Wales Bill

Guto Bebb Excerpts

Monday 31st March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Hain]

I will not give way, because I want to make some progress. While all that was going on, someone in Wales said to me:

“If I want to defeat constituency candidates because I don’t like them and I succeed and they are defeated, why should they pop up on the list claiming to represent me?”

That is the point. There is an honourable, constitutional and necessary role to be played by list Assembly Members across the whole region that they represent. There is no justification for seeking to abuse the system by getting involved in local constituency matters to try to win back a seat at the following election using that position and that resource. That is the fundamental point.

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hain]

Not for a moment, no. The Government of Wales Act 2006 put the voters back in charge. If they did not want to elect somebody, they did not have to do so. The Act stopped the prevailing situation before then in which Assembly candidates could decide to place a “both ways” bet, by standing in both categories in order to win, even if they were kicked out by the electorate. To his shame, the Secretary of State is seeking to reintroduce that both ways bet.

There was an unholy coalition of Conservatives, nationalists and Liberal Democrats opposed to abolishing that abuse. Now they have reincarnated that unholy coalition in defiance of the popular will. Why are they so afraid of taking their choice to the people? Why are they so afraid of losing constituency elections that they need the lifebelt of standing on the lists as well?

[Guto Bebb]

rose—

[Mr Hain]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can answer that question.

[Guto Bebb]

It is the case that the Welsh system of electing Members to the Assembly is replicated in many parts of the world, but the only country that has a similar ban is Ukraine. The Bevan Foundation, a Labour party think-tank, is of the view that the ban should be withdrawn.

[Mr Hain]

I have no idea whether the abuse that we have seen in Wales, which I am now documenting for the House, applied in Ukraine as well. Lord Richard chaired the commission—[Interruption.] I will now present a lot of detailed evidence on that abuse for the sake of the hon. Members who are seeking to intervene and the whole of the House. Lord Richard chaired the commission that reported in 2004. He recommended the extra powers for the Assembly, which my 2006 Act delivered. He told the Welsh Affairs Committee:

“There is something wrong in a situation in which five people can stand in Clwyd, none of them can be elected, and then they all get into the Assembly. On the face of it, that does not make sense. I think a lot of people in Wales find that it does not.”

That is not me, a former Secretary of State who banned the abuse, speaking, but Lord Richard who carried through an eminent report.

The eminent Welsh Academic, Dr Denis Balsom—again, not a politically partisan figure—said in his evidence to the Richard commission:

“Candidates use the list as an insurance against failing to win a constituency contest. This dual candidacy can also confuse the electorate, who may wish to consciously reject a particular candidate only to find them elected via the list. It should remain a basic democratic right not to elect a particular candidate or to be able to vote a Member out.”

That is a right that the Government, supported by Conservatives and members of other parties in Wales, are seeking to deny the electorate. That is not democratically defensible.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Harper]

No. I read the Committee’s report very carefully, and it did not say that we should keep the status quo at all; it said what the hon. Lady just read out. All that the Secretary of State’s proposals will do is return the system to the position that existed before the Labour party changed it in the Government of Wales Act 2006. All that we are doing is reversing it and putting it back to the original position. I read the report carefully and I am sure, knowing how Select Committees work—its Chair confirmed that it was quite hard to get agreement—that those words were chosen very carefully, and it absolutely did not say that we should stick with the status quo. My guess is that if someone had suggested that it said that, it would not have received cross-party agreement.

[Guto Bebb]

As a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I did indeed agree to the sentence the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) just read out, because I thought that it referred to the possibility of a further change if Labour won power any time before 2025.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Notwithstanding that point, the hon. Lady’s Front-Bench colleague, the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith), committed at the Dispatch Box to reversing the provision, if I heard him correctly. Her admonition against frequent change should be aimed at him as much as the Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in this important debate. I will be brief, as most of what I had intended to say has already been said, and said quite eloquently. It is important to touch on some of the arguments that have been made today.

Let me start with the issue of double-jobbing. We have had a degree of confusion from the Opposition Benches over the issue of whether or not a list Member can stand in a constituency. Such confusion ill becomes this Chamber, because the argument we have heard is basically one against the d’Hondt system of electing Members to any Assembly, which is one with which I have some sympathy. The decision to choose that system was taken by the Labour Government, by the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain) who is no longer in his place. It is odd to argue that that system is being used in a way that allows people to stand in individual constituencies and on the list in almost every single country that operates it apart from Ukraine and Wales. It is difficult to argue that Wales should be following the lead from Ukraine rather than from any other democratic country in Europe.

That argument is a red herring, and it is undoubtedly the case that the gerrymandering happened in 2006 when the ban came into place. If Opposition Members, who have given us a number of anecdotal stories about the issue, were to go to mid-Wales, they would hear plenty of people talking about the loss they felt when my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) failed to be returned to the Assembly, because of the change in the legislation by the Labour party. He was a fine Assembly Member, and would have continued to be so if it were not for the gerrymandering of the system. It is clear that this Bill aims to address that matter, and it addresses it in a way that represents the views of the civic society and three of the political parties in Wales. It is a shame that the parochial and partisan nature of the Opposition means that they cannot support this much-needed change.

It is also important to point out that I sympathise with some of the comments made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), who is no longer in his seat, in relation to the issue of five-year terms. As a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, I have supported the recommendation as it stands, but I have some reservations. It is not necessarily the case that I am opposed to an extension to five years to the Assembly term; it is more that I have reservations about taking a five-year term as a norm. I would be fairly relaxed if we decided to move to four-year terms in Westminster and the Assembly.

I fully accept that the argument for a five-year term for the Assembly is to ensure that the two elections do not clash, but I have reservations about whether five years is, in any way, shape or form, better than four. As things stand, the intention of the legislation is to ensure that Assembly elections can be held separately from Westminster elections, which is something that I support. However, I also agree with the hon. Member for Rhondda that we always seem to extend terms rather than reduce them, which is a shame.

Let me turn to the issues of importance in the Bill. My personal view is that the key issue is financial and fiscal accountability. We can talk about all the elements of the legislation, but in truth we are considering an attempt to ensure that the Welsh Government and the Welsh Assembly are accountable for fiscal decisions made in Wales. It is here that we see the confusion in the Opposition’s argument.

Yes, it certainly was a sunny Saturday in Llandudno. As I did not want to impose myself on the Welsh Labour party conference, I was personally in Llanfairfechan, where the weather was also suitably good. However, we should reflect on the confusion that came out of the Welsh Labour conference. When I argued in not one but two Welsh Grand Committees for the concept of fiscal accountability, I was informed in fairly robust terms by the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) that the Welsh Assembly did not need any further accountability. Indeed, I can quote the hon. Gentleman, who is no longer in his seat, directly:

“I have just made the point that I do not believe for a moment that having additional responsibility for tax-varying powers would confer any extra degree of accountability on the Welsh people.”—[Official Report, Welsh Grand Committee, 5 February 2014; c. 18.]

I am delighted to see that he has just returned to his seat. He made those comments on 5 February, yet at the conference on Sunday we had his new Llandudno declaration. Clearly, a road to Damascus conversion occurred somewhere along the A470 between Pontypridd and Llandudno.

[Albert Owen]

It will come as no surprise to the hon. Gentleman that we are a democratic party and our conferences are the places where we make such decisions as a democratic body. I know that he has been a member of other parties, but that is the position of the Labour party. If he wants clarification, perhaps he should ask questions rather than giving opinions.

[Guto Bebb]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I am sure that the Labour party is a democratic institution; it also believes strongly in the hereditary principle, as we have found out from Aberavon.

The hon. Member for Pontypridd made a clear statement in the Welsh Grand Committee on 5 February that there was no need for fiscal devolution for the Welsh Government to have any further accountability, yet in his speech in Llandudno on Sunday he clearly made the point that the further devolution of income tax varying powers so that they were on a par with those in Scotland was necessary to give that accountability.

[Mr David Jones]

I think I ought to tell my hon. Friend that I ventured into Llandudno on Saturday and it was reasonably quiet there. Does he not get the impression, as I do, that far from its being a damascene conversion on the part of the shadow Secretary of State, it is more likely that he has been leaned on by his bosses in London and Cardiff?

[Guto Bebb]

I would not want to offer an opinion on whether the hon. Gentleman has been leaned on or not. There is clearly a significant difference between the comments made in the Welsh Grand Committee on 5 February and the speech delivered in my constituency on Sunday and those differences need to be reflected on, because ultimately I agree with the speech that he made on Sunday. There is clearly a need for fiscal accountability for the Welsh Government. If we are to have grown-up politics in Cardiff Bay, it is important that decisions about spending and raising money should be taken by the elected politicians there. It is a step in the right direction to have a proposal in the Bill that will allow the Assembly, if it so desires, to trigger a referendum to allow a degree of control over income tax to be devolved to the Welsh Assembly in Cardiff. That is the key point about this legislation, which attempts to work with the grain of Welsh public opinion. The income tax variation is not being imposed on Wales; the Welsh Government, or the Welsh Assembly for that matter, are being allowed the ability to ask for those powers and trigger a referendum. The challenge for the Welsh Government will be to ask themselves whether to trigger that referendum or not.

Let me make a brief final point about the tax accountability issue, as I am aware that the debate has gone on for quite a while. The Select Committee had a significant and long discussion about whether we needed a lockstep or not. As some Opposition Members may wish to remind me, we had that debate in the Welsh Conservative party too. My own view is that the lockstep is something I can comfortably live with. The hon. Member for Arfon (Hywel Williams) made an interesting point on the arguments about whether the progressive nature of our tax system would be affected by the lockstep. He argued about whether, if we increased taxes by a penny on the standard rate and a penny on the 40p rate, we would make the system less progressive. The reverse argument can be put. For example, if we reduced the standard rate by 2p and the 40p tax rate by 2p, that would in effect be more progressive because it would give a 10% cut to the standard rate taxpayer and a 5% cut to the 40% taxpayer. As a Welsh Conservative who believes in lower taxes, I am confident that those powers will be necessary to reduce taxes in Wales. If we reduce taxes using the lockstep, the result will be a more, rather than a less, progressive system. The principle of fiscal accountability justifies the imposition of the lockstep at this point in time. As such, I am happy to support the Bill as it stands.