20 Years of Devolution

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb), my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) and other right hon. and hon. Members.

This is the 20th anniversary of devolution, but it is a bit more than that really, because I refuse to believe that devolution started 20 years ago. There is a real history to it, and one thing I praise Plaid Cymru colleagues for is how they have often acknowledged the work of their predecessors Gwynfor Evans, Lord Dafydd Wigley and Lord Dafydd Elis-Thomas, who kindly supported my 2017 election campaign in Clwyd South. Lord Elis-Thomas is now serving in the Welsh Government, and he is a good man.

The Labour party does not always do that quite enough. I read the book by my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David) about his predecessor, “Morgan Jones: Man of Conscience,” and I was struck that, in his 1922 general election address, Morgan Jones supported self-government—not separatism, but self-government—to address Welsh needs in an appropriate and distinctive way. In June 1938, he was part of a cross-party delegation that met Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain to put the case for a Secretary of State for Wales. Neville Chamberlain did not accept the proposal, but perhaps his judgment was not too good anyway.

Of course, it was not until the reforming Harold Wilson Government of the 1960s that there was a Secretary of State for Wales and a Wales Office. Jim Griffiths was the first Secretary of State. It came from that Keir Hardie tradition of Home Rule all round.

I want to be partisan, not as a Labour Member of Parliament but as a north Walian, in paying tribute today to those great devolutionists: Cledwyn Hughes of Ynys Môn; Goronwy Roberts of Caernarvon; Eirene White of Flintshire; Robert Richards, James Idwal Jones and Tom Ellis, representatives of Wrexham, although the latter two came from Rhosllanerchrugog; Thomas William Jones and William Edwards, representatives of Merioneth, with T.W. also coming from Rhosllanerchrugog. All Labour and all north Walians.

I also pay tribute to Wales’s first female MP—Liberal, and later Labour—Megan Lloyd George, who once recorded a party political broadcast for the Liberal party that ended

“hunan lywodraeth i Gymru. Nos da.”

Or, “self-government to Wales. Good night.” I shared that story when I did occasional Welsh-language voiceovers for Welsh Labour, and people were very interested in my observations.

There are three things we need to consider. Six minutes is not very long, and two minutes and fifty seconds is even shorter. First, devolution offers a real chance for distinctive policies—not distinctive for their own sake but distinctive because they can be innovative and they can work. We have seen it with the minimum pricing of plastic bags, which was an innovative policy introduced in 2011, and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We have to look to the future, considering all the factors.

The Human Transplantation (Wales) Act 2013 introduced the principle of presumed consent, and it saved lives in doing so. There was the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016 and now, with our excellent First Minister, there are proposals for social partnerships. Those policies are distinctive, and they are good.

Secondly, let us not fall into the trap of seeing devolution through the prism of the home nations. It is fine for the rugby, but we miss out when we just look at England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Our late, great colleague Paul Flynn was a passionate devolutionist, and he once told me he felt there was no problem in Wales that could not be solved by an east coast. I think he was joking but, whether he was or not, we do not have one.

Some 50% of Wales’s population live within 30 miles of the border, so devolution has to interconnect between the nations and regions of our country. We see connections between north-east Wales and north-west England in the economy, health and so much more. We also have to see the debate in terms of London, and we have seen greater moves towards devolution. It may not help us, but we have to look to London and the home counties, which want to keep more of their tax take.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is making some important points. Does she agree that, on social care, Wales has much to learn from the Greater Manchester devolution debate? We can learn from them, rather than just thinking that we are ahead of the game.

[Susan Elan Jones]

It is an intelligent contribution to the debate that we consider good policies, wherever they come from, on both sides of the border, in Scotland and, indeed, elsewhere in the world. We must not become insular.

Thirdly, and this is especially true for those of us who fall in the social democratic or democratic socialist traditions, structural and constitutional devices are never an end in themselves. It is about empowerment, wellbeing, connectedness, education and culture. I pay great tribute to all those who are fighting the campaign to reach 1 million Welsh speakers—it is not a maximum, and we can go above it—in Wales, which is very important. It is also about the ability to reach out globally, across continental Europe, the UK, NATO, the Commonwealth and so much more. What was important about the initial devolution settlement was the sense that we had to work consensually. Sometimes the electoral system was devised for that and sometimes, to be honest, that consensual working could be a pain in the neck, but I do believe that without it we would not have had that breadth of support for devolution.

If I am quick, I will be able to end—stereotypically, being Welsh—with a quote from a poem: a not-very-good translation of a Welsh poem. It reads:

“Old Welsh customs need must change

As years progress from age to age.

The generations each arrange

Their own brief patterns on the page.”

That is not how Ceiriog said it, but that is the English translation. Most of us will not be here in this place in 20 years’ time, but what is important is that we work together, we get the best for our country and we do it through that devolved settlement.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the potential effect of the UK exiting the EU on businesses and employees in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

I recognise that many businesses in Wales have an important relationship with the EU, but, as a whole, Welsh businesses export more to countries outside the European Union. In leaving the EU, we will seek new opportunities for businesses across the UK, including in Wales, as we build on our strengths as an open, dynamic trading nation.

[Susan Elan Jones]

The Minister will know full well that he has not really answered my question. Can he tell us whether his officials have made any estimate of how many jobs in Wales will be lost if the UK leaves the single market and what he and his Government are planning to do about it?

[Guto Bebb]

I am somewhat disturbed by the hon. Lady’s comments. Time and again, I hear Opposition parties talking down the Welsh economy. I want to talk up the Welsh economy, as do the Welsh Government. As we start this process, we have fewer people out of work in Wales now than since 2010, and our economy is growing faster than many parts of the UK. She should be talking up Wales, not talking it down.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Wednesday 25th May 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

It is important and imperative that we work together—the Welsh Government, local authorities and the UK Government—in developing transport links throughout north Wales. That is why we have opened the door for a north Wales growth deal, on which we are working in partnership with the Mersey Dee Alliance and the North Wales Economic Ambition Board. The hon. Gentleman is right to say that a real, effective change in north Wales will depend upon co-operation between Westminster and the Welsh Government.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

The new Welsh Government are ready; cross-party and cross-border, Members of Parliament and local authorities are ready; and most important of the lot, we north Walians are very ready. May we have a commitment for proper electrification so that we end up with a growth deal that is worth the name?

[Guto Bebb]

It is imperative that we look carefully at the best value for money from investment in our transport infrastructure. I accept that there is a need to work together, but I also highlight the fact that the CBI and the Federation of Small Businesses this morning called for more action from the Welsh Government. We hear that £200 million has been allocated for the A55, for example, but we have yet to see any action. We do need to work together; finger-pointing does not help.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Wednesday 13th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I entirely endorse the hon. Gentleman’s comments. Both farming unions in Wales—the FUW and the NFU—are strongly in favour of our remaining in the reformed European Union. The extent of Welsh agricultural produce that is exported to the EU shows how important that market is; 90% of Welsh agricultural produce is exported to the EU and we should not risk losing that.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

On this point, the Minister is absolutely right. The best decision for Wales is to stay in the European Union, as our favourite pamphlet says. But can he tell us why, at a time when Sir Terry Matthews, Airbus, NFU Cymru and the FUW support our membership, Andrew R. T. Davies, the person the Conservative party wants to be First Minister of Wales, wants Wales out of the EU? It is a disgrace, is it not? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

I think we got the gist of it.

Media Plurality (Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Tuesday 13th October 2015 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered media plurality in Wales.

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Chope. I am pleased to be able to bring this issue to the attention of the House. The issue of media plurality in Wales is one of growing concern for many in a Welsh context, mainly because we have undoubtedly reached a position where Wales is more clearly defined as an administrative and political entity than possibly at any time in its history, and yet there is a question as to whether its administrative and political distinctiveness is recognised in public discourse in the Welsh media.

The purpose of the debate is to highlight concerns about issues relating to the media in Wales and the way in which we are served by the media in Wales. I also want to ask the Minister a few questions. I am sure he will be able to respond to my points either in full today or in due course. To give the Minister an opportunity to have a think while I speak, I will list the main areas that I wish to talk about in this debate. First, as I have said, we need to recognise the changed political and administrative situation in Wales. We are undoubtedly part of the United Kingdom with a distinct Government and administrative system, and that needs to be recognised. Indeed, the Welsh political system is increasingly being taken seriously. For example, the decision of the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) to put his name forward for election to the Welsh Assembly shows that the way in which the political situation in Wales is developing affects decisions made by hon. Members in Westminster, so we need to recognise that political entity and its existence.

However, we need to ask ourselves whether our media portray that entity fully, and whether the consumption of media in Wales reflects the changed political situation that we face in Wales. Do we have sufficient discussion within the media, whether in the printed media, online, in newspapers or on television and radio? Do we have a consumption in Wales that allows for a discussion of our political discourse that contributes fully to the way in which our democracy works? There is a question as to whether we have such media in place.

Then we need to ask ourselves whether there are shortcomings in the printed media in the Welsh context. We are increasingly dependent on two daily Welsh titles that see a regular fall in sales. The question we then have to ask is whether Wales and Welsh politics are taken seriously by the UK media. We can make a contrast between the situations in Scotland and Wales, for example, so I will touch on those issues as well.

The print media in Wales are declining. I will talk about the figures, but when we see the reduction in the Western Mail and Daily Post sales figures, it is impossible to deny that. What does that decline tell us about what is expected of the Welsh media by the Welsh people? Is there a lack of interest or is it a response to what is perceived to be a declining product, with some exceptions, I am sure? If the print media situation is as bad as I am making out—I will provide statistics that imply that the situation is pretty dire—we have to ask ourselves whether that results in a dependency on the broadcast media that is far beyond what we see in many other parts of the United Kingdom. Again, I will provide statistics that show how the dependence of the Welsh public on broadcast media—television and radio—is much clearer in Wales than in the rest of the United Kingdom.

For example, more people get their news in a Welsh context from the television than in any other part of the United Kingdom. Is that a good or a bad thing? Does that lead to a dependence—an overdependence, perhaps—on the BBC? That is not an attack on the BBC, but do we want to end up in a situation in which most news is provided in Wales by one broadcaster? Granted, some of the BBC output goes out on S4C as well, but we are talking about one broadcaster, the BBC, being responsible for the two main radio stations in Wales, for the BBC news output in English and the S4C news output in Welsh. Is that a healthy situation? Is it the best use of licence payer and taxpayer funding if we end up in a situation where the BBC has almost a monopoly?

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

There is a problem in north-east Wales where the BBC output in certain parts comes either from the north-west or the midlands. The hon. Gentleman talked about overdependence on the BBC, but it could be said to be overdependence on the wrong type of BBC.

[Guto Bebb]

I am fascinated by the concept of the wrong type of BBC, but I understand what the hon. Lady says. Even in my constituency, which is significantly further west than the hon. Lady’s, we have the phenomenon of people turning their aerials towards the north-west because, apart from wind farms, there is nothing to stop signals from the north-west hitting the north Wales coast. It is a fact that people in north-west Wales pick up media from the north-west of England.

The Minister will not be surprised to hear the final point that I will touch on: the situation in relation to S4C and how it can fit into the whole media situation in Wales.

Is the political discourse a problem? I think it clearly is. Any politician knows that it is a problem, because when we knock on doors—I am sure I am not giving away any secrets—we often feel frustrated at people’s lack of understanding about the way in which they are governed. I find it very frustrating, having had a full two years of showing how clearly the Welsh NHS is failing. Some hon. Members will disagree on that point, but it is frustrating to fight a general election with people telling me on the doorstep that they are not voting for me because I am a member of the Government, and the Government are closing maternity units in north Wales. That is the type of frustration that politicians are aware of.

The question is: how can people make the right decision? How can we have an accountable Welsh Assembly if people do not even know what the Assembly is responsible for and they are not even following the discussions that lead to decisions? For example, decisions on the maternity unit in Glan Clwyd are made in Cardiff through the health board, but that accountability is missing in a Welsh context. Frankly, after 18 years of the Welsh Assembly, such lack of accountability is something that should concern all of us. If all political parties believe the Welsh Assembly is central to the way in which Wales is governed and that we should have devolution to greater or lesser extent—there are disagreements as to exactly how much—and if there is a feeling that we should have a devolved Administration who are responsible for crucial decisions in a Welsh context, we have to ask ourselves whether there is a lack of a coherent discussion of the issues relating to people in Wales in the printed media and the media in general. Clearly we have a problem, and I would argue that it is pretty much undisputed that there is a democratic deficit in the way in which public issues and affairs are discussed in a Welsh context. That issue should concern all of us on a cross-party basis. The responses might differ from party to party, but the concern should be genuine and heartfelt among all Members of this House and all people involved in politics in a Welsh context.

The problem arises to a large extent because more than 90% of the printed media read in Wales comes from London. I have nothing against London. I happily live here three to four days a week, and I would be lost without my daily morning paper and certainly my Sunday papers. I know I am in a minority in still enjoying a morning paper. Indeed, my daughter is now doing the same paper round that I used to do 30 years ago. That shows we believe in equality in our household, because she has taken over the paper round from my son. When I did the paper round, I delivered to more than 50 houses, but that has gone down to less than 20. Clearly, there is a decline that is not related to Wales alone. The key point, though, is that as 90% of the printed media sold in Wales come from London, there are clearly questions to be asked. First, why are the Welsh media declining so quickly? Secondly, why do London media not do in Wales what they do in Scotland?

We should ask serious questions about the contrast between Wales and Scotland. There are three daily national newspapers in Scotland, all of which sell more than the two papers we have in Wales. On top of that, Scotland has two regional papers with significant distribution and sales. Furthermore, no fewer than seven UK titles produce Scottish editions. It is difficult to argue that there is not a more lively debate about politics in Scotland than in Wales. I am not saying that that is all down to the failure of the media—politicians must take responsibility as well—but it is difficult to have an engaged discussion when so much of the content people read daily does not address Welsh issues.

Even if some parties present were unhappy with the Daily Mail’s campaign on the Welsh NHS last year, there was something quite refreshing about the fact that day after day for several weeks a London-based newspaper concentrated on the so-called failures of the Welsh Government. I should be clear that I am not trying to make a political point, but in my view there is no doubt that that campaign resulted in public discourse about the Welsh context, because suddenly the London papers were taking an interest in Wales. That type of discussion of Welsh matters should not be confined to one-off issues with, perhaps, a slightly partisan political agenda in the background. I happen to think that the Daily Mail was highlighting important issues of concern to us all, but I respect the fact that some people in the Cardiff Administration would respectfully disagree. I think we would all agree that if there is a perceived failing of the Welsh Government, that should be highlighted in the media read by the people of Wales. If not, we have a problem.

Employment in Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Tuesday 27th January 2015 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I accept entirely that we would be disappointed to see job losses in any part of Wales. I know full well how the north Wales economy works, and a number of people who work in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency live in mine. People travel to work down the A55 corridor, whether that is from east to west or west to east. Even though the road makes that difficult, I often meet people who work in Chester or in Alyn and Deeside when I am out canvassing. I accept that any job lost is a concern, but it is important to remember that although the Labour party has been highlighting the doom and gloom, and saying that Wales will never recover from public sector job cuts, the number of jobs created in the private sector in Wales has far exceeded the number lost in the public sector.

In that respect, we need to respond to the slur made by the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd regarding Government Members’ attitude towards public sector workers. I have never heard a Government Member criticise anybody who works in the public sector. The one simple point we have made is that we need to have fairness between those who work in the public sector and the majority—even in Wales—who work in the private sector. Do public sector workers have gold-plated pensions? No, they do not in terms of what they get out of their pensions, but in comparison with the situation for somebody in my constituency who is self-employed, “gold-plated” is a fair description. The changes the Government have brought in simply move the balance of pension contributions slightly from the taxpayer to the recipients of the significant pensions in the public sector. The Government’s changes on pensions are to be applauded because they have ensured that we retain a degree of support for those who opt to serve in the public sector, and that support is well beyond what is available to those who work in the private sector.

The hon. Gentleman should remember a simple point: even on trade union figures, the average public sector pension is about £8,000, and that is equivalent to a pension pot of roughly £120,000. If Labour Members do care about people in Wales, they should be aware that the average pension pot for somebody in the private sector in Wales is £30,000. Even the trade union figures still imply that people in the public sector have a fund that is four times more than that of somebody in the private sector, but I see no concern among Labour Members about the situation faced by the vast majority of Welsh workers.

It is important to highlight that Labour Members have said time and time again that there is concern about youth unemployment. What we have seen, however, is that there is a difference between what happens when Labour is in power and what Labour thinks happens when it is in power. In my constituency, for example, youth unemployment has fallen by almost 50% since 2010. That fantastic achievement is the result of this Government’s attitude that people are better off in work than not working. Under the previous Government, youth unemployment went up and the benefits system picked up the strain. Nobody who is young should be on benefits; they should be able to be trained and to get work, and that is exactly what we are seeing in Aberconwy as a result of the Government’s changes.

[Susan Elan Jones]

It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman is posing as Mr Egalitarian between the public and private sectors. Is he not part of a Government party that spent millions of pounds of our money contesting a court case so that bankers in this country could get extra bonuses? Where does that put him? We are not talking about the difference between the public and private sectors when it comes to ordinary jobs in north Wales, but about a Government who act fundamentally against the interests of people in north Wales when they take such actions.

[Guto Bebb]

I am constantly amazed at Labour Members’ hatred of the entrepreneurial spirit. The simple fact of the matter is that we need a successful economy to pay for the public services we need. The Labour party has always believed that money derives from thin air; it does not understand how the economy actually works. To have a strong health service, we need a strong economy. To have employment growth, we need a strong economy. To have a strong economy, we need a strong entrepreneurial spirit. This Government understand that simple fact; the Labour party clearly does not.

The key issue we need to look at is employment rates. Employment rates in Wales are notoriously low by UK standards, but they are going in the right direction. I was interested to note from the debate pack that the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd once tabled a question requesting employment figures for north Wales constituencies. Remarkably, in comparison with the glory days of the Labour Government, the employment numbers for all of them are higher than they were when Labour was in power. We hear rhetoric from the Opposition, but when they are in power we always see failure. Everyone in UK politics knows that not once has a failed Labour Administration left government with unemployment lower than it was when they came to power. That has always been true—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) suggests that that is an old chestnut, but he knows that where there is unemployment, there are Labour Members. The eight constituencies represented by the Conservative party in Wales have a lower unemployment rate than the Welsh average. Suffice it to say, the areas of hard-core unemployment are typically represented by the Labour party, which despises enterprise and is not willing to recognise the work that the self-employed do. Labour Members say that they will change things, but vote for exactly the same fiscal position as the Government.

amendment of the law

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Tuesday 25th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady makes comments from a sedentary position, but—

[Susan Elan Jones]

No, I want the hon. Gentleman to give way.

[Guto Bebb]

I will happily give way after I have made this point.

My comments about the Welsh Government’s failure to support the Work programme are endorsed not just by Conservative Members but by the Welsh Affairs Committee, on which the majority of those voting were Labour Members.

[Susan Elan Jones]

The hon. Gentleman has returned from Patagonia as partisan as ever. Why does he not commend the fact that 80% of traineeships under Jobs Growth Wales are in the private sector? Surely, as a former small business man, he welcomes that.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady makes an interesting point about Jobs Growth Wales. When I wrote to local businesses in my constituency, I mentioned the possibility of young people getting on to the Work programme, but I also mentioned the possibility of using Jobs Growth Wales. I find it odd, however, that because somebody who is about to leave a youth detention centre in England, for example, is automatically enrolled on to the Work programme, they cannot access Jobs Growth Wales owing to the policies of the hon. Lady’s party. It would be well worth her while to read the criticisms that the Welsh Affairs Committee made, with cross-party consensus, of the Welsh Government’s actions on programmes that are there to support and train young people and to give them skills to take up opportunities that exist in their communities. She should raise that issue with members of her own party.

We have a success story on jobs. We are seeing a fall in unemployment in my constituency, with positive measures to support small businesses. We depend entirely on the small business community for the growth and development of jobs, and one key thing that we are doing is reducing the burden of employers’ national insurance contributions on small businesses. The reduction of £2,000 in the next financial year will be a great boost to small businesses that are looking to employ members of staff, and that is crucial.

The hon. Member for Wigan mentioned the need to ensure that we deal fairly with small businesses. Again, we can compare and contrast the efforts of the UK Government under difficult financial circumstances with what is being done in Cardiff. For example, there have been calls, demands and cries for help from small businesses in the retail sector, which have stated clearly that they need help with business rates. The Chancellor has responded so that, for example, any small business in England that has a rateable value of less than £50,000 will not only have a cap on their business rates this year but get a £1,000 rebate. That might not sound like a lot of money to some Members, but for a small retail business in my constituency that is struggling to survive, £1,000 could make the difference between success and failure. Again, though, what is happening to that £1,000 rebate in Wales? It is not getting through to small businesses. The Welsh Government are retaining it in Cardiff to support another of their pet projects.

We hear from Opposition Front Benchers—we heard it from the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions today—that people in this country face a cost of living crisis. I invite them to look at the situation in Wales. In my constituency, a Labour-Plaid Cymru council has increased council tax not by 5% or 10% but by 23% since 2010. That increase could have been avoided if the money made available by the UK Government had been passed down to local authorities in Wales, so that they could try to support hard-working families at this difficult time by freezing council tax. It is a fact that only one council in Wales has managed to freeze council tax for two years. Conservative-controlled Monmouthshire has done so for two successive years, despite the lack of financial support from the Welsh Labour Government.

In my own authority of Conwy, we have had increases of 5% and 4.8%, with a total increase of more than 25% since I was elected, simply because the Labour party in Cardiff and in my constituency is happy to place further burdens on hard-working families at a time when they need support. The situation is unacceptable, because money has been made available under difficult circumstances by the Chancellor but the Welsh Government have decided that they would rather keep it than to support hard-working families in north Wales. That is clearly a disgrace.

This is a solid Budget that will allow us to look to the future with confidence. I would be delighted if some of the changes in England were also to be implemented in Wales. Unfortunately, that is not the case, but I hope that the people of Wales will be wise enough to identify the failures of the Welsh Government in that respect.

The other key thing that has been welcomed with open arms by my constituents is the change to pensions. We have heard some reservations from Opposition Members, but not perhaps from Front Benchers, who seem to be aware of the popularity of the change. The change is popular, because it is right to tell people that they need to take more responsibility for their own lives. We have seen that in relation to the changes in personal taxation, on which the coalition have said, “Let’s increase the personal tax allowance and allow people to keep more of the money they earn.” The Labour version is to say, “Give us the tax, and we’ll put it through a bureaucratic system and then we’ll give you something back, which you must be grateful for.” I must say that when it comes to a general election, it was very handy for people to be able to phone up and say that the Conservatives are getting rid of tax credits.

The key point is that we believe in increasing the personal allowance because we trust the people. In the same way, we are making the change to pensions simply because we trust people to make the right decision about their own money. What is key is that if people are willing to save and invest for their own pensions, surely they have the right to make their own decision about how they best make use of their pension pot on retirement. The change will be welcome in my constituency, in which the average age is among the highest of all constituencies in Wales; indeed, my postbag tells me that it is being welcomed now. The key thing is that we are making the change not because we have a party political agenda, but for the simple reason that we trust the people to make the right decision about their own money.

Budget Resolutions and Economic Situation

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Thursday 21st March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

I am grateful to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for allowing me to speak in this important Budget debate. I shall make a relatively short speech, because I know that many other Members wish to speak. I make no apology for focusing on my constituency, and on the people who elected me to be their representative in Parliament.

I do not think there is a single issue in my area that people care about more than jobs, and I entirely agree with them. My constituents know that without work, there can be no community and no prosperity. Much concern has rightly been expressed about the fact that growth in our economy now stands at less than a seventh of the amount that the Chancellor anticipated in his 2010 spending review: 0.7%, rather than the 5.3% that was forecast at that time. However, I believe that we are right to be even more concerned about the fact that yesterday the Chancellor, rather alarmingly, had to admit that the growth forecast for this year had been cut in half, to just 0.6%. The forecast by the Office for Budget Responsibility that borrowing will hit £114 billion this year, instead of the already immense £108 billion that was previously forecast, should fill us all with concern, as should the fact that yesterday’s UK unemployment figures were up by 7,000 to 2.52 million.

It troubles me, in human terms, that according to the very latest unemployment figures, one person in every 20 in the economically active population aged between 16 and 64—1,770 people—in my constituency is unemployed. I believe that that figure would be even higher were it not for the serious efforts of the Welsh Government’s Jobs Growth Wales fund, which has provided 4,000 jobs for young people throughout Wales.

On the day on which a new Archbishop of Canterbury is to be enthroned, I think that we can do worse than reflect on the words of one of his great predecessors. Archbishop William Temple wrote:

“The worst evil of unemployment is in its creating in the unemployed a sense that they have fallen out of the common life. However much their physical needs may be supplied the gravest part of the trouble remains; They are not wanted!”

Those are the words of someone who lived through the great depression of the 1930s, and who realised that without the politics of one nation, our country could never have stood against fascism. They are, I believe wise and prophetic words for us today. That is why I believe that discussions about unemployment affect us all, and why unemployment can never be seen as a price worth paying. It is why I am deeply disappointed that the Chancellor did not take the step yesterday that my party would have taken by guaranteeing a job for every young person out of work for a year or more and for every adult unemployed for more than two years—funded by a fair tax on bank bonuses and changes to pensions tax relief for the very richest. That would be a far better investment than the subsidy for second homes. For Labour Members, it is the flesh and blood of one nation politics and would have been the best and fairest option.

Real action on national insurance to help small businesses take on more staff would have been the fairest option too. Any Government Members awake at this point may say, “Did you not hear what the Chancellor said yesterday?” Of course I did, and I like the idea of the national insurance cuts for employers so much that I am delighted to be a member of the party that proposed them. It is just that, in the interests of fairness, growth and getting our economy going again, I have to ask: if it matters so much to him, why will he not do it now? Why does he think that excellent local small businesses such as the Community café in Rhosymedre should not be supported this year, yet millionaires will get their tax cut from next month? Why will he not commit to a British investment bank? The hon. Member for Burton (Andrew Griffiths) spoke eloquently about the Campaign for Real Ale and real ale pubs. Unlike him, I have last year’s CAMRA pub of the year in my constituency. One of its biggest problems in setting up was that bank managers persistently refused it loans. It is exactly the sort of programme that our British investment bank would support. The Government’s thinking on this one just does not make sense.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

In view of the need to support small businesses with finance, how can the hon. Lady justify in the current economic scenario Finance Wales, which is funded by the Welsh Government, giving out loans at 8% or 9% above base?

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am sure that we could carry on this conversation ad infinitum. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman could tell me how he can justify all the cuts in revenue spending that are coming to the Welsh Government, but we will carry that one on some other day. I am sure that he could also tell me about the excellent impact there will be on his local economy when the holiday homes subsidy is in place, but, again, we will carry that on later.

I believe that investment, growth and employment are not just terms in economic textbooks; they are at the heart of what makes communities and countries work. I am talking about communities in my constituency and, more widely, across the nations and regions of the United Kingdom. If our Government and our Chancellor cannot understand that, it is high time for them to be replaced by a genuinely one nation Government who do understand.

Welsh Language (Non-devolved Departments)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention.

My specific concerns relate to the fact that I represent a constituency where about 40% of the population are first-language Welsh speakers. I would be the first to admit that not enough of those constituents who are first-language Welsh speakers demand services in Welsh, but there have been occasions since I was elected in May 2010 when I have communicated by letter with various Westminster Departments to highlight concerns about the non-provision of services through the medium of Welsh. In response, I again received examples of willingness to co-operate, but it is worrying that a Department stated in a letter quite recently that it is willing to co-operate through its Welsh language scheme and that it will consult the Welsh Language Board on how that relationship may be further developed. I wish that Department good luck, because the Welsh Language Board, as we well know, has been abolished.

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

Section 43 of the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 is extremely important. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, were the Secretary of State for Wales to give a statement of intent to do so, there would be no barrier to ensuring better Welsh language services in Whitehall Departments? Will he also join me in calling on the Secretary of State to give his section 43 consent?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady jumps ahead of me, because I will mention section 43 later in my speech, but, yes, it is an important part of the legislation.

There are concerns, because some of the services offered to the people of Wales by non-devolved Departments are crucial. We all know how important the benefits system is, and we all know the pressures faced by constituents who have to go through the Atos health care system, and for them to be able to do that in the language of their choice is important. The Department for Work and Pensions has made it categorically clear that anyone wishing to undertake such a review through the medium of Welsh can do so, but we need to ensure that we hold the Department not only to its good intentions but to its promises.

Some of the other services offered by Westminster Departments are also crucial for the recognition that the language has equal status. In that respect, I congratulate the Department for Transport, which has recently given the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency licensing contract to the Post Office. As I said, I have been involved in the compliance efforts of the Post Office, which is an organisation that works extremely hard to ensure a bilingual service. Having those DVLA forms available in both languages in post offices across my constituency and across the constituencies of other hon. Members is a major step forward.

Why do I raise the issue now? We are in a transitional period and are slowly moving from the Welsh language schemes that existed under the 1993 Act to the new system of standards. Obviously, for those standards to be imposed on non-devolved areas, co-operation is needed between the Secretary of State for Wales and the newly created Welsh Language Commissioner. I have concerns, because we need that co-operation to be strong, but it needs to work both ways. I am quite confident that there is good will, and that willingness to work exists in the Wales Office, but I want to ensure that that is put on record today.

As the hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) stated, one of the key points is that the 2011 Measure categorically states that the Secretary of State can ensure that there is an agreement for services to be provided by Ministers of the Crown in Welsh, where that has been discussed and developed in a co-operative fashion. I would argue, therefore, that we need to ensure that that process is addressed and articulated in the open, because transparency is always a good thing if there is some concern that that is not being provided, or that there is a lack of understanding of the requirement. The key issue is the lack of understanding of what can and what should be expected of the non-devolved Departments. I have no doubt that co-operation will be forthcoming from the Wales Office. We have seen that the intention is to work with the Welsh Language Commissioner, and I am sure that the Minister will confirm that my understanding is correct, but I will wait for his comments.

It is also crucial to state that, in addition to co-operation and agreement from the Secretary of State for Wales, we need to address the Welsh Language Commissioner being a post and an organisation created by the Assembly. We need the credibility that the Welsh Language Board used to offer as a board established by an Act of Parliament. That credibility will be forthcoming if there is a positive and strong working relationship between the commissioner and the Secretary of State for Wales. The Secretary of State for Wales should not simply sign off an order and leave it at that; there should be an ongoing process of co-operation between the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Wales Office. I ask the Minister to comment on any developments and discussions on the way in which such co-operation might happen.

If we accept the argument that there is a need for the Wales Office to be involved in the way in which the Welsh Language Commissioner and its powers are implemented in relation to the Welsh language, and I think we do, we have to ask the key question who will scrutinise that involvement. It is perfectly clear and correct that the Welsh Assembly will scrutinise the work of the Welsh Language Commissioner. That is what I expect to happen. The Welsh Language Commissioner is a body created by the Welsh Assembly, so it should be accountable to the Welsh Assembly. If the intentions behind the 2011 Measure are to be realised by co-operation and co-working between the Wales Office and the Welsh Language Commissioner, there is a question about who will scrutinise that work.

It is important that all Departments are held to account. We often hear the claim that the Wales Office has much less to do now than it did previously. This is one area where the Wales Office should be leading the charge, but there is a need for scrutiny. Have there been any discussions with, for example, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies) on the possibility of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs taking an interest in scrutinising potential co-operation between the Welsh Language Commissioner and the Wales Office? There should be accountability in the performance of any duties that affect the public. We are all clear that accountability for devolved areas will be undertaken by the Welsh Assembly, but there is a role for the Welsh Affairs Committee in monitoring the work undertaken by the Wales Office in partnership with the Welsh Language Commissioner, if that is the way forward.

I have raised my concerns because I see a disconnect between the aims of the 2011 Measure and what is happening on the ground. I do not claim that the 1993 Act was perfect, but I am concerned that the way in which it had bedded in and reached the point where it was accepted by most of the non-devolved Departments may be lost. If we lose that, it would be to the detriment of Welsh speakers in all parts of Wales, not least in my constituency.

I believe that the structures can be created in partnership between the Wales Office and the new Welsh Language Commissioner, but that has to be open and transparent, and subject to accountability through scrutiny by elected Members here in Westminster. I can see no better way of doing that than through the offices of the Welsh Affairs Committee.

I look forward to the Minister’s response.

Policing (North Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Tuesday 31st January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Crausby, and to see so many colleagues from north Wales here to debate this important issue.

It is not often that I can begin such a debate by saying that we can learn something from the Welsh Conservatives, but today I am privileged to be able to do so. The Welsh Conservatives have cancelled their Llandudno conference this year, apparently because of security costs. I am not sure whether they think extra security is needed to hold back the crowds or to ensure that none of their politicians get out to hear what local people think. Wherever they plan to skulk off to instead, I hope they face the full weight of the law for non-payment of the £20,000 that the Imperial hotel is likely to lose because of their bad business practice in cancelling so late. Leaving aside their cowboy capitalism—I see that the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) does not wish to intervene—the Conservatives’ decision has betrayed a fact they have been trying to deny since the general election, which is that good security costs money, and without enough funding, security will suffer.

That principle brings me to today’s debate, ahead of next week’s vote on more cuts to the North Wales police force. The first duty of any Government is to protect their citizens, or to put in place the brave men and women who do that for us. We all rely on our police forces to keep us safe, and we in north Wales are extremely lucky to have an excellent force, which provides a top-class, professional service to our communities. Our police force, however, is being let down, and law and order—cyfraith a threfn—is being woefully let down in the process.

Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary was asked to advise the Government on possible efficiency savings in the police force, and said that

“cost cutting and improvements in productivity could, if relentlessly pursued, generate a saving of 12% in central government funding without affecting police availability—but only if there was a fundamental ‘re-design’ of the system”.

Despite that advice, the Government are pursuing a 20% cut in police funding, stripping the police of 8% more of their funding than the experts said could be removed safely.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, and I congratulate her on securing this debate. Is it not the case that the Labour Welsh Government are cutting funding to police forces by 6.3%, compared with 6.9% from central Government? Would she defend that difference?

[Susan Elan Jones]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s crib sheet comment, but I remind him that the Welsh Government, who are dealing with a very difficult situation from the UK Government, are increasing the number of police community support officers by 500. I urge him to reflect on that. I also note his non-comment on his party’s lack of funding in his own constituency, Aberconwy, thanks to the cancellation of its Llandudno conference.

Despite HMIC’s advice, the Government are pursuing a 20% cut in police funding. On the ground, that means that since the last general election, North Wales police has lost 85 police officers, or more than 5% of its whole force. By 2015, it is forecast that more than 360 staff could go—179 officers and 186 civilian staff. After years of steadily rising numbers of police officers, so many are now being cut that already we have fewer officers in north Wales than we did a decade ago. Meanwhile, the population of north Wales has increased by over 12,000.

--- Later in debate ---

[Susan Elan Jones]

In a moment—I must make progress. The offences that I have listed are exactly the kinds that tend to increase when police numbers fall. HMIC published research last summer that acknowledged that lots of factors affect crime rates, but it also stated that

“there is relatively strong evidence for the potential of an effect of police numbers on crime, particularly with regard to property and other acquisitive forms of offending.”

It also noted:

“Research suggests that frontline officer numbers are one factor in a force’s ability to fight crime.”

In north Wales, official statistics obtained by my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) show that since 2001, crime broadly decreased as officer numbers rose. It is good common sense—more police officers can fight more crime—but, sadly, the Government parties seem determined to ignore the links. Their line is to quote one sentence from last year’s Home Affairs Committee report. I suspect that the Minister may wish to do that today, so I will save him the task. It says that

“there is no simple relationship between numbers of police officers and levels of crime”,

but that line has been carefully cherry-picked. The rest of the report is full of evidence to the contrary. In the same paragraph as the quotation that the Government like, the Committee offers a clarification:

“However, the loss of posts will have an impact on the range of services that the police provide and the way in which they are provided.”

The report also notes the evidence of Mr McKeever, the chairman of the Police Federation, who said in his evidence that

“there is a clear trend in the relationship between police officer numbers and crime.”

The report also references Councillor Burns-Williamson, deputy chair of the Association of Police Authorities, who told the inquiry:

“My guess is that, given the cuts over the four-year period…probably crime levels will start to rise.”

Elsewhere, even the Conservative Mayor of London agrees that “numbers matter”.

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way again. On the basis of her argument, I take it that she is against any cuts whatsoever to the police budget, but is that not contrary to the shadow Chancellor’s comments over the past two weeks?

Public Sector Pensions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Thursday 8th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

First, may I say that I might not be here for the wind-ups, because I have to catch a train to Brussels for Welsh Affairs Committee work? I hope that I will be able to be here, but if not, I present my apologies in advance.

This is an important debate, and I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute. One of the disappointments so far has been the fact that many Opposition Members have implied that coalition Members, whether they are Liberals or Conservatives, despise the public sector in some way. That is simply not the case, and I reject the suggestion completely. As a coalition Member, I find such comments offensive. I depend on state schools for the education of my children, I am the son of teachers and I am married to a public sector worker, so I find such comments completely unfair. Opposition Members should consider the matter carefully before making them.

We are aware of the importance of the public sector, so much so that we are proposing changes that Lord Hutton, the Labour peer who produced the report on the matter, said were possibly not affordable.

[Susan Elan Jones]

Can the hon. Gentleman confirm that he is not in fact the son of Conservatives?

[Guto Bebb]

That is an interesting question, and I am not sure. My father certainly ended up voting Conservative, but I cannot comment on my mother, because I think that how somebody votes at the ballot box is their choice entirely.

We are quite often accused of attacking the public sector or introducing unfair policies, yet the coalition Government are trying to deal on a long-term basis with issues that the previous Labour Government did not deal with. When we talk about fairness, which is important in this debate, I wonder where the comments of Labour Members were on the raid on private sector pensions. Where were their comments in defence of people with poor rates of pension provision who were saving with their own money—working people saving for their retirement? Where was the Labour party when it came to defending those people when the previous Labour Government raided pensions to the tune of £5 billion a year? That was a scandal. It was not fair, but we heard nothing from Labour Members.

Even worse, the raid on private pensions was made with the justification of helping young people back into work. In 2010, the rate of unemployment among young people was higher than in 1997. The raid was unjustified, not effective and unfair.

High-speed Rail

Debate between Guto Bebb and Susan Elan Jones

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Westminster Hall

[Susan Elan Jones]

It is no secret that the slow pace of rail journeys to parts of mid-Wales is scarcely believable. I agree totally that the London-Birmingham high-speed link would make a tremendous difference to that, or at least part of a difference. This is our opportunity. I want to see benefits of the kind that the TGV delivered in northern France brought to Wales, as well as to the midlands, northern England and Scotland, through HS2.

Although the planned route for HS2 does not go directly into Wales, that does not matter. Getting the journey time from London to key hubs such as Manchester or Liverpool down to an hour and 10 minutes would be a massive improvement for us. Some tube journeys take longer than that, as I am sure many hon. Members realise. Suddenly, getting business representatives from London to north Wales and back in a day would look easy.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

On that point, I travel down by train from Chester or Runcorn simply because the North Wales Coast Railway line is so poor. How does the hon. Lady think that the economic case for north Wales will be improved by making the journey time to Manchester 1 hour 10 minutes rather than 1 hour 50 minutes, when north Wales will still be three-and-a-half hours away?

[Susan Elan Jones]

There is work to be done in north Wales. We are talking about a link that would speed up the entire journey down here. The examples that I gave earlier show how it is much quicker to travel to parts of Europe than to parts of north Wales, which bears testimony to my argument.