20 Years of Devolution

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Thursday 11th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The dynamic of change is a critical aspect of how we have accountability, quality of policy and innovation of ideas. We have yet to see that—it can be interpreted in many ways—in Wales. I believe we can very much strengthen democracy in Wales in that respect.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Let us be honest: a change of Government in Wales would demand a coalition between parties other than Labour. Is the hon. Lady of the view that the right way forward should be a coalition, and that that coalition should not exclude the Conservative party?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

From Westminster to every Parliament of the United Kingdom, the adversarial way in which we operate is not serving any of the nations of the United Kingdom effectively. I urge us all to find new ways of working, rather than this duality of adversarialness, which frankly does nothing but score points.

The reforms that Plaid Cymru put to the Senedd yesterday are evidently—it was interesting to hear agreement from Conservative Members—in the interests of our country and of Wales, yet Labour refused to support our motion. Instead, Labour put in place obstacles to avoid achieving immediate reform. Many of us present feel that the need is urgent for Wales. Wales deserves a world-class Parliament and a Senedd that makes decisions in the best interests of the country, not in the best interests of the Labour party.

With the impending threat of a no-deal Brexit and the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Boris Johnson) as Prime Minister, change is more vital than ever. Brexit has shone a pitiless light on the inadequacies of the UK constitution. The European Union (Withdrawal) Act will, with the aiding and abetting of the Labour Welsh Government, weaken the devolution settlements that the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland have enjoyed for the past two decades. Not only did the Labour Welsh Government capitulate on the withdrawal Bill; they withdrew the only means of protection that the Senedd had against the Tory Government: they repealed the Welsh continuity Act.

First Minister Mark Drakeford’s whole argument for repealing the Act was premised on his belief that the Scottish Government would lose the Supreme Court case over their equivalent legislation. He said that if Scotland lost it would have nothing, while Wales would still have its paltry agreement with the UK Tory Government. It is sad to recount that his wager backfired in spectacular fashion. Scotland won the case, meaning its powers are legally protected. It is Wales that is left with nothing, defenceless. We have nothing left but a bad deal that gives away Welsh powers to Tory Ministers, with no guarantee that we will ever get them back.

My party’s position for Wales’s future is clear: we want the people of Wales to run our own affairs. In all honesty, who aspires to come into politics and into government but would not aspire to that? In truth, who would not aspire to that? Sometimes, when we spell this out, we are told that to call for independence is somehow irrational and unreasonable—something to which we should not aspire—but in all honesty, who among us would ever have come into politics unless the people we represent had the chance to represent themselves? Why would we ever tell people that they do not have the means, the means to aspire or the potential—that they do not have it in them to manage their own affairs? That is what motivates many of us here on the Opposition Benches.

I acknowledge that, in the interim, we need a collaborative procedure for the creation of UK-wide frameworks, given that the Government are so determined to press ahead and remove us from the already functioning EU frameworks in which we know where we stand. Such UK-wide frameworks would have a significant impact on the existing evolved devolution settlements and therefore must be created jointly by all the sitting Governments, not dictated from this place by Ministers of the Crown. This is only the first step to ensuring that devolution is not just respected, but upheld in the upheaval that the Government are creating and forcing on us by leaving the European Union.

In future, there must be no first among alleged equals, but equality of respect, means and potential. Welsh democracy is facing its biggest existential threat of its 20-year anniversary. We face a stark choice of two futures: will Wales be a peripheral geographic unit, crumbling under the pressure of an increasingly London-centric Unionist Government, or will we be an independent European nation, with a fit-for-purpose and dynamic Parliament? I know which future I would choose for the people of Wales and the people I represent.

Social Mobility (Wales)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Tuesday 19th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Diolch yn fawr iawn, Mrs Moon. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I thank the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) for securing this important debate, and I am honoured to follow the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), who made a considered and quite inspiring speech.

To speak plainly, responsibility for social mobility lies with the National Assembly. The Welsh Government have a crucial role to play in reducing inequality in Wales, but it is also true that every decision taken in Westminster has a very real impact on people’s prospects in Wales, whether it be on social security, digital connectivity or infrastructure, to name just those areas I intend to concentrate on today. I have to return to my expertise in a former life—I was a director in a large further education establishment—and I must reiterate the integral role that education plays in promoting social mobility.

In one of the earlier speeches, early years, vocational education and higher education were mentioned. Those, in terms of funding, targets, quality of achievement and the curriculum, are entirely within Labour’s remit in Wales. It is important to emphasise that in the role that we expect education to play. I have seen how the effects of the political choices made in different areas of Wales have played out, and it would be extremely disingenuous of me not to remind the Chamber of the role of Labour in that respect. However, today I intend to be “on location” and direct my arguments to the Minister.

One other thing I would like to question slightly is using Oxbridge as our measure of success. It is interesting that so many people here attended Oxford and Cambridge, but we should be building a society where someone can gain that capability and confidence without having public, or private, school education and Oxbridge university education behind them. We should be building that in Wales for our young people to achieve near to their own homes.

In the effort to champion social mobility, redistribute wealth and provide opportunity, every socioeconomic pillar must carry its load. The Government are failing to raise the people of Wales through the measures in their remit of social security, infrastructure and digital connectivity in particular. Changes to social security made by the Government will hit the poorest areas hardest. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies has revealed that Westminster’s benefit cuts will trigger a rise of over 5% in child poverty in Wales, compared to 1.5% in London. Wales remains the only country in western Europe without an inch of electrified railway, and all the while Welsh taxpayers are contributing towards High Speed 2. We hear disingenuous arguments as to how HS2 will benefit us. Frankly, I have concerns about how it will affect services from Cardiff to Manchester via Crewe and services along the north Wales line as well.

Only yesterday, we read reports in the Financial Times that the Westminster Government are having cold feet over the Swansea bay tidal lagoon project—we already had that impression—which is an investment that would bring £316 million of gross value added in its construction alone. What about digital connectivity? Recently, the Westminster Government invested significant sums to improve broadband infrastructure in three of the four UK nations—but not in Wales. They found £20 million for ultrafast broadband in Northern Ireland and £10 million was found for full-fibre broadband in six trial areas across England and Scotland, yet nothing for Wales. According to Ministers, the decision on where to invest the money was based on how likely they believed it was that the investment would stimulate short-term economic growth, effectively to boost headline statistics. That is where the fundamental problem lies and where the link between social mobility in Wales and Westminster’s priority is at its weakest.

It is not the Government’s job to pick who wins and who loses in the British state; it is their job to provide equality of opportunity. There is of course a complex link between regional inequality and social mobility. Poverty in the UK is particularly concentrated in Wales, affecting nearly one in four people, while the UK poverty rate remains at 16.8%. Median weekly salaries stand at £393 in Wales, compared with £434 in England. When I hear about the employment rate, yes, I am delighted that people are in full-time worthwhile work, but I also know of people in my constituency who are holding down three or four jobs in order to make a living. There must be a question about salaries and regional inequality in the United Kingdom.

In the past 10 years, under successive Westminster Governments, productivity in my county of Gwynedd has fallen by 10% while productivity in central London has risen by more than 5%. Unlike the Westminster Government, the EU recognises wealth inequality as a problem to be addressed, and attempts have been made to make up for Westminster’s neglect and to strengthen Wales’s economy by redistributing wealth. I know we discussed the effects of European structural funds. Could we take a step back and consider where Wales would be if we had not received those funds? They were there for the noble principle of addressing inequality and poverty.

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is somewhat unreasonable in her comments. The European structural funds were provided to ensure that GDP levels in Wales were comparable with the average of the European Union. That measure failed significantly in the Welsh context, and I want to stress that that was not the fault of the European Union. It failed as a result of the way in which the projects were designed in a Welsh context. That has been the problem.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Again, what would the position of Wales have been if we had not received those funds? We may not agree on the way they were used, but I am truly concerned that we are moving to a future in which there is no principle on addressing and raising those funds.

[Guto Bebb]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I am coming to a close.

At a time when we are being pulled out of the European Union, the Westminster Government must stick to their promises at the time of the referendum and ensure that Wales will continue to receive every single penny that it received thanks to the EU’s redistributive wealth policies. I beg to ask the Minister to say what Wales’s fair share will be.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs Moon, and to follow the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane). I want to ensure that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Chris Elmore) is not only congratulated on securing the debate but also has a few minutes to respond at the end of the debate, so my contribution will be somewhat curtailed.

It has been an interesting debate, and I argue that it has been at its best, and the speeches have been at their best, when they have not been partisan. I know I am guilty of being one of the most partisan Members in this place when I want to be, but I will try to respond in a manner similar to most of the speeches we have heard, rather than those with a “Money, money, money” theme, which seemed to be the message from some hon. Members. However, on the whole, the debate has been thoughtful, useful and constructive. I particularly thank the hon. Member for Ogmore, as I have said, for securing the debate and for the majority of his speech, which looked at the core issues at stake. On the whole, it was a constructive speech, although it occasionally fell into supporting the Welsh Government come what may.

The hon. Member for Torfaen (Nick Thomas-Symonds) made an impassioned speech on the importance of people being aware of whether they can or cannot take their opportunities for further education. While I would describe the universities in Wales as the elite universities—not least Aberystwyth University, which I attended—the hon. Gentleman made an important point about aspiration. When looking at some of those giants of recent Welsh history, who came from valley communities, slate quarrying villages and farming stock, and who actually aspired to education, we have to ask why we have lost that in the Welsh context. The hon. Gentleman’s comments are well worth further consideration by those who actually take an interest in the goings-on of this place.

I also welcome the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) to the debate. I congratulate him on his work as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on social mobility, and I appreciate his interest in the cross-border work of the Wales Office. He made some really important points about the London-centric nature of the UK economy, which I subscribe to. I believe that one problem we have, not only in the Welsh context but throughout the UK, is that we have a London-centric view of the world, which needs to be challenged. The hon. Gentleman is clearly doing excellent work as part of the all-party parliamentary group system here in Westminster. I would argue that most of my constructive contributions in this place between 2010 and 2015 were made through all-party parliamentary groups, so I encourage the hon. Gentleman to carry on with his work and to keep on being involved with us in north Wales, in relation to the potential of the north Wales growth deal.

I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Liz Saville Roberts), who highlighted that many of the issues we have talked about, including educational attainment and training and so on, are devolved to the Welsh Government. That point was worth making. However, at the same time, she was quite happy to challenge me, as the Wales Office Minister representing the UK Government.

At this point, I think I need to once again clarify my point about EU structural funds. I congratulate the hon. Members for Vale of Clwyd and for Caerphilly (Wayne David), and all politicians who ensured that Wales received EU structural funds at the highest level, on their involvement at the time. I have said that on the record time and again. The point I have also made, which is still worth reiterating, is that the reason Wales achieved the highest level of EU funding intervention was to ensure that our GDP was comparable to the EU average.

That was not achieved, so before we ask for more money, we need to ask ourselves why that investment did not achieve the desired goals. It is simply not good enough for the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd to claim that the situation would have been even worse without that intervention; we need to ensure that in the future, if we have intervention through a UK Government shared prosperity fund, that intervention improves the GDP of Wales and the life chances of all people in Wales. We should be willing to learn lessons from the fact that the whole purpose of EU structural funds in Wales did not deliver the growth we were hoping for.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

In the spirit of planning ahead, much mention has been made of apprenticeships today. I represent an extremely rural area, where we have a shortage of skills when we are looking at developing, say, the Wylfa site. We need workplaces in which people can undertake apprenticeships. We do not have those workplaces in north-west Wales in sufficient numbers. Will the Minister commit to looking at creative ways of finding workplaces that will enable young men and women to be trained for engineering and construction in the future?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady makes a point that I fully subscribe to. The Wales Office stands ready to support any initiative in a Welsh context that extends the number of apprenticeship places available. We are certainly of the view that the financial contribution made by the UK Government to the Welsh Government through the apprenticeship levy has been significant, and that money should be spent.

The opportunities that exist in north-west Wales include the development of a new nuclear power station in Wylfa and the work going on in Airbus, with the apprenticeship schemes available at RAF Valley. Those schemes are strong. They are making a difference and showing young people that there is an alternative to going to university. I have seen the success stories in north Wales of Coleg Cambria and Grŵp Llandrillo Menai replicated in south Wales with Coleg Merthyr and other colleges, as a result of my role as a Minister in the Wales Office.

I highlighted, for example, how impressed I was with the enthusiasm and commitment of apprentices when I visited the General Dynamics site in Merthyr Tydfil. That is the way to show young people that educational achievement does not necessarily mean aspiring to Oxbridge. There is no reason why anybody in Wales should not aspire to improve themselves from an educational perspective, but that improvement can happen in their local communities. Opportunities should be enhanced for people to get qualifications in the workplace, ensuring that they are earning while learning.

In Wales, we have some of the better further education institutions. They are doing great work, but they should be fully supported by the Welsh Government in delivering more for the people of Wales. I genuinely thought that the comments from the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) were inspiring. Colleagues have said clearly that we need to sell the concept of going further in education. We need to sell the ability of young people to see themselves attending some of our finest institutions.

We need to be proud of the fact that we have a significant entrepreneurial spirit in Wales. How often is that sold in local schools? The biggest success in my constituency since I was elected has been Sean Taylor, a veteran who left the Army and decided to set up a high ropes training and outdoor pursuits centre. He subsequently created the Zip World business, which now employs 240 people in my constituency and the constituency of the hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, 75% of whom are local Welsh speakers. Those people have had an opportunity to work, develop skills and gain qualifications while seeing that setting up a business in their community can make a real difference. I am proud to say that Sean Taylor is the type of entrepreneur who is willing to go out and explain to young people, “You can aspire to university and to a medical or legal profession, but you can also make a big difference in your community.”

I am proud to represent a constituency with one of the highest levels of self-employment. It has been said that in rural Wales, self-employment is often a case of doing anything to earn a living because of people’s pride in themselves and their community, and because no other opportunities are available. We need to make setting up a business and being entrepreneurial a key opportunity for young people to move forward in their communities. Nothing gives me greater pride than when, in my role as a Minister in the Wales Office, I meet young people who have set up businesses in my constituency and across the length and breadth of Wales.

While I thought the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Anna McMorrin) was somewhat partisan in her comments, I am happy to agree that we need to deal with the lack of social mobility. I want to allow the hon. Member for Ogmore a few minutes to respond, but before I finish my comments, I need to touch on some of the issues raised in the debate. Clearly social mobility is important for this Government. It was said in some of the most thoughtful comments by Opposition Members that nobody in the Chamber can be proud of our record on that issue. If, as the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd said, the highest point of social mobility in our history was achieved in 1958, that is a stain on all of us. If, 10 years before I was born, we reached the high point of social mobility in our communities, we genuinely need to ask ourselves what went wrong. No amount of finger pointing between Westminster, the UK Government and the Welsh Government will change anything unless we are willing to acknowledge where we have a weakness.

This debate is entitled “Social mobility in Wales”. We have agreed that education is crucial, and we need to acknowledge that in Wales we are not performing as we should. I am not going to say anything more than that, but we all acknowledge that we are not performing in Wales to the standard of the UK as a whole or the rest of our competitors in the European Union. We need to be very clear about that. When Germany found itself failing under the PISA regime, it acted, and in 10 years it managed to get itself from a very low level to once again leading. The report on PISA in Germany sent shockwaves through the German political system, and the question I ask is: why are those shockwaves not resonating through the corridors of the Welsh Government in Cardiff? We need to do a lot of work on education. It is not perfect in England, but it is certainly not as good as it should be in Wales, and Members should acknowledge that.

Members have highlighted the need to ensure that the concept of lifelong learning is understood. That is why investment in our further education colleges is crucial. The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston made the crucial point that education, and certainly education in the workplace, does not end at the age of 18 or 21. It is increasingly the case that 35 to 50-year-olds are looking to retrain. As we are all living longer and expected to work longer, we have to acknowledge that we need to adapt to the workplace. One of the key things I have seen at further education colleges that I have visited in Wales is their commitment to take on apprentices regardless of their age.

Another issue that we need to be aware of is the importance of making work pay. We have seen in Wales since 2010 a significant reduction in the number of children in workless households. That is very important. The Office for National Statistics has highlighted that families in which members are in work are, on the whole, in a position to make more of their lives and have better outcomes than those where that is not the case. Interestingly, the ONS statistics also highlight that, regardless of a household’s income level, where there is someone in employment, outcomes are better. I often hear complaints from the Labour party about the type of jobs being created, but we should always take pride in any jobs that are being created and in allowing people to take care of their own future.

One thing that has come out of the debate is that poverty can be measured in financial terms. I acknowledge that. The hon. Members for Torfaen and for Islwyn and others highlighted the importance of dealing with poverty of ambition. We need to be champions within our communities, highlighting to young people that there are financial difficulties in terms of ensuring equality of opportunity, but also challenging the poverty of ambition that blights too many of our communities in Wales and across the United Kingdom.

Rural Economy of Wales

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Tuesday 28th November 2017 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb]

I am absolutely delighted to welcome that comment. It was great to see the hon. Member for Wrexham there. In addition, I am engaging with north Wales MPs and there will be a roundtable session in Gwydyr House with the bid authors and north Wales MPs in due course.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) made a very important point in highlighting the fact that growth deals are bottom up. The key thing is that the proposals from north Wales were coming in from local authorities representing the whole of north Wales. Our responsibility down here in Westminster—the responsibility of the UK Government—and the responsibly of the Welsh Government is to work constructively with the partners in north Wales.

This is the template for an approach for mid-Wales. One of the key things I am aware of as a UK Government Minister representing Wales is the importance of ensuring that we do not forget mid-Wales. One of the key things that we highlighted in the Budget is that, although of course we need to deliver a growth deal for north Wales—after all, in the context of this debate, a significant part of north Wales can undoubtedly be described as rural—we also need to deliver for mid-Wales. I want to be able to stand up and say categorically that we will have delivered growth deals for every single local authority in Wales. We have already delivered for 14 local authorities in south Wales. We are working with the six in north Wales, and we are opening the door to a deal in mid-Wales.

We passionately believe that such deals should come from the bottom up. That is why, in the discussions with the leader of Gwynedd County Council and the chief executive of Carmarthenshire County Council, and in the discussions that Lord Bourne, my fellow Minister in the Wales Office, had yesterday with the chief executive of Ceredigion Council and the vice-chancellor of Aberystwyth University, we were very clear that we do not think that the mid-Wales deal has to be confined to Powys and Ceredigion.

I am sure the hon. Member for Glasgow East (David Linden) is aware of examples in Scotland of counties involved in more than one growth deal. We are keen to ensure that if the proposers from mid-Wales say that they want involvement from south Gwynedd—Meirionnydd, for example—Dyffryn Teifi in Carmarthenshire or even north Pembrokeshire, that is something we can look at, because we want to work to deliver the growth deals that are needed in every part of Wales. If people are telling us that the way to do that is to expand or to work as two counties in mid-Wales, we will listen. I am pleased to say in the spirit of co-operation that, over the past few years, the relationship with the Welsh Government Minister for the economy has been extremely constructive.

One thing that has been highlighted in this debate is that we have an east-west issue in relation to economic development. I would argue—perhaps some Opposition Members would agree—that there was perhaps too much emphasis in the early years of devolution on strengthening ties within Wales, which was perfectly understandable. When a new institution is being created for Wales, there needs to be a coherence to Wales. But we also need to recognise the economic realities, including the links between Newport and Bristol, and the cross-border links in north-east Wales. We need to ensure we have a strong Welsh economy that is able to work with our partners in other parts of the United Kingdom.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn said that Wales is not a peripheral region. I could not agree more. The north Wales growth deal can link to the northern powerhouse and the success stories that are Manchester and Leeds, and a sector deal for the nuclear industry could make a huge difference not just for north-west Wales, but for the entirety of the north Wales economy and the north-west of England economy. That shows clearly that we are not a peripheral region and that we have a huge contribution to make.

I want to touch quickly on the involvement of universities. The hon. Member for Ceredigion was absolutely right to highlight the importance of universities for economic development. He is fortunate to represent not one but two universities in his constituency. The contribution of Glyndwr University and Bangor University to the north Wales growth deal is an example of what can be done. I was pleased that Lord Bourne met the vice-chancellor of Aberystwyth yesterday, because universities will have a crucial role in any mid-Wales growth deal. I encourage the hon. Gentleman to highlight the importance of the university and further education sector in developing growth deals.

I am aware that time is short, so I will highlight some other issues that were raised in debate. Concerns were raised about broadband connectivity. Listening to the hon. Gentleman, I could be forgiven for thinking that I was listening to his predecessor. Broadband connectivity in Ceredigion is indeed a very serious issue, as it is in many parts of rural Wales, although there are some areas where that is not the case. For example, the connectivity in Aberdaron on the Llŷn peninsular, which is much better than the connectivity in the majority of my constituency, is an example of what can be done. Rural Wales can be served if there is a desire to serve rural Wales, but we need some honesty in this Chamber. For broadband connectivity to be supplied across Wales, there has to be a partnership between the private sector, the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Back in September, I announced the £56 million of addition spending to be made available through the claw-back on the contract with BT, but it is disappointing that that figure was lower than the 11% secured for Wales in 2011 because take-up in Wales had been lower. There has been a lack of transparency in Wales about why and how the priorities for rolling out broadband were set. It is unacceptable that Ceredigion—an area with two universities, which can make such a contribution to our rural economy—has been so ill-served by the way the Welsh Government have rolled out the contract. We can rectify the situation, and we need to do so, but that can be done only if we work together.

I expected that the agricultural sector would be more of a key part of this debate. We understand the importance of the agricultural sector for Ceredigion and most of rural Wales, including Powys. The Government have gone a long way in trying to reassure the sector. First, we guaranteed that the funding will be in place until 2020. We also said that there will be comparable funding until 2022. I hear what the hon. Member for Vale of Clwyd (Chris Ruane) is saying about getting guarantees post-2022, but a funding guarantee until after 2022 would be a longer period of certainty than we would have had if we had decided to remain within the European Union. The farming community appreciates that guarantee.

The hon. Member for Ynys Môn made an important point, which I am happy to accept, about the importance of ensuring that our share of future agricultural funding is based on the historical trend, rather than a Barnett-based system. The Wales Office and Ministers representing Wales in the Wales Office will be making that case, but we have to do so with sensitivity because we cannot say to the Welsh Government, “This is a chunk of money for you, but you must spend it on this specific area.” If we did that, we would be accused of a power grab.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Will the Minister give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I am afraid I cannot take an intervention from the hon. Lady because I am coming to the end of my speech.

This has been a constructive debate and the Wales Office is more than delighted to continue it with hon. Members. Our door is always open. The way we are working in north Wales and the way we have worked with the city deals in south Wales show what can be done when we work together on a cross-party, cross-governmental basis. I want to be part of a success story in mid-Wales to follow on from the success story in north Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Wednesday 8th March 2017 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

11. In the context of infrastructure, we have just heard that Brexit rebel Lord Heseltine, who had been overseeing work on the already overdue Swansea city deal, has been ousted by the Government. What hope have we of securing similar deals for the rest of Wales if experts are axed at the whim of an insecure Executive who are fearful of parliamentary sovereignty?

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady highlights an issue that is in the news today. It should be emphasised that the Swansea Bay region city deal has a bottom-up agenda. Lord Heseltine did contribute significant expertise during a challenge session, and I am confident that we will have a city deal for the region, followed by further growth deals for Wales as a result of the Government’s work to ensure that Wales benefits from investment in the same way as any other part of the United Kingdom.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Wednesday 25th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about the percentage of Welsh exports that go to the European Union, but he should realise that access to the single market is what is now crucial. It was very apparent from the decision to leave the European Union that we will not be a member of the single market. We need to negotiate the best possible access deal with the European Union and I think that will be possible in due course.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Last Friday, I visited Trewen farm in Botwnnog with the Farmers Union of Wales. This dairy farm has contributed over £150,000 to the local economy in the last three years, yet only three years from now Welsh farmers are set to face a perfect storm. Can the Minister reveal what transitional arrangements will be put in place to safeguard our rural economy?

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question and the use of the term “perfect storm”. It is an acknowledgement of the press release sent out by the Farmers Union of Wales. I can reassure her that the issue should be about access to the single market, and while the FUW has expressed its concern about the decision to leave the single market, my discussions and meetings with farmers’ unions in Wales, both the FUW and the National Farmers Union, have highlighted access to it as the crucial issue for Welsh farmers.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Ping Pong: House of Commons
Tuesday 24th January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I rise to speak to the second group of amendments, led by amendment 10. My noble Friend Lord Wigley originally welcomed the Government’s announcement that they would devolve power over water, and in Committee he eloquently outlined how an historic wrong could be righted. He set out in great depth how the drowning of Welsh valleys has motivated his politics and the emotions of so many people in Wales, and how 50 years ago in Capel Celyn the compulsory eviction of families from their homes and land meant the destruction of whole communities. Llyn Celyn and Afon Tryweryn are in my constituency.

The high-handed way in which Westminster treated the people of Tryweryn still has repercussions in this place, as well as in communities across Wales. Amendment 30, in which the so-called water protocol is outlined, embodies the entrenched Tory resistance to addressing this injustice in any meaningful terms. What format the so-called protocol may take has never been fleshed out. In this Bill, we do not have a protocol or a draft protocol, and for that matter we do not have an outline of a draft protocol or a protocol by which to arrive at a protocol. However, despite that lack of clarity, the Government are willing to include clauses watering down this already thin provision.

Lords amendment 31 explicitly charges Welsh Ministers with the interest of English consumers when it comes to any changes to our water supply. It is important to note that the amendment specifically references English consumers. We are not concerned with communities or individuals even, but consumers matter and Wales’s natural resources are still not ours to dispose of to our best advantage. That is because the Government are prioritising the primacy of competition over the interests of Wales. The amendment refers us to the Water Industry Act 1991 to define consumers, but that Act was based on promoting competition. Does this mean that the protocol will be based on the Thatcherite dogma that the wellbeing of the consumer—in this case, the water consumer—is tied up with the tenets of free market competition?

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I thank the Minister for explaining this earlier, but perhaps he will explain it further.

[Guto Bebb]

The contents of the protocol and whether it includes a Thatcherite dogma are surely a matter for the Welsh Government to agree with Westminster, so there will be no Thatcherite dogma unless the Welsh Government agree to it.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

The Minister explained earlier that competition is a reserved matter. In this case, that prompts the question, what does such a dogma have to do with the reserved powers model for Wales, in relation to this most emotive of all subjects? My party and many people in Wales feel cheated. When the Minister played the card of water devolution, we were led to believe that this would be a real game changer, but I am afraid it is no more than smoke and mirrors.

We considered pushing Lords amendment 30 to a vote, but we will spare the Chamber such an exercise, given that we might only manage to tweak the wording of something we have already opposed. I want the record to reflect, however, that my hon. Friends and I will not be taken in by empty words dressed up as substance from the Government. This remains a cynical political sleight of hand—endeavouring to gain capital from an historical event of deep emotional significance in Wales.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Wednesday 30th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has regular discussions with the Department in question on this issue. No member of staff working on behalf of the state should be threatened or subject to violence in their workplace, so it is essential that we support prison officers in that context and crack down hard on anybody who is responsible for violence within or outside the prison sector.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I speak as the co-chair of the cross-party justice unions parliamentary group. HMP Berwyn is due to open in less than three months’ time. Given that the National Offender Management Service is committed to ensuring that it gives equal treatment to English and Welsh in Wales, will the Minister tell the House how he is monitoring the language skills of staff in Wrexham? The MOJ has told me that:

“Data on the number of bilingual Welsh and English speakers…is not collected centrally.”

[Guto Bebb]

First, I hope that the hon. Lady welcomes the fact that the prison in Wrexham is being built, as it is a significant investment in north-east Wales and a significant opportunity for the north Wales economy. On the Welsh language issue, it is fair to say that the Department responsible has made it clear that the number of jobs being created at Wrexham will reflect the demographic realities in north Wales, and as a result there will be Welsh-speaking staff in the prison at Berwyn. That will be a great improvement on the current situation, where Welsh-speaking prisoners end up in the estate in England.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Wednesday 19th October 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I agree entirely with the comments made by my right hon. Friend.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that the Department for Transport and its predecessors have prevaricated over funding rail electrification in north Wales for more than 40 years, and can he give us a definite date for the project to move ahead?

[Guto Bebb]

I agree with the hon. Lady that the situation in north Wales has been one of under-investment for a very long time, so it is important to highlight the current investments: £43 million for signalling in north Wales, and a significant investment in the Chester links into Wrexham. It is important to look at the Growth Track 360 proposals carefully and coherently to see how we can improve connectivity through rail in north Wales.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Monday 12th September 2016 Commons Chamber

[Liz Saville Roberts]

If the hon. Gentleman will forgive me, the amendment goes into detail, even in relation to the court structures and the professional structures that would be required. I argue strongly that we are travelling on this trajectory, and what is important is the quality of justice and the quality of decisions made in Wales in relation to legislation made in Wales.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Guto Bebb)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies) asked a pertinent question: what are the advantages to Wales? The St David’s Day agreement was about powers for a purpose. Has the hon. Lady read the fantastic article by Gwion Lewis in this month’s issue of Barn, in which he highlights the way in which the Supreme Court met in Cardiff and made a decision in relation to Welsh language education in Denbighshire, a decision which I am sure the hon. Lady would welcome? What would a distinct legal jurisdiction have decided differently in that case?

[Liz Saville Roberts]

We would argue that a distinct legal jurisdiction is needed for the quality of decisions to be made consistently. We are travelling in that direction. We need clarity on the matter. To be simple about it and not to reiterate the details that are in the amendment, the Welsh Assembly is the only legislature in the world that does not have its own jurisdiction. That in itself is a pretty clear argument.

We offer the Government a pragmatic solution to the issue that will ensure the long-term sustainability of this devolution deal for the people of Wales. Obviously, Plaid Cymru would prefer to see a clean break, with the creation of a separate legal jurisdiction, but our amendment offers a reasonable position that I hope the whole House will recognise as necessary. For this reason, I will be pressing the amendment to the vote.

On the Government and Opposition amendments, new clause 4 stops the devolution of decision-making powers over when to hold elections for police and crime commissioners in Wales. As it is another example of this Government’s shameful misunderstanding of what devolution means, we will not support this amendment if it is pressed to the vote, but we do not intend voting against it. Government amendments 3 to 8 are uncontentious and technical, and warrant no further discussion at this point.

A number of Government amendments are based on recommendations made in July by the Presiding Officer of the National Assembly for Wales, Elin Jones. Plaid Cymru had tabled these amendment in earlier stages and we are pleased to see that the Secretary of State has now endorsed our position. We are disappointed, however, that the Government have failed to recognise the Presiding Officer’s recommendations concerning the legislative consent process and the restoration of the Assembly’s current ability to legislate in an “ancillary” way on exceptions from competence.

Amendments 9 to 12 give the Presiding Officer, rather than the Secretary of State, powers over when to call a Welsh general election. These amendments, based on the Presiding Officer’s recommendations, are welcomed by Plaid Cymru and will be supported. We support Government amendments 14 to 18, which make changes to the finance provisions in the Bill. These are further examples of amendments proposed by the Presiding Officer which the Government have accepted. We also support the related consequential amendments, Government amendments 30, 31, 44, 48 and 51.

Amendments 19 to 22 laid by the Government insert the Welsh names of institutions into the Bill for clarity. These amendments are not controversial. Government amendment 26, which clarifies the ability of an Assembly Act to specify the prosecutor of an offence within devolved competence, is also based on the recommendations made by the Presiding Officer. I appreciate the Secretary of State’s explanation of this clarifying amendment, which we support.

Plaid Cymru also supports Government amendments 28 and 29. Amendment 28 allows for changes to the role of the Children’s Commissioner by the Assembly. Amendment 29 removes prohibition on the ability of an Assembly Act to modify sections 145 and 145A of the Government of Wales Act 1998, relating to examinations and studies by the Auditor General for Wales—again, a change suggested by the Presiding Officer. Government amendments 32 and 34 to 36 are technical changes or remove errors in the wording of the Bill. Government amendment 33 clarifies areas in which areas UK Ministers will retain authority. Although this is a technical change, we fundamentally disagree with the principle of this section of the Bill and will, if necessary, vote against the amendment.

Government amendments 39 to 42 increase the number of devolved bodies listed in schedule 4. We are pleased that the list has expanded, but the fact that the Government has had to expand it before the Bill is even enacted illustrates what Plaid Cymru has said from the beginning—that the Bill is overly restrictive and in the long term will inevitably become unworkable.

Amendment 43, tabled by the Government, allows Orders in Council to be used to make provision for proclamations related to the timing of elections, as provided for by amendments 11 and 12. As we support amendments 11 and 12, we will also support this amendment. Government amendment 49 is a technical change relating to the understanding of Wales public authorities. This amendment is not contentious. Government amendments 52 to 57 are either consequential or technical amendments. There is no need for comment on them at this time.

In conclusion, I look forward to the Secretary of State’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman asks me to comment on a hypothetical assertion. I shall refrain from doing so, but it is important to highlight that the Silk commission considered very carefully the difference between the porous nature of the border between England and Wales and the situation in Scotland. On balance, it is my view that the Silk commission came to the right conclusion, which is why we will reject the hon. Gentleman’s proposals. The Wales Act 2014 legislated for the vast majority of the recommendations in the Silk commission’s first report, and our focus should be to work with the Welsh Government to implement it.

On new clause 8, the youth justice system, as with other elements of the criminal justice system, is not currently devolved, but significant responsibilities in relation to the management and rehabilitation of young offenders are exercised by local authorities in Wales, working in partnership with the police and devolved services such as health, children’s services and education. Devolved and non-devolved services already work successfully together in Wales to prevent youth offending, and to manage and support young offenders in the community. The Youth Justice Board provides national oversight and monitoring of those arrangements, and the Youth Justice Board Cymru has worked closely with the Welsh Government to develop a joint youth offending strategy. That establishes a coherent framework for all those involved in delivering youth justice services and ensures that there is an effective youth justice system that meets the needs of young people in Wales.

The Silk commission noted that many of the causes of youth offending relate to devolved matters, and its recommendation on devolution was aimed at promoting greater integration. However, there was no consensus in favour of devolution when youth justice was discussed as part of the St David’s Day process. The Government believe it is important that legislative competence for youth justice remains reserved to allow us to develop a consistent and coherent approach to criminal justice, and the management of offenders across all age groups, within the single legal jurisdiction. There would be significant practical challenges in devolving responsibility for youth justice in Wales while responsibility for the police, courts and other elements of the criminal justice system are reserved.

We place a high priority on addressing youth offending and maintaining a strong relationship with the Welsh Government on those matters. The Ministry of Justice is currently considering the final report of Charlie Taylor, the former chief executive of the National College of Teaching and Leadership, on his review of the youth justice system. As part of his review, he visited Wales to meet Welsh Ministers and to see local youth offending services. The Ministry of Justice will work closely with the Welsh Government to consider the recommendations made in the final report with a view to publishing the report later this year with plans for reform. Given the co-operation that exists between devolved and non-devolved organisations, which we will seek to maintain in taking forward any plans for reform, we are not persuaded that devolving youth justice to create a separate youth justice system in Wales would result in a more flexible, economical or effective response to youth offending.

New clause 9, proposed by the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards), would open the door to the apprenticeship levy becoming a devolved tax. When introducing the apprenticeship levy, the Government wanted to make the system as simple as possible for employers to operate, and to avoid adverse impacts on the integrated UK-wide single market. Operating a UK-wide levy based on the national insurance definition of earnings is the best way to achieve this outcome. In particular, it is applied consistently to employers wherever they operate within the UK single market, while this definition of earnings is something that employers are familiar with and is information they readily have in their payroll. This also avoids considerable practical difficulties that would arise if there were different rates and thresholds of the apprenticeship levy in different parts of the UK, which appears to be the thrust of new clause 9. For example, as the charge is on the employer, it would be necessary to determine how such a system would operate for organisations working across borders. This would create additional burdens for businesses that we believe are sensibly avoided. In addition, the Government have made it quite clear that devolved nations will get their fair share of the levy, and discussions are ongoing.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

I would like the Minister to answer my question in this case. There is real uncertainty about how much would go to Wales. How will there be transparency in relation to the apprenticeship levy when there will be companies with a head office in another area outside Wales with employees in Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

The aim of the negotiations between the Welsh Government and the Treasury is to ensure a fair funding formula for Wales. On transparency, I think the hon. Lady is aware that decisions on spending in Wales are decisions for the Welsh Government, so the transparency issue will arise at that point. I can assure her that the ongoing discussions between the Treasury and the Welsh Government are being conducted in the spirit of co-operation. We want the levy to succeed. Whether a young person is from Wales or England, the aim is to ensure there is support for that person’s training. We are therefore fully committed to working with the Welsh Government, but to devolve this tax would create a complexity that is unjustified in the context of the border between England and Wales, and owing to the fact that the border is so different to the situation in Scotland. That is why we think the amendment is misguided.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Wednesday 13th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Gentleman is a champion of the agricultural sector—there is no doubt about that. I can assure him, once again, that the Wales Office has already had meetings with the farming unions. We can certainly offer the guarantee that the current funding arrangements will be in place until at least 2018, but the ongoing support for Welsh farming will be subject to agreements involving this Government, the way in which we exit the European Union and the decisions taken by the future Prime Minister.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Given that the common agricultural policy and rural development programme contribute hundreds of millions of pounds to the Welsh rural economy, what UK exit scenario could possibly best serve Wales?

[Guto Bebb]

As the hon. Lady knows, I argued for Wales and the UK to stay within the EU, but the reality is that Wales voted to leave. It is therefore crucial that we support the industries that are dependent on exporting to the EU. We have a quality product offered by Welsh agriculture, so it is imperative that we talk up that market and support the sector to the best of our abilities. Again, I give assurance to the farming unions that the current funding situation is in place until 2018.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Monday 11th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

I am very sympathetic to the concept of tidal lagoons, but, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware, a review is being undertaken at this time and I would not want to prejudge it. It is being undertaken by Charles Hendry, who is well respected across this House.

Clause 37 allows Welsh Ministers to make declarations extinguishing public rights of navigation, so as to ensure safety out to the seaward limits of the territorial sea in relation to generating stations up to 350MW. Clause 38 aligns, in a single authority, the ability to consent both to a generating station itself and the associated overhead line which would connect that station to the transmission system. It does so by removing consenting applicable requirements under either the Electricity Act 1989 or the Planning Act 2008 for certain associated overhead lines with a transmission capacity of up to 132kV necessary for connecting generating stations of up to 350MW capacity. This is an attempt to generate a one-stop shop for energy opportunities of that size in Wales. The Silk commission rightly identified that a one-stop shop should be developed, and the Bill tries to deliver that in a Welsh context.

Government amendments 47 to 49 correct an inadvertent constraint in the current drafting of clause 38 by removing the presumption that Welsh Ministers are the devolved consenting authority.

On clause 39, the Planning Act 2008 introduced the concept of “associated development”—development that the Secretary of State could consent to as part of the development consent orders which underpin and facilitate major development projects. The ability to grant associated development allows for more of the complete projects to be delivered within a single consent, to try to make the situation easier for developers. In Wales, the benefit of this approach has hitherto been restricted only to certain activities around the construction of underground gas storage facilities. Clause 39 amends relevant definitions in the Planning Act 2008 to extend the scope of associated development in Wales to include activities accompanying generating projects above 350 MW and larger overhead lines connections of 132 kV. Again, it fulfils a St David’s day commitment and implements a Silk commission recommendation.

I think it is fair to say that amendments 158 to 160, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Chris Davies), seek to re-open matters which have already been debated in the context of the Energy Act 2016. That Act delivered the Government’s manifesto commitment to give local people the final say on wind farm applications. It also ensured that in Wales it is for the Assembly and Welsh Ministers to decide how decisions are taken. I see no basis for rowing back from that position now, but I agree wholeheartedly with my hon. Friend that the Welsh Government should ensure that local people in Wales have the final say on these matters.

In our discussion of the Bill, we have talked about the importance of financial accountability, but this is also a case of political accountability. In my constituency, Aberconwy, we had the development of the Gwynt y Môr wind farm. I think I am right in saying that every single councillor in the Conwy local authority area voted against the development, but it was imposed by diktat by the then Energy Secretary. The important point is that the changes and the power given to local communities as a result of Acts passed by the coalition Government were a direct response to that political need for change. If the Assembly Government are guilty of taking powers into their own hands, there is political accountability there which needs to be challenged and needs to be part of the political discourse in Wales.

The Energy Act has ended subsidy for new onshore wind. If an onshore wind project does not already have planning permission, it is not going to be eligible for subsidy under the renewables obligation. In all the circumstances, therefore, the amendment should not be pressed to a vote.

Clauses 40 and 41 devolve further powers to Welsh Ministers in respect of equal opportunities. The powers follow as closely as possible the approach adopted in Scotland, but the two approaches are not identical. Clause 40 covers the operation of the public sector equalities duty. It removes the requirement in section 152 of the Equality Act 2010 that the Welsh Ministers consult a Minister of the Crown prior to making an order amending the list of Welsh public authorities that are subject to the duty, replacing it with a requirement to inform.

Clause 41 provides for the commencement and implementation of part 1 of the Equality Act 2010 in Wales. Part 1 imposes a duty on certain public bodies to have due regard to socio-economic considerations when making strategic decisions. Clause 41 allows the Welsh Ministers to bring part 1 into force in Wales on a date of their choosing. It also enables Welsh Ministers to amend the 2010 Act to add or remove relevant authorities that are to be subject to the duty, without first consulting a Minister of the Crown.

Clauses 42 and 43 extend Welsh Ministers’ existing responsibilities for marine licensing and marine conservation in the Welsh inshore region to the Welsh offshore region. The clauses fulfil St David’s day commitments and implement recommendations in the Silk commission’s second report.

Clause 44 enables the Secretary of State to intervene on legislation or Executive activities where she has reasonable grounds to believe that these might have a serious adverse impact on sewerage in England. As part of this Bill, legislative competence for sewerage will be devolved, subject to the matters set out in C15 of new schedule 7A. These powers of intervention are similar to those already held by the Secretary of State in relation to water. They may be used where an Act of the Assembly, or the exercise, or failure to exercise, a relevant function might have a serious adverse impact on sewerage services and systems in England.

Amendments 81,125 and 126, tabled by the hon. Member for Arfon, seek to take forward the recommendations of the Silk commission in relation to water and sewerage. The Silk report recognised that water and sewerage devolution is complex and that further work to consider the practical implications was needed. The Government set up the Joint Governments Programme Board with the Welsh Government to look at these issues and report on the likely effects that implementing the commission’s recommendations would have on the efficient delivery of water and sewerage services, consumers and the water undertakers themselves. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State explained earlier, that work has concluded and the Government are considering the evidence before deciding whether and how the recommendations will be taken forward. We will consider carefully the interests of customers and businesses on both sides of the border before reaching that decision. It should be stressed that this issue is under consideration.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

Will this material be available when we are next discussing the Bill? If I remember correctly, I first heard about that working group when we were discussing the 50 years since Capel Celyn. As we are now nine months down the road, it would be appropriate for it to be reported to the House before the Bill comes to the end of its journey.

[Guto Bebb]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. Her recollection is correct. We have only just received the report, so consideration of it must now take place. It is now with the Wales Office, and, after it has been considered, we will, in the manner described by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, discuss the contents of the report with other parties who have an interest in the Wales Bill.

Clause 45 fulfils a St David’s day commitment and a Silk commission recommendation to devolve to Welsh Ministers the power to make building regulations for “excepted energy buildings” such as generating stations and gas storage facilities. Clause 46 formalises the current differing arrangements for consulting the Welsh Ministers on renewable energy incentive schemes.

Amendments 130 to 132, which were submitted by the Opposition, would require the Secretary of State to gain the consent of Welsh Ministers, rather than to consult them. Energy policy is a reserved matter as regards Great Britain. Maintaining consistency provides for workable schemes, certainty to the industry and fairness to consumers. It is right that responsibility for renewable energy incentive schemes should rest with UK Ministers. I hope that that comment has been welcomed by my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies).

Clause 47 implements for Wales the conclusions of the HM Treasury review of the Office for Budget Responsibility, published last year. The OBR has a statutory duty to carry out a number of core functions, including to produce fiscal and economic forecasts. This clause ensures that it will continue to receive information from Wales as necessary to fulfil that duty. It reflects the increased fiscal devolution to the Assembly, and the Welsh Government’s competence for economic development. These roles mean that the OBR is more likely to require and use information held in Wales to fulfil its remit.

Clause 48 increases the accountability of Ofgem to the Assembly. Clause 49 provides that where a coal operator wants to mine in Wales, it must seek the approval of Welsh Ministers as part of its application for a licence. Clause 50 increases the accountability of Ofcom to the Assembly and Welsh Ministers. It goes further by giving Welsh Ministers the power to appoint one member to the Ofcom board who is capable of representing the interests of Wales.

Clauses 51 and 52 and schedule 5 and 6 make consequential and transitional provision relating to the Bill. Clause 51 allows the Secretary of State to make consequential amendments by regulations in connection with this Bill, and through amendments 82, 144 to 147 and 150 to 154, the Opposition parties are seeking to give the Assembly a role in approving those regulations. Amendments 144 to 147 would require the Assembly also to approve those regulations where such consequential amendments are within the Assembly’s competence or where they alter the Assembly’s competence. Amendments 82 and 150 to 154 would achieve the same with regard to consequential amendments that amend Acts or measures of the Assembly or secondary legislation made by the Welsh Ministers.

Clause 51 is a fairly typical consequential provision that ensures that the Government are able to tidy up the statute book where required in connection with this Bill. Indeed, similar provisions are included in Assembly legislation as well. Giving the Assembly a role in approving the Secretary of State’s regulations made under this clause would be as unjustified as giving Parliament a role in approving Welsh Ministers’ regulations made under Assembly Acts. It would also make the process far more complicated and time consuming than it needs to be. In reality, we would discuss any proposed changes that impacted on the Assembly’s competence with the Welsh Government before regulations were laid.

Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Tuesday 14th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

Well—[Interruption]—as the Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) just said from the Treasury Bench, it took 13 years for it to become a Labour manifesto commitment, yet we have delivered it within a few months of having a majority Conservative Government. I think we should be very proud of the fact that we have delivered that funding floor.

Significant questions have been asked about the retention of the two necessity tests. Those two tests are justified. We are saying clearly that there is a necessity test where the Assembly is legislating on matters that affect England. That is the right thing to do because there is an issue of accountability and democracy, and I do not think the Assembly should be legislating on issues that relate to England without having the necessity test. In the same way, where the Assembly seeks to legislate on matters that relate to reserved powers, it is important to have that necessity test. It should be noted that that second test is also in the Scottish Bill.

The hon. Member for Llanelli asked whether there will be a disincentive for devolved ports to grow. I am pleased to confirm that the Bill is clear that the sum in question is a fixed sum at the point at which this Bill is passed. For example, if a port has a turnover of £14 million, it will be devolved; if it then grows, it will remain devolved. There is no prospect of a clawback. In relation to a trust port, the argument for retaining responsibility for Milford Haven in Westminster is clearly made by the fact that it is responsible for 62% of all our gas imports. But this is again a step in the right direction and if, for example, as a result of the Welsh Government or the Welsh Assembly’s activity there is growth in the ports of Holyhead or Newport, they will remain part of the responsibility of the Welsh Government. That is a step in the right direction.

The hon. Member for Arfon mentioned that there is a difference between the way we treat water services and sewerage. The reason why one is mentioned in the Bill and the other is not is because we are now equalising the situation. As the hon. Gentleman knows, we are also looking carefully at the situation in relation to water, and more information will be forthcoming at a future point.

Several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West, highlighted issues in relation to energy. It is fair to say that this House has legislated to pass responsibility for wind farm developments to local authorities in Wales, and I think there should be a challenge to the Welsh Government as to why they do not trust local authorities with that responsibility. The Energy Act 2016 made that commitment to a local level of control on wind farms. I think we should all challenge the Welsh Government as to why they are unwilling to trust the local people on an issue of that nature.

The capacity of power lines was also touched on. Again, clarity is required here. It is correct to say that there will be a limitation in that power lines going across the border at a higher level than 132 kV will remain the responsibility of Westminster whereas other such matters will be devolved. This, too, is a significant step in the right direction that will make a real difference for economic development in Wales.

The hon. Member for Ceredigion highlighted three matters on the reservation list and asked why they had been reserved. One was the Severn crossing, which I touched on in an intervention. We believe that it is inappropriate to devolve powers over the Severn bridges when three of the four landing points are in England. That would be taking devolution to an extent that would bring it into disrepute. He also asked about prostitution, which does not fall into the category of legislating for criminal behaviour. It falls under schedule 2, because the aim is to ensure that there is no possibility of changing the legislation. We had to place it separately within the legislation in order to respond to legal constraints. He also asked about heating and cooling systems, and the aim there is to ensure that everything to do with electricity and gas appliances is regulated in the same manner across England and Wales. Again, this is an effort to ensure clarity.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West asked about speed limits being devolved. It is important to point out that that was a recommendation by the Silk commission. The proposal was also part of the St David’s day process and there was agreement on it at that stage. Also, changes to speed limits in Wales are already being implemented at local authority level, so we believe that this is an appropriate change.

It is fair to say that this is a complex and difficult Bill. It has had a long gestation period, and it is been subject to significant scrutiny here in the House and in the Welsh Assembly, as well as by civic society in Wales.

[Liz Saville Roberts]

A number of Members have asked about the timing in relation to the Justice in Wales working group. I would appreciate a response on whether we will get the report back from the working group before the Bill goes into Committee, because it will be relevant to our work there.

[Guto Bebb]

In my view, it is unlikely that the report will be produced before the Committee stage, but it is possible that it will be with us before Report and Third Reading. Obviously, decisions relating to Report and Third Reading will be made by the Leader of the House. I hope that that gives the hon. Lady some certainty.

As I was saying, this is an important Bill. It clarifies the devolution settlement and puts into place the St David’s day agreement. It makes devolution clearer by putting in place a reserved powers model of devolution for Wales, with a clearer line between what is devolved and what is reserved, and I think that most people in Wales—especially the politicians—will welcome that clarity. It strengthens devolution through a further historic transfer of powers, and those powers will make a real difference to the lives of people in Wales. It will make devolution fairer, and it removes the requirement for a referendum before the devolution of income tax in order to ensure that that accountability exists. It is fair to say that we have listened to the concerns raised during the pre-legislative scrutiny of the draft Bill and made significant changes to try to address those concerns. As a result, we have in front of us a much improved Bill that deserves to go before a Committee of this House. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.



WALES BILL (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Wales Bill:

Committal

1. The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Proceedings in Committee

2. Proceedings in the Committee of the whole House shall be completed in two days.

3. The proceedings shall be taken on the days shown in the first column of the following Table and in the order so shown.

4. The proceedings shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion at the times specified in the second column of the Table.

Connaught Income Fund

Debate between Guto Bebb and Liz Saville Roberts

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

Again, I fully endorse those comments. We are in this House this evening almost giving a cry for help to the Minister, where the all-party group and Members of Parliament have failed to deliver on behalf of their constituents. I sincerely hope that she can intervene and ensure that at least a degree of clarity is offered.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I wish to raise a wider issue. Unregulated collective investment schemes are not permitted to be marketed to the general public, as one would expect, but does the hon. Gentleman not agree that this needs proper enforcement and that it may not always take place?

[Guto Bebb]

That is a point that I subscribe to and agree with, and it should be considered in due course.

The questions that I have for the Minister are pretty clear. First, in view of the FCA’s recent decision to cancel its proposed review of banking standards and culture, can we have a guarantee that the investigation will be completed by the FCA? Many people affected by this issue have contacted me, expressing their concern that, in view of the delays and the lack of information from the FCA, the review will be completed.

Secondly, the FCA unilaterally withdrew from the mediation process, without any consultation with stakeholders or investors. Can the Minister assure us that the FCA will, upon completion of its investigations, publicly justify its decision to curtail the process of mediation and the subsequent delay in compensation and redress?

Thirdly, it has also been implied that the reason for curtailing the mediation process was a result of a realisation within the FCA that the financial compensation on offer from the mediation process would not be sufficient. Is that the case? As we have had no clarity or confirmation that that is the case, will the Minister give us some assurances on the matter? If it is not the case, will the FCA be able to explain why it therefore curtailed the mediation?