Bedroom Tax (Scotland)

Debate between Graeme Morrice and Esther McVey

Thursday 8th May 2014 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. I thank the Liaison Committee for securing this debate and I welcome the attention that the Scottish Affairs Committee is giving to welfare reform generally and to housing benefit reform specifically. I appreciate the opportunity to put the Government’s position in this debate. The Committee produced both this report and the subsequent report without seeking any input from the Department or its Ministers.

It may be helpful to discuss why this policy was introduced in the first place. The issue is difficult and complex. It has taken up a lot of time on all sides of the House, as well as the Government’s time. However, people have to understand what we are looking to solve, because we were delivered a huge problem by the Labour party, now in Opposition: a housing bill spiralling out of control, going up from £13 billion in 2002-03 to £24 billion in 2012-13—as it would have been—and increasing. What were we going to do? This was unaffordable. How was it going to be affordable, not just now but in the future, for future generations? Who was going to pick up that debt and solve this issue, and get as fair a solution as possible?

Of course, we are listening to what is said about people today who will end up having to pay a certain amount of money for extra rooms in their houses, but what about the people in the private rented sector who are still getting paid housing benefit? They do not have the luxury of a spare room in their houses. The Labour party introduced this very same change in housing benefit—

[Graeme Morrice]

Will the Minister give way?

[Esther McVey]

I will not give way at the moment.

The Labour party introduced this same change in 2008 and, at the same time, it was talking about its implementation. So I am afraid it does not wash, now, when Labour are in Opposition—

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[Esther McVey]

I am not just talking numbers; I am talking lives of people right across the country who are affected by this. We are looking to save £500 million per year. That is what is being rolled out and what is being saved, because at the moment people are moving into other homes. At the moment, that is the amount being saved.

[Graeme Morrice]

rose—

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[Esther McVey]

Thank you, Mr Bone.

As we look at the question, it comes into sharper focus. I need to remind all hon. Members, particularly those on the Opposition Benches, that Labour Members fully supported and voted for an overall welfare cap—[Interruption.] Some Scottish National party Members did not vote for it. My question for the Opposition and Committee members is this: if savings are not to come from housing benefit, which aspects of welfare spending and the welfare bill—potentially £500 million a year—are they going to cut? Will it be disability benefits or support to children, or will pensioners be affected? All this is rather complex, because I am afraid that the Opposition voted for an overall welfare cap.

[Graeme Morrice]

The right hon. Lady talks about the cost. Does she not accept that the evidence provided to the Committee by various witnesses from Scotland and beyond—all the housing providers, welfare rights organisations, tenants, local authorities and even the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities—says that the cap is costing everybody more money than it is saving? How does the Minister respond to that, and particularly to the COSLA figure, supported by all political parties in Scotland, that in Scotland it is costing an additional £60 million to administer?

[Esther McVey]

I do not agree with that. We are seeing people moving round. The debate never considers the people in overcrowded accommodation. There is an issue in Scotland in that regard, too, although the problem is not as big there as in the rest of Britain. What about people living in overcrowded accommodation? What are we to do with people who do not have the right-sized room for their children, whether disabled or otherwise? What about people on housing waiting lists? We are forgetting about all these other people who have issues, too.

[Graeme Morrice]

We have not.

[Esther McVey]

I am afraid that, in opposition, the Labour party has forgotten about those people. We are dealing with those people. I should like to state some facts about arrears, which were mentioned by the hon. Members for Glasgow South West (Mr Davidson), and for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell). The regular Scottish household survey found that arrears in December 2013 were lower than at the same point in both 2012 and 2011, and 55% of Scottish social landlords reported a fall in the percentage of their rent arrears between March and December 2013. These are the figures that we are looking at. The Chair of the Committee asked about support for disabled people. I have talked about that and the extra money in that regard.

The right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms) talked about the difference between a tax and a subsidy. He is a mathematician—he went to university with a friend of mine—so I know that he knows the difference between a subsidy and a tax. However, I wonder whether it is because the Opposition do not know the difference between the two that we are in incredible debt at the moment. They do not understand the ins and outs of money and how it is best spent; that is why they left us with a £150-billion-a-year deficit.

Remploy

Debate between Graeme Morrice and Esther McVey

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Westminster Hall

[Esther McVey]

I have held numerous meetings on the matter. I have asked the very same questions that the hon. Gentleman has asked. I have felt reassured by the answers I have been given. Remploy announced and published the commercial process on 20 March and the company has been following that process. We are aware that some people and some bidders may be disappointed, but we are content that the commercial process has been followed. So I hope that gives the hon. Gentleman suitable comfort about what is going on.

A substantial package of help and support for employees has been put in place. An extra £8 million has gone into that package. People will get their own personal caseworker, who will give them tailor-made support and help them to move forward.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North East asked several questions. One was about the emergency tax code. That was brought to my attention last month and immediately my team and I worked with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to get it sorted so that the Remploy staff and their caseworkers knew what would happen and they would have their money back as soon as possible, so special measures were put in place absolutely immediately. I also checked that the staff would have money and would not be short. They would all have had their redundancy pay packages, so they would have money to live on—it would be fine—but this was put through as a special concession.

[Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) on securing this very important debate on a subject about which I have received many representations from constituents and others. On the issue of support for the work force and for those who are losing their jobs, will the Minister confirm how many people from Remploy who have lost their jobs have found alternative employment to date?

[Esther McVey]

So far to date, 35 staff immediately found work. But we are content that with the support, the packages and the monitoring that we are hoping to provide for everyone, we will get that number up as soon as possible.

I actually got figures that I again hope will put the hon. Gentleman’s mind at ease. In Scotland, there were 111 people—that does not seem quite right. I apologise; I will look again. I will go back to the hon. Member for Glasgow North East and say that in his constituency a total of 14,600 people are disabled, and 43 of them work at the Remploy site. However, in the last year, under the Remploy employment services, 534 people had got into work. So, if we look at those figures, we can see that incredible support has gone in there to help find work for people similar to the staff working in Remploy.

I will continue with the Springburn site. Remploy communicated via its website in September that it had selected a preferred bidder for the site and that that preferred bidder is now entering a period of due diligence, which will hopefully end in Remploy’s successful exit from the business. A final decision on Springburn will be made as soon as the commercial due diligence process is complete, which we understand will be some time at the end of October.

Going forward, for Springburn and Chesterfield to secure future health care business as part of the commercial process, the Scottish Government would have the opportunity, under their devolved powers, to support medical contracts and help to secure the continuing viability of those sites. Again, that is possibly something that hon. Members can work on together.

[Graeme Morrice]

The Minister mentioned the Scottish Government. Have the UK Government had any consultation with the Scottish Government on this issue?

[Esther McVey]

We have indeed, and I will be in Edinburgh on Monday. We will have continued dialogue on that subject. I also hope to meet the factory workers in Edinburgh and while I am there I would like to see as many staff as possible—those who do not have their job now and those who do. There is an open invitation for people to come and meet me, and I will be in the factory.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North East also raised the issue of TUPE. Any purchaser of a Remploy site will have to offer a pension scheme in which transferring employees can accrue future rights. If TUPE regulations apply to a transfer, purchasers will have to match employees’ contributions up to 6% of pensionable pay, in line with pension legislation. We understand that for the Springburn site TUPE regulations will apply to the transfer.

I hope that I have answered as many questions as possible.

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[Graeme Morrice]

Inspiration.

[Esther McVey]

Absolutely. It is not just inspiration, but the support of a good team. The independent panel has considered the comments of Scottish and Welsh representatives. I think a report will be coming out on that. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and I met yesterday, and I hope that he now has a meeting with the CEO of Remploy. Straight away, I asked what we could do in the Aberdeen factory. All the points he raised with me about the assets, the factory and site ownership were dealt with this morning. I do not have the answers, but we are on to that. My phone lines are open. I am always here. If anybody wants to know anything more, I will be available to answer their questions.