that is fair.

An end user is an individual, business or organisation that consumes energy and pays for that energy usage through their intermediary—for example, their landlord. That includes a wide range of different arrangements. For example, a tenant may pay their landlord a service charge, or they may pay all-inclusive rent, but they are ultimately paying for the energy consumed at a non-domestic property, so it is only right that they benefit from our support schemes.

As with the other energy price support schemes, the regulations require that support be passed on in a “just and reasonable” way. The regulations were drafted in this way to account for the many kinds of relationships between an intermediary and an end user. If we took a narrow definition of “just and reasonable”, we could run the risk of inadvertently excluding intermediaries from the pass-through requirements. The regulations also accommodate scenarios where intermediaries have multiple end users to pass the support on to, and they make it clear when and how intermediaries should communicate with end users regarding the benefit being passed on.

Our approach to enforcement is consistent with the pass-through regulations for the £150 payment through electricity suppliers, and those for other energy schemes, such as the energy bills support scheme in Great Britain. If an intermediary does not pass on the benefit to a user who is entitled to it, the user will be able to pursue recovery of the benefit through civil proceedings. Should a court rule in the end user’s favour, they would be entitled to the payment plus interest, which is set at 2% above the Bank of England’s base rate.

[Hilary Benn]

Having given the Committee the benefit of her explanation, will the Minister give way again?

[Amanda Solloway]

Yes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful. If it comes to a civil debt being taken to court, would the court have the ability to decide for itself whether the amount that had been passed through was “just and reasonable”? In other words, could it look at the regulations, interpret them and say, “Actually, intermediary, I don’t think you’ve calculated this correctly, and therefore we are going to award a different amount”?

[Amanda Solloway]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a really important point. The whole premise of the regulations is to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and that we are passing on the benefits to all the people who should be receiving them. If he would like, I am happy to write with a fuller explanation.

The regulations require intermediaries to provide information to end users. For example, intermediaries must inform end users of the amount of scheme benefit that has been received, the amount that has been passed on and the remedies available to the end user. I thank the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments for its comments on the enforcement of this requirement. Again, our approach is consistent with that taken in the earlier pass-through regulations for this scheme and the other energy schemes.

With respect to the requirement to pass on information, it is important to reiterate our view that there would be insufficient incentive for end users to make use of an enforcement mechanism, given the time and administrative burden involved in doing so. For this reason, the regulations do not provide a specific enforcement mechanism in relation to the obligation on intermediaries to provide information to the end user. Nevertheless, we consider that there remains value in retaining the requirement in the instrument, on the basis that we expect intermediaries to comply. This is aided by the Government’s publication of guidance on the gov.uk website to ensure that requirements are clear to all parties. The guidance includes template letters to support end users such as tenants, who can use them to contact their landlords should they be concerned about the application of the pass-through requirements.

The regulations are vital to ensure that the support reaches the people it is designed to help. They are essential to the effectiveness of the non-domestic alternative fuel payment across the United Kingdom, and they will ensure that intermediaries pass on the support to the non-domestic energy customers who are most vulnerable to high energy costs. With those reasons in mind, I commend the regulations to the Committee.

Energy Bill [Lords]

Hilary Benn Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 9th May 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore). I agree with every single word he said. If we do not work together on this, we really will be failing our constituents.

I support this big, important and complex Bill, but the test we should apply is very simple: will it give us the tools we need to achieve energy security in a net zero future? As the right hon. Gentleman said, we know exactly what needs to be done. We now need to get on and make it happen.

Some of the policy changes have turned out to be quite simple. The decision to say that petrol and diesel cars cannot be sold after 2030 has been brilliantly effective, because it has led to a huge increase in innovation and to new electric models coming on to the market, but other areas are much more complex.

I will address my remarks to the transition in home heating, which is intensely personal to all our constituents and, indeed, to all of us. There are currently 23 million homes in this country that are dependent on gas for their heating, which we know will have to change because the point will eventually come when no more natural gas comes through the pipes. The policy question is, what will replace that gas? Will it be electric heating, in the form of heat pumps or electric boilers? Will it be district heating? Will it be, for some consumers, hydrogen?

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I support what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. The Government should also consider hydrotreated vegetable oil. We have a depot at Carryduff in my constituency, and the National Trust property at Portaferry and properties in Millisle are using it. It is a proven option. Does he feel the Government need to widen the net and consider HVO as a possibility?

[Hilary Benn]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, because I think we will need all the current technologies and all the technologies that have yet to be invented to meet this challenge.

Of course, the advantage of heat pumps is that they are extremely efficient. Provided that the electricity comes from renewable sources, and all our electricity will come from renewable sources in the not-too-distant future, they are genuinely zero carbon. They work very well in some houses, but they do not work in others. I think of a row of 40 back-to-back houses in my constituency. The doors open on to the street, so where exactly would they put a heat pump? Well, they would not.

Hydrogen is also zero carbon when it is burned, but for hydrogen to work it has to be made through electrolysis using renewable electricity—so-called green hydrogen. There are other ways of producing hydrogen. There is the blue hydrogen question. Can we truly capture the CO₂ and hold it through carbon capture and storage?

The other advantage of hydrogen is that it is “boiler out, boiler in”. Nothing else has to be changed, but there are practical issues, which the Secretary of State mentioned, when it comes to safety and operation. The gas companies are working on that, although it is worth remembering that 50% of coal gas is hydrogen. Many of us lived through the burning of a fuel that is 50% hydrogen, but hydrogen will succeed as a long-term replacement in some cases only if we can produce enough green hydrogen quickly enough, which requires a huge increase in renewable electricity, because the disadvantage of green hydrogen is that it is not very energy-efficient to produce. Three units have to be put in to get one unit of heat, although we currently pay turbine operators to turn off their turbines when the grid cannot take the electricity they would otherwise produce. It is obvious—why do we not use it to produce green hydrogen for storage?

As I said to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), I think we will need all the technologies, in all sizes and colours, to succeed. I do not think it is the Government’s job to pick one or another. The Government’s job is to encourage them all. Where I think the Government have a responsibility is in quickly clarifying how plans to decarbonise home heating in particular places will be pulled together, because with great respect to the new Department, it will not come up with a plan for the city of Leeds and its 800,000 people. The sooner it is clear how the local authority, working with Ofgem, the energy companies and others, will decide what are the appropriate technologies to make the transition, and in which places, the better.

My final point is on the important question of who will pay for this change. My right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) made this point in his excellent speech. We cannot have a transition to net zero in which some people end up having to pay, or being asked to pay, huge costs. We all have constituents who can barely pay their gas bill at the moment, and we cannot ask them to pay for the cost of a heat pump, even with one of the Government’s 90,000 grants. Those grants will not convert 23 million homes. Frankly, we are way off the pace when it comes to home heating. That means that when a gas boiler dies, the homeowner, social landlord or landlord will put in another gas boiler because it is currently cheaper than a heat pump.

We have to get to net zero in a way that is fair to people, wherever they live and whatever they do. We cannot lumber them with costs that they simply cannot afford. If we seek to do that, those 23 million homes simply will not be converted. That is why, in this Bill and in many other ways, we need more clarity and more speed. When the Bill completes its passage through this House, I hope it will emerge even better equipped, with all the tools we need to do the whole job.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Tuesday 18th April 2023 Commons Chamber

[Graham Stuart]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his question. He shares my enthusiasm for leading the world in meeting our net zero challenge and, by doing so, developing technologies and then being able to export those solutions. He is right to highlight issues following the Inflation Reduction Act in the United States, and making sure that in the negotiations with the US and other partners, critical minerals and other issues are dealt with. We are engaging solidly and I know my right hon. Friend was in Japan only last week, talking to Secretary Kerry about that point.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

In 2021, approximately 60,000 heat pumps were installed in the UK, compared with 1.5 million gas boilers. According to the European Heat Pump Association, we have the lowest number of heat pumps installed in the whole of Europe, relative to population. What more can the Government do to change that?

[Graham Stuart]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the decarbonisation of heat remains a major challenge and we need to do more. With the launch of “Powering up Britain”, on which I made a statement to the House just before the recess, we are using £30 million of Government money to leverage £300 million in private investment, but I agree that we need to do more to change the trajectory if we are to meet the target of 600,000 heat pumps a year by 2028.

Oral Answers to Questions

Hilary Benn Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Grant Shapps]

My hon. Friend did a terrific job, I recall, as a Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Whip briefly in the past year. She is absolutely right about carbon capture, utilisation and storage. We have the potential for 78 billion tonnes of CO₂ to be stored. The answer to her track 2 question is: very shortly.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

While I welcome the grants of up to £5,000 that the Government are making available for boiler replacement, as the Secretary of State will know, a heat pump will cost £8,000 to £15,000, so many of our constituents would not be able to afford it even with that grant, and 90,000 such grants do not constitute a plan to decarbonise the 23 million homes in this country that have gas boilers. When do the Government intend to come forward with such a plan?

[Grant Shapps]

I think heat pumps are rather like the solar panels we were just discussing in previous questions. When I had my solar panels installed 12 years ago, they were extremely expensive and had a very long return, although they have finally returned on that; they are now much cheaper. I think we are seeing the same process with air source heat pumps. I note that two suppliers, Octopus and British Gas, have announced £3,000 and £2,500 air source heat pumps—after the Government £5,000, I should say—which means they start to become within reach of ordinary boilers. There is clearly much more to do, but I absolutely share the right hon. Member’s enthusiasm for them.