Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill

Debate between Heidi Alexander and Robert Halfon

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)]

I feel somewhat unqualified to take part in this debate, because we have heard from a lot of lawyers, and I confess to not being a lawyer. I must admit that I am marrying one at the beginning of August, but he is not affected by these changes.

I will speak about the changes to legal aid and the new provisions on knife crime. I do not stand here today to claim that the current system of legal aid is perfect, because it is not. The Opposition recognise that, and we made a commitment in our manifesto to reforming it, but reforming the system is different from decimating it, and that is what the Government propose to do. This Bill will restrict access to justice to those who can afford to pay, and it will leave some of our poorest and most vulnerable citizens completely defenceless. It is a shameful Bill, and I hope that it will change hugely as it progresses through Parliament.

One of the first occasions on which I had reason to think about the availability of legal aid was when I was a local councillor in Lewisham. I was the cabinet member for regeneration, and I led the council’s work to try to find a new Travellers site. Towards the end of the process, the authority’s decision to build a new site was subject to a judicial review challenge that was funded by legal aid.

I remember hearing how an elderly woman of limited means had been persuaded by her neighbours to front the challenge, and I remember being annoyed by that, questioning in my own mind whether it was right, but as time passed I concluded that it was right: right, because there is a fundamental principle at stake, and right that, irrespective of somebody’s means, they can challenge with the appropriate legal advice and assistance a decision that the state has taken.

Although I appreciate the Government’s plan to retain legal aid for such situations, I think that the principle has to apply across the board. Taking whole areas of social welfare law out of the scope of civil legal aid means that hundreds of thousands of people will not be able to secure the legal advice that they need on housing, education and benefits.

Many decisions challenged using legal aid are taken by the state. They include decisions not to award benefits or to provide housing, and some of that work requires a detailed understanding of the law, yet the Government seem to suggest that people will be able to go it alone. I honestly cannot see how that will work.

Every fortnight I hold my advice surgery, to which many people come with plastic bags full of paperwork, and I spend hours sifting through it with them to find the key document, and to understand what stage of the process they are at and whether they have a right to appeal against a decision. Those people are not the people for whom DIY justice, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) described it, is an option.

A few months ago I visited Morrison Spowart, a small firm of legal aid solicitors in my constituency. Solicitors at the firm are paid generally between £25,000 and £30,000. They are not City lawyers earning £100,000, but they do change people’s lives, and they talked me through a case in which a legal aid fee of £174 enabled them to overturn a council decision not to house a family, thereby avoiding a whole number of knock-on costs to the public purse, not to mention the misery that the decision would have caused the parents and children.

Members will know that organisation after organisation has sent out briefings for this Second Reading debate, talking about the false economy of these cuts to legal aid. The list of organisations that make the argument is a long one: the Law Society, Liberty, Shelter, Citizens Advice, the Law Centres Federation and the Child Poverty Action Group. I ask the Minister: are they all wrong? The Government have not listened to the consultation’s respondents, and, as I have already said, the Bill is shameful given what it proposes to do to access to justice.

In the final minute and a half of my speech, I turn to the new provisions on knife crime and the new offence of possessing a knife in aggravated circumstances. I represent a constituency where lives have been devastated by knife crime, and the Government will have to do much better than this Bill.

Last year I researched on YouTube the videos that gangs put up. Young men—probably boys, to be honest—brandish knives on the internet and wave them around in front of the camera as if they are just cigarettes. Tens of thousands of people have viewed these videos and I wonder whether that would qualify as aggravating circumstances. The videos glorify knife crime and the intimidating and aggressive violence that accompanies it, so I ask the Minister to think about such incidents and whether any change can be made to the law to try to tackle the culture that exists around the use of knives—

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Heidi Alexander]

I only have 30 seconds and many other hon. Members wish to speak—

[Robert Halfon]

I will not be able to speak.

[Heidi Alexander]

In that case, I will give way.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has only just come into the Chamber.

[Robert Halfon]

I beg your pardon, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Is the hon. Lady aware that knives are often sold on the internet priced with British pound signs and does she agree that action needs to be taken to combat that?

[Heidi Alexander]

Some of the things that we see on the internet are of huge concern. I tried to get YouTube to take those videos down, but I did not really have a hope in hell of it doing so. I tried to interest Home Office Ministers in the issue and failed. We have to look at what is out there in cyberspace in order to tackle these issues. If anything will entice someone to get involved in knife crime, it might be the idea that they will get their 30 seconds of glory on the internet with 16,000 people looking at their video. Can we think about other ways to tackle this issue?

I do not think that the provisions in the Bill on knife crime will get to the nub of the problem. I cannot see what will really change as a result of these proposals. While I am inclined to support a mandatory sentence for possession of a knife in aggravated circumstances, I question what will really change.

Immigration

Debate between Heidi Alexander and Robert Halfon

Thursday 18th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Heidi Alexander]

I do appreciate that recent waves of immigrants are sometimes the most deprived people in urban areas, and I understand their concerns, but I believe that a lot of them respect the contribution that former waves of immigrants have made, and they want to feel that society’s resources are shared fairly and that we take an appropriate, fair but firm approach to immigration.

I have talked a little about the stereotypes of the Daily Mail about why people are concerned about immigration. Those stereotypes have now taken root in many communities across the UK. I understand the concerns of my constituents. I understand that when a family from a different country who speak a different language move into a council house down the road, constituents might question why their daughter is still living at home with them and is number 4,323 on the housing waiting list. However, who is to say that their new neighbours are not renting that house privately? Who is to say that the house was not sold many years ago under the right to buy, or that the main breadwinner in the family is not a highly skilled hospital doctor who has come to the UK to fill a position in our NHS that desperately needed to be filled?

[Robert Halfon]

I thank the hon. Lady for her thoughtful opening remarks. Does she agree that the problem is not that bad people are hostile to immigrants, because there will always be bad people? The real problem is that so many good people have become hostile to immigrants, because, as was mentioned earlier, every time they raise the subject they are accused of being racist. The problems that she talks about occur because people are not allowed to discuss the matter openly without being accused of some ulterior motive.

[Heidi Alexander]

I agree that it is very important that we discuss the matter openly and rationally. I agree entirely with the comment made earlier by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) that if politicians from the mainstream parties do not discuss it, we leave a space for other parties. That is why I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead on securing the debate.

I also believe that people’s concerns about immigration are symptomatic of the other big challenges with which we are grappling, which some Members have mentioned. They include the availability of housing at a price that people can afford and of jobs that pay a salary that makes taking the work worth while. We need to address those fundamental problems at the same time as ensuring that our immigration system is, to coin a phrase, “fit for purpose”. It is to that issue that I now turn.

What frustrates me more than anything else about our immigration system is our failure—yes, I accept that it was a failure of the previous Government as much as it is of the current one—to enforce decisions in a fair and humane way. We need appropriate enforcement at the point at which decisions are taken. Given that 37% of immigration appeals are successful, there is also a problem with the right decision being made in the first place, but perhaps that is a discussion for another day. I simply say that we should learn from our mistakes and make better decisions at the outset.

I suspect that I have many constituents who were told years ago that they were liable to deportation or removal, but nothing has happened. Such people carry on their lives, which is understandable. Some might be working in the informal economy, and some will have hung on to jobs that they legally should not have done. They have started relationships and had children, and their children have started school. It is then, years down the line, that they get a visit from the enforcement officers. I do not know what it would feel like to be a six-year-old child and be taken out of school—often the only school they have ever known—and have to move to a country to which they have never been, but something tells me that it would not feel great. I accept that every case is different, and that people who have been convicted of crimes in the past should not be allowed to stay, but I question why we are so intent on causing such upheaval to families.