Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Bill [ Lords ] (First sitting)

Debate between Helen Goodman and Alex Norris

Tuesday 27th February 2018 Public Bill Committees

[Helen Goodman]

The amendments are rightly grouped together, because they deal with essentially the same issue. Many refugees are coming to Europe at the moment, mainly by sea, but a small number by aircraft. We want a system that has firm sanctions on shipping and aircraft but does not penalise or criminalise refugees. I know the Minister is as keen as I am to achieve that.

The numbers are striking: more than 1 million refugees or migrants reached Europe by sea in 2016, and 1 million arrived in that way last year. Most of them are fleeing conflict and political persecution in three places: Syria, Afghanistan and Africa. Unfortunately, at least 3,000 people died crossing the Mediterranean last year. We need a system that is firm in the sanctions aspect but humane for the individual refugees. The Minister has been a Department for International Development Minister, and I know that he has experience in this area and will be able to tell us what he thinks is the right way to proceed. In the Lords, when the Minister, Lord Ahmad, was asked about this, his response was that it would be covered by exemptions and licences for non-governmental organisations, but these people do not always arrive with the help of NGOs; they arrive in ad hoc ways.

If anybody would like to read about that journey, they would do well to look at “The Lightless Sky” by Gulwali Passarlay. He describes his life as a teenager, going from Afghanistan across Iran, through Turkey, being pushed back from Bulgaria, making the journey again, going through Greece and getting to Italy. Interestingly, at some points he describes the people who travelled with him and who organised the journey for him as “traffickers”, and their treatment of him was extremely violent, unpleasant, negative and exploitative; but it was sometimes a positive experience, and he regarded them as agents who he had paid to help him. The dilemma the Minister faces is that we do not wish to encourage the people traffickers, but we need to protect the people. Our amendments are aimed at squaring that circle. I agree that that will be difficult, but that is what we are trying to do.

There is also the question of incentives and the pull factor. Goldsmiths University and Oxford University have looked at this and they do not believe that the pull factor is strong, so I submit that we need to take a more humane approach. We have had British forces in the Mediterranean and we have had HMS Bulwark picking people up in the Mediterranean. That is what the amendments are driving at, and that is the debate I wish to have on them this morning.

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

I rise to speak in support of the amendments, not least so that I do not freeze to my chair, Mr McCabe.

On Second Reading, the rough theme of the discussion was that we wanted a sanctions regime in this country that punished the individuals for their behaviour but did not as a result punish their countrymen and women or people in their care, and what is proposed would seem to fit perfectly with that. The circumstances that might cause us to use sanctions—persecution, human rights abuses or violent conflict at home—are the very circumstances that cause refugees and people to need to leave their country and seek sanctuary elsewhere. We always have to be mindful of unintended consequences, and the amendment seems to offer one way of avoiding them.