English Votes for English Laws and North Wales

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Wednesday 1st July 2015 Westminster Hall

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby.

Four minutes is not a long time to discuss the issues raised by the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), whom I congratulate on securing this debate. He is a champion for his constituency and for North Wales, and there is no doubt that he has raised some genuine concerns that are felt across the region and, indeed, recognised in the wider United Kingdom. Nevertheless, it is a shame that the main thrust of his argument was that we should establish a UK constitutional convention along the lines proposed in the Labour party manifesto for the 2015 general election. If there was ever a need for such a convention, it has long since passed.

The truth is that we have a devolution settlement that was not particularly well thought through. I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Clwyd West (Mr Jones), who highlighted the fact that the devolution settlement we have was created without any real thought as to how to ensure that it was fair and equitable. Nevertheless, we are where we are. We must address how we move forward equitably and reasonably.

It is interesting to note that many Members from North Wales will say that they want to retain the ability to influence the services provided by, for example, the English NHS—the hon. Member for Ynys Môn spoke about the health service. It is true that people from North Wales go to Greater Manchester or the Merseyside area for specialist services, but it is also true that people from England come to Cardiff for specialist services. My cousin is a consultant in a hospital in Cardiff, and he treats people from South Wales and people from England. The point still stands: it is clear that, as Welsh MPs, we have no ability to influence most of the health services provided by the Welsh Assembly, but English MPs have no ability to influence how their constituents are treated if they require support.

The situation in North Wales is very clear: specialist services are generally provided from England, but the same is not necessarily true in all parts of the kingdom. The issue remains: how do we reach an equitable situation so that Members from North Wales and England have the ability to influence decisions? It is important to recognise that there is a feeling of unfairness, even along the North Wales coast. Having spoken to people who have moved into North Wales from England, I know that there is a feeling that there is something inequitable in the devolution situation.

Saying that we need a constitutional convention to try to address the inequities is over-egging the cake. We have not been talking about the West Lothian question only since 1977, when Tam Dalyell started to talk about it; Gladstone talked about it back in the 19th century. We can talk about it until the cows come home, but really we need to take action. I genuinely believe that the current inequity is a bigger threat to the devolution settlement than doing nothing. I am afraid that the example from Scotland and other parts of the UK is that, often, constitutional conventions are set up when there is a desire to kick something into the long grass.

We need to ensure that laws that relate only to England can be influenced by Members from Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but the main decision-making on those specific laws that are deemed English-only should be made by English MPs.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Guto Bebb]

I will take only one intervention, because of the time.

[Ian C. Lucas]

What is an English-only law?

[Guto Bebb]

That is a key point. We have to have some confidence in the ability of this House and Parliament as a whole to come to a conclusion and define a specific law as English, English and Welsh, or UK-wide. The hon. Gentleman has highlighted a crucial point: we are talking as if a deal has been done, but the detail of the Government’s proposals has not yet been announced—

[Ian C. Lucas]

Give us an example.

[Guto Bebb]

In my view, it is clear that many Bills will be categorised as English and Welsh. In many cases, they will be categorised as UK-wide. Nevertheless, we have to accept that there is a principle that needs to be dealt with.

Finally, my hon. Friend the Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach), who was previously a colleague of mine in North Wales, made an important point: anyone who believes in devolution cannot be very pleased with how the Welsh Assembly has worked, because it has sucked power into Cardiff. I want to stress, however, that that is not necessarily a failure of devolution; I would argue that it is a failure of how the Labour party has dealt with devolution in Wales.

--- Later in debate ---

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

I will be brief, Mr Crausby. The definition of an English-only law is crucial to this debate. The problem is that the Government are leaving us completely in the dark. We are having this debate only because my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), whom I congratulate, initiated it. I tabled a question for the Secretary of State for Wales about what consultation he had had with the people of Wales on proposals for English votes for English laws. That question was transferred to the Leader of the House. I believe that virtually no consultation has taken place.

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Ian C. Lucas]

I do not have time to give way, as the hon. Gentleman well knows.

Not only has the Secretary of State not consulted the people of Wales, but he has not consulted Members of Parliament. There has been no discussion whatever with MPs on the issue. That is a crucial point. Mr Speaker will need to have the wisdom of Solomon to determine what is an English-only law. The first thing he should do is visit North Wales and Cheshire. Our region is unique in the United Kingdom and exemplifies why this question is so difficult.

I expect nationalists to divide, separate and try to have a culture of blame between each part of our country. I do not expect those of us who believe in the United Kingdom to argue in favour of division or separateness. Whatever our political background, we should stand together to work out a proper way of doing this, with consultation. That is what we need.

I will make a proposal. There are Members from North Wales who take a sensible approach to the matter. Representatives of the Mersey Dee Alliance are here in Parliament today. We need an all-party group for the Mersey-Dee region, to put the case in Parliament for a cross-border economic and cultural environment. We have that opportunity within the context of this debate. We need the Government to start to listen. Their ignorance is palpable, and they have closed their ears.