Wales Bill

Debate between Guto Bebb and Elfyn Llwyd

Tuesday 6th May 2014 Commons Chamber

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Mr Llwyd]

I will give way a final time on this point, because I want to speak to my own new clauses.

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. Is it not the case that a Member of Parliament has a responsibility to speak up on behalf of their constituents, including people who work in the health service who, time after time, come to me with complaints? They do so quietly and behind the scenes, because they know their positions will be endangered. We have a responsibility to speak up for patients and NHS staff in Wales, who are very aware of the fact that the standard of service is not appropriate.

[Mr Llwyd]

I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. He may know that I was very critical of the Welsh Government for going down the track of closing smaller hospitals, leaving nothing in their wake and pretending that care in the community was available when it was not. I am not uncritical. We should voice concerns when they need to be voiced.

New clause 1 stands in my name and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Arfon (Hywel Williams) and for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards). If accepted, it would require the Government to review the options for reforming the Barnett formula in order to ensure that Wales is funded on the basis of need rather than population share, as is currently the case. Of course, it is out of the scope of this Bill to seek to change the Barnett formula and make sure that Wales is funded on the basis of need, but the issue of fair funding has become an integral part of the public and political discourse on the powers it offers and we seek to highlight its importance.

Although the need for fair funding—as reform of the Barnett formula has become known in Wales—was not set as part of the remit of the Commission on Devolution in Wales, the cynical among us might view that as a ploy by the Government to continue to ignore the ongoing loss to Wales of between £300 million and £400 million per annum, which is an incredibly large sum of money for such a small country.

Earlier, we debated the need for borrowing and the £500 million limit. We are actually undersold £400 million per annum already, and we do not seem to be too concerned about that or, at least, nobody has been in any great rush to address it. I venture to suggest that if that were put right, the £400 million could be very useful to the Welsh Government immediately.

The so-called formula was devised in the 1970s by Joel Barnett MP, who is now Lord Barnett in the other place. He was a Treasury Minister at the time, and he saw that a simple stop-gap means of funding Wales would be to do so on the basis of its share of population—about 5% of the UK total. However, since the 1970s, Wales’s GVA has fallen as a percentage of the UK’s, and Wales now has a higher number of disabled and older people as a percentage of the population than our friends in England. The formula was intended to be only temporary, before a longer-term and more equitable solution could be found. Politicians of all parties recognise that it is unjust and needs reform, except those in government—whoever is in government at the time.

As part of our One Wales coalition Government agreement in the last National Assembly, Plaid Cymru demanded that an independent commission be put together to examine the shortfall in the funding which Wales evidently misses out on each year through how the block grant is currently calculated. The Independent Commission on Funding and Finance for Wales, expertly chaired by the widely respected Gerald Holtham, entirely vindicated what we have said for upwards of 30 years—that Wales has been losing out. Indeed, the £300 million to £400 million figure has been endorsed by another Committee, the Constitutional Committee in the other place, which separately came to a similar conclusion.

Plaid Cymru has been campaigning for reform of the Barnett formula and to secure fair funding for Wales on the basis of need for more than three decades. In all my time in the House, which spans more than two decades, we have returned to this continuing injustice time and again. If I may reminisce for a second or two, I remember asking successive Labour Secretaries of State for Wales why they would not reform the Barnett formula. I do not seek to embarrass my good friend the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy)—he had to stick to his brief at the time—but there is now an acknowledgment that we are underfunded, and that therefore needs to be put right. As in any other part of the UK, we need to ensure fair funding in Wales, which is something that no democrat would deny.

Imagine my surprise when it emerged that the Labour party had put a caveat on devolving income tax powers for Wales, by stating that it would not hold a referendum until fair funding had been secured. The fact that it wilfully ignored the problem and even denied that there was one during 13 years in power in Westminster must be the symptom of a grave case of collective amnesia. The cynical among us would call that expedient, to say the least, while others might be tempted to see it as a roadblock in the path of greater devolution for Wales, put in place by the anti-devolution tendency that appears to be in the ascendancy among Labour Members from Wales at Westminster.

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[Mr Llwyd]

It was raised in line with inflation—[Interruption.] Let me finish. Other responsibilities came to Cardiff—virtually all the agriculture, the environment and various other things came in. [Interruption.] I would like to know the percentage, but I am not in a position to determine one way or another whether it amounted to a substantial increase. I do not think it was substantial: it was clearly above inflation, but other responsibilities had been devolved to Cardiff by that time.

Without trying your patience, Mr Crausby, I would like briefly to speak to Plaid Cymru’s new clause 10. The Silk commission’s recommendation 28—a brief one, you will be pleased to hear—states that the Welsh Government should set up a Welsh Treasury to manage the new powers contained within the report. The new clause extends that arrangement to the Bill. It is a simple but important new clause. In the spirit of our other amendments, it seeks to preserve the integrity of the cross-party Silk commission recommendations.

The commission recommended that if the Welsh Government are to be directly responsible for revenue raised in Wales, as will be the case with the advent of the Bill’s powers, they must develop their finance department into a Welsh Treasury. That is a common-sense approach. If the National Assembly for Wales decides to do this, in accordance with its will, so be it. It would avoid the need for inefficient and perhaps time-wasting tidying-up exercises, such as appear in the first part of the Bill. People in Wales have been referring to “the Welsh Government”—a change of name—so there should be no problem with calling the finance department “the Welsh Treasury”. It is common sense for that to happen. I hope that this simple new clause will be supported by both sides of the Committee.

[Guto Bebb]

I shall speak briefly to my amendments 12, 13 and 14, of which I am proud. I associate myself, too, not only with the amendment tabled by the Chairman of the Welsh Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T. C. Davies), but with his speech. There was nothing in it that was an attack on Wales. He was simply highlighting a real concern of our constituents that needs to be addressed. I believe that the amendments provide the opportunity to deal with the fact that we need an NHS that serves the people of Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb]

The hon. Lady is mistaken. The NHS England website poses the question,

“Can I have a GP in Wales if I live in England?”

The answer is:

“Yes you can, but… Patient choice and the NHS Constitution do not apply to the NHS in Wales.”

In other words, patient choice does apply in England, but it does not apply in Wales.

It is important that this issue is debated, because the Government in Cardiff Bay state that the NHS in Wales is as good as the NHS in England. That is exactly the issue that our amendments highlight. They make it very clear that if patients from England elect to use services in Wales, there will be a corresponding change to the funding block, and if patients from Wales elect to use services in England, there will be a corresponding change to the block. If the confidence in the Welsh NHS that Opposition Members express in the media and on television is genuine, they would see no danger in the amendments. The amendments would simply allow patients from Wales who want to be treated in England and patients from England who want to be treated in Wales to have that choice. They are simply trying to ensure that we have an NHS that is national. Why is that so scary to the so-called party of the NHS? That question needs to be answered in this debate.

Secondly, I want to touch on the comments of the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). I was genuinely disappointed to hear the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth described as an attack on Wales. It is important in a mature democracy that we are able to highlight areas where service levels in Wales are not as good as they should be, because we should aspire to have the best. Whether we are talking about the NHS or education, we have a duty to highlight places where Wales is underperforming. To try to kill off that debate by arguing that all Members who highlight concerns on behalf of their constituents are in some way attacking NHS staff is unacceptable.

I might be suggesting that there is a motive where none exists, but perhaps the defensiveness that was articulated by the right hon. Gentleman reflects the fact that patient choice in Wales disappeared as a result of the “One Wales” Government. According to the House of Commons Library, the “One Wales” Government “eliminated patient choice”. Those are not my words, but the words of the House of Commons Library. It states clearly:

“Patients registered with a GP in Wales do not have a statutory right to choose at which hospital they receive treatment.”

The “One Wales” Government moved from patient choice to patient voice. That was a good soundbite that appealed to people who like poems that rhyme. However, in the Betsi Cadwaladr trust, patient voice meant that if somebody made a complaint, they might get a response in six months. Patient choice, which is what these amendments propose, means that patients in north Wales who feel that they would be better served by electing to be treated at a hospital in England would have that choice.

[Mr Llwyd]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that I do not have people crowding into my office to say that they were badly treated at the hospitals in Llandudno, Bodelwyddan or Wrexham or at Ysbyty Gwynedd, Bangor? People often come in to say, “If you’re in contact with those hospitals, will you please say that the care was excellent and that I have nothing but praise for them?” I do not recognise the problem that he perceives. I am not sure what I am saying about what he is saying, but I do not recognise the problems that he and the hon. Member for Monmouth have highlighted. I do not see those problems every day. If I did, perhaps I would join them.

North Wales Economy

Debate between Guto Bebb and Elfyn Llwyd

Tuesday 1st April 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

It is a great pleasure to take part in the debate. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). As I recall, he and I were elected back in 1992 on the very same day.

In November last year, I wrote an article in The Independent, sparked by the disturbing news about wage levels in Dwyfor Meirionnydd: 40% of people in full-time work were earning less than the living wage, which is considered unacceptable where there is no help from tax credits and so on. In the article, I noted that rural poverty is just as grinding as urban poverty. What is most disappointing is that the area that I have the honour to represent was once an industrial area central to the cementing of Wales’s position as the birthplace of the industrial revolution. The question is about not the quantity of jobs, but their quality, and our problem is the low-wage economy that we all struggle with in north Wales. That is not a political point; it is something that we all need to aspire to get rid of. There are disparities within the UK, which is probably the state with the greatest disparities in the European sector.

There is hope and no lack of ambition, however, as the right hon. Member for Delyn said. Last October, I hosted a parliamentary day for Meirionnydd, alongside the Farmers Union of Wales, showcasing the constituency’s small businesses, which are thriving in a time of austerity. Cutting business rates, lending to businesses, and apprenticeships for young people lie at the heart of my party’s plan for the north Wales economic recovery. Indeed, that will benefit the whole of the Welsh economy, as the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) said. We have long called for a living wage to ease the squeeze on people’s pockets. It would make a substantial difference to living standards in constituencies such as mine, and across the whole of north Wales. Fair pay is essential. We need to put an end to exploitative, zero-hours contracts. I will not enter the political arena on this issue, because I am not sure where my friends in the Labour party stand on it—there is one view in Cardiff and one here—but in any event, such contracts should have no place in a modern economy.

Transport links, as the right hon. Member for Delyn said, are essential for any development of the north Wales economy. We still await notification from the UK Government of the electrification of the north Wales main line. The Secretary of State has indicated that he is in favour of it, but has had remarkably little success so far in persuading his Cabinet colleagues. Wales still does not have a single mile of electrified track; it is comparable with Albania, in European terms. The trans-European network, as the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen) said, is another area where the UK Government, as well as the Welsh Government, have to get moving. The rail line to Holyhead has been left off the European top-tier corridor projects, thanks, unfortunately, to the UK Government illogically guiding the route to Liverpool for the ferry to Dublin, rather than along to Holyhead, which is the most obvious route. That decision needs to be looked at again.

Away from transport links, we in Plaid Cymru have been focusing on the need to develop the small and medium-sized enterprises sector in Wales. SMEs are the backbone of the Welsh economy. It is often said, and I believe it is true, that about 90% of employment in Wales is in the SME sector. Gone are the days of inviting large international companies to bring in a massive factory and showering them with cash, only to see them leave a few years later. We must build from within. Plaid Cymru has put forward a range of proposals on business rates and financial support for SMEs. Discussions are ongoing in the National Assembly on that issue, and Plaid Cymru and others are playing our part.

The right hon. Member for Delyn rightly referred to tourism, which is a vital part of north Wales’s economy. We have many things to brag about, such as the iconic Snowdon and the Snowdon railway, our lakes and the unique charm of Portmeirion. Last week, Antur Stiniog in Blaenau Ffestiniog opened a mountain bike circuit, and the following day there was a UK championship with 2,000 competitors. Coed-y-Brenin is another of the premier mountain bike venues in Wales and beyond.

[Guto Bebb]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a significant point about the adventure tourism sector in north Wales. Will he join me in congratulating my constituent, Mr Sean Taylor, who has opened the largest zip wire in Europe in Bethesda?

[Mr Llwyd]

Yes. When I represented the valley, I used to help him as well. I got him started, so I can take part of the credit. I am pleased to join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating his constituent. It is a great pleasure to see a business such as his succeed. We have fishing, climbing, sailing, hiking—the whole lot. Of course we need to increase footfall, but the main thing we need to address is the need to increase the visitor spend. We need to up our game, but it is not beyond our knowledge and ken to do that.

Other measures that can improve the north Wales economy include a private sector-led industrial development authority to leverage investment into the Welsh economy. That is not dissimilar from the suggestion that the hon. Member for Wrexham (Ian Lucas) made. I still believe it was a mistake to do away with the Welsh Development Agency. Yes, it was a quango, but it did a good job and it was a brand that was known worldwide. But it went, and with it went the Development Board for Rural Wales, and nothing has been put in its place. The small business sector in rural Wales has lost that important arm of assistance, which was always there and was effective.

We believe that we need a public development bank to lend to SMEs and help develop local industries. Five years on from the crisis, SMEs are still being squeezed and the banks are still not giving them fair play. We should focus on the productive economy, rather than using funding for lending to asset-lend in the form of mortgages and pumping up another house price bubble.

Welsh Language (Non-devolved Departments)

Debate between Guto Bebb and Elfyn Llwyd

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I do not want to show my age, but I served on the Standing Committee that considered the 1993 Act. I confirm that Lord Roberts of Conwy played a huge part in getting that Bill through, and we need to thank him for that.

The hon. Gentleman is making a valid point. I found that, in the old days, Home Office documents, however large, were translated into Welsh. That is not the case now. If his point is that we need to get some better co-operation between our friends in Wales and the people here, I am fully with him.

[Guto Bebb]

That is the intention of this debate. It is to examine what sort of co-operation is now required and how that can be moved forward. My concern is the extent to which the Welsh Assembly, when it looks at how it can legislate, has concentrated on devolved areas, and possibly the baby was thrown out with the bath water in relation to non-devolved areas.