Anglo-Polish Relations

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. My right hon. Friend the Minister drew to my attention a newspaper article about that beautiful young Polish girl, who was found hanged in school as a result of being bullied by a racist gang.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am going to make some progress, but then I will give way.

The hon. Member for Ealing North (Stephen Pound) is of course correct, and that is why the Polish war memorial is important. Such visible signs of the contribution of Poles to the United Kingdom are important, because we must explain to younger generations why so many Poles are here. Many are here because they came to continue the fight against fascism, and then stayed here as part of the community. No one accentuates the importance of that better than Senator Anders, whom I am sure the hon. Member for Ealing North has met. She is the daughter of the esteemed General Władysław Anders, who was an important figure for Poland. Not only is she the senator for Suwalki area, where British troops are deployed at the moment, but she has been appointed as a special roving ambassador to engage with the Polish diaspora around the world and commemorate and recognise their contributions to their host nations. I pay tribute to her, because Poland needs recognition for its unique contributions.

An area of dissent in the European Union is refugees. Poland has recently taken more than 1.3 million refugees from the terrible fighting in Ukraine. My Polish friends tell me that there are now 1.3 million Ukrainians in employment in Poland, but some figures put the number of Ukrainians in Poland as high as 1.5 million or 1.7 million. On my summer holidays to the Polish seaside resort of Sopot, where I go every year, I see for myself the huge number of Ukrainians working in restaurants and cafés, and throughout the community.

Poland is not demanding a resettlement of those Ukrainians or any special help from the European Union in dealing with those huge numbers of refugees streaming across her border. In fact, Poland has already done a great deal to help and support those refugees in escaping the fighting and difficulties they have experienced in Ukraine, yet Germany and the European Union are now talking about sanctions against Poland for not taking the requisite number of Syrian refugees. I find that dangerous and frightening, quite frankly. We have a history of welcoming refugees to our nation, and we are proud of that, but that decision must come from the grassroots. It must bubble up from society, as happens in our country.

What frightens me is the idea that the European Union can somehow unilaterally dictate an allocation of certain types of refugee to be distributed to Poland, against the express wishes of the democratically elected Polish Government. The issue is clearly polarising, but we must respect the will of the Polish Government. I consider one European country or the European Union itself threatening sanctions to be blackmail and intimidation, and the United Kingdom must support Poland on the issue. The referendum showed that no matter what happens with the European Union, we believe in the supremacy of individual sovereign nations and their ability to be directly accountable to their people for all policies that they implement.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I do not really want to get into a debate about our domestic immigration policies. I am proud that the United Kingdom has provided more money than any country apart from America for refugee camps in Jordan and Lebanon, but of course we can do more.

A key point that I want to raise with the Minister is that because we are leaving the European Union, people say to me, “What’s it got to do with you? Your power and influence in the European Union is bound to wane over the next two years, and then you will have no influence at all.” One Conservative MP said to me today, “You’re blowing in the wind here; we will not have any influence in the European Union.” But the fact remains that we will of course continue to have influence. As a major European power, security, stability, peace and confidence on the European continent is vital to us, and we must continue to engage and support countries such as Poland on this issue and others.

I say to the Minister that when Germany behaves in such a way, it needs to be called out for double standards. On the one hand Germany talks about the unique importance of solidarity within the European Union, and says that there has to be redistribution of refugees around the whole of the European Union, but on the other hand it implements policies that go completely against that concept. One example is the Nord Stream 2 pipeline—a massive project to build an undersea gas and oil pipeline from St Petersburg to Germany, completely bypassing the whole of central and eastern Europe. We all understand and appreciate the importance of energy security for all our NATO partners in central and eastern Europe. They are building liquefied gas terminals on the Baltic sea and starting to buy more gas from Qatar and the United States of America, but a common energy policy with the Russians is needed. The Russians understand only strength, and any differences between those countries will give Russia increased leverage to turn off the taps or to put pressure on some of those countries if things do not go its way.

I am really disappointed by Germany’s conduct over the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, and I very much hope that my right hon. Friend and other Ministers will raise the issue with their German counterparts. What discussions has my right hon. Friend had with his German counterpart to highlight concerns about the lack of support for central and eastern Europe on the Nord Stream 2 pipeline? As I said, it is vital for our interests that countries in central and eastern Europe and the Baltic states continue to have energy security.

Does my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) still wish to intervene? I was rude not to give way to my constituency neighbour from just across the border in Wales. I give way to him.

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for allowing me to intervene and to express my admiration for the Polish people. A huge number of Polish people have moved to my constituency and, I am sure, to many others. They work incredibly hard and are committed to their families—that is their reputation—all on top of the commitment that those of us of a certain age know they made to the freedom of our country in the last war. We in Montgomeryshire have great admiration for the Polish people. I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing the debate and on the speech he is making.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am grateful to my constituency neighbour and hon. Friend for those kind remarks.

Another key issue for our Polish friends is the need for a permanent NATO base in eastern Poland. I will be the first in the debate to recognise the contribution that the United Kingdom has already made in sending rotational troops to the Suwalki gap. We are all proud that more than 150 British soldiers from the Light Dragoons are in Poland playing their role in sending a strong message to the Russians that the new demarcation line between NATO and Russia is there to stay and must not be infringed, and that the United Kingdom will never tolerate any infringement on the sovereignty of our NATO partners in central and eastern Europe. I am sure that is a red line for every hon. Member in this Chamber and throughout the entire House of Commons and House of Lords.

We are all scarred by the terrible consequences for Poland of the Yalta conference—being imprisoned behind the iron curtain for 60 years—and of the initial attack on 1 September 1939. I am particularly scarred, if I may say so, after listening to my beloved grandfather speak of those consequences. It will take generations to forget and forgive what happened at that time. However, we must now show the Poles that we are resolute, and that our word is our bond when it comes to upholding the article 5 clauses in the NATO treaty that guarantee Poland’s sovereignty and independence.

I have asked many questions on the Floor of the House about the steps the Government will take to be at the vanguard of pushing for a permanent NATO base in Poland. I have had various oral replies, none of which have been satisfactory. The answer from Ministers is, “That is a decision for NATO.” Of course it is, but we have an opportunity to show our Polish friends and allies that we are at the forefront of understanding their requests for a permanent NATO base. We ought to use our senior position within that organisation to push very hard to ensure that there is a permanent NATO base in eastern Poland. We need to take the lead on this issue.

We also need to take the lead in trying to alleviate tensions with Russia and on the Minsk II agreements, which have so far been prioritised and led by France and Germany. I was recently discussing with a Conservative colleague why we did not get involved initially in the Minsk I and II agreements. As a major European power, we clearly have a duty and responsibility to join Germany and France in trying to resolve the tensions between Russia and Ukraine, which are a major source of instability in central and eastern Europe.

When I was debating with German Members of Parliament at the Royal United Services Institute last week, I challenged them on the German stance with regard to permanent NATO bases in Poland. I have to say that I did not get unequivocal support from them; they are rather sitting on the fence. The Minister may correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe the Germans want a permanent NATO base in eastern Poland. They are happy with the main focus of NATO being in Germany and protecting Germany. The only NATO base in Poland at the moment is right on the Polish-German border, in Szczecin, so if there were any incursion, only a tiny bit of Poland would potentially be protected.

The Germans and Angela Merkel have a long-standing relationship with President Putin. Angela Merkel probably has the greatest understanding of the Russian President, speaking Russian and having known and negotiated with him for a long time, but we in the United Kingdom need to challenge the Germans on that issue. Yes, we must have dialogue with the Russians and co-operate with them, but we need to ensure at the same time that there is a carrot-and-stick approach to them, and part of that must be a permanent NATO base in Poland.

I am conscious that other hon. Members wish to speak, so I will shortly wrap up my comments, but the other point I want to raise with the Minister is that we must fight, along with our Polish friends, not to tolerate a single European army in the post-Brexit world. We all remember the picture of Signor Renzi, Mrs Merkel and Monsieur Hollande standing on top of an Italian aircraft carrier stating that they wanted a single European army. Some people on the continent even say that they can no longer depend on the British and Americans for a security umbrella for Europe. That is very wrong and very dangerous, and nothing must happen to usurp the power and responsibility of NATO as a collective defence mechanism for the whole continent.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. In the referendum campaign in Shrewsbury, one couple came up to me and said, “I’m going to vote for remain because the European Union has maintained peace in Europe over the last 60 years,” and I had to spend the next 15 minutes explaining very succinctly that it is nothing to do with the European Union. What has kept peace in Europe in our time, thank God, has been that collective defence mechanism—anchored, I have to say, by support from the Americans and the Canadians. Undoubtedly many very important countries are part of that defence mechanism, such as Norway and Turkey, which in my view are unlikely to become members of the European Union. It is very important that those countries—in addition to America, Canada and the United Kingdom, which is pulling out of the European Union—are central to the collective defence capability that we all require.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman: we must trumpet the importance of NATO. We must also work with our Polish friends to ensure that they take the lead within the European Union in ensuring that, although the United Kingdom is pulling out of the EU, NATO continues to be supreme as the sole common defence umbrella for the whole continent.

I would like to take a moment to pay tribute to the 900,000 Poles who are living in the United Kingdom. Prince William said yesterday in his speech in Warsaw that Polish is now the second most spoken language in the United Kingdom.

[Glyn Davies]

Not Welsh?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I hear my hon. Friend from across the border mentioning Welsh, but he will have to take that dispute up with Prince William directly.

I have a wonderful Polish teacher who is helping me with my Polish grammar, Mrs Watrobska, to whom I would like to pay tribute. I spend the first 15 minutes of every lesson, every week, complaining about how difficult and unnecessarily complicated the Polish language is. She just listens to me and keeps faith, but I am finally getting to grips with the rather complicated Polish grammar.

One statistic that I want to share with the Minister is that 87,000 companies have now been set up in the United Kingdom by the Polish diaspora. I would argue that these people are, in the main, ideal immigrants. If we were to design a newcomer to our country, it would be a Pole. They are highly educated and highly skilled people. Many of them have finished university education, and they have an extraordinary work ethic. It makes me so proud when so many people come up to me, knowing that I am from Poland—whether it is farmers in Shropshire or people in the building trade, construction, architecture, design or fashion—to say, “We love these Polish workers. They are dependable; we can rely upon them.”

Of course that makes me very proud, and that is the sentiment. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Minister will agree that British people appreciate Poles and the contribution that these very hard-working people make to our country. Many of them have expressed to me concerns about their rights in a post-Brexit world and in the transition we are going through. This Government wanted to settle the issue of the reciprocal rights of EU citizens—both theirs and ours—at the very forefront, before negotiations started, understanding the importance of getting the issue resolved as a priority. Unfortunately, Mr Tusk and Angela Merkel prevented us from doing that.

The Government now have a very effective and positive plan to ensure that these people have guarantees to stay in the United Kingdom, and I am sure that the Minister will allude to those guarantees when he makes his speech. Let us not forget—this is the strongest message I want to give to our Polish friends—that just because we are pulling out of the European Union, it does not mean we will not continue to encourage highly-skilled Polish workers to come to our country. We will continue to celebrate their contribution to our economy and we will continue to issue work permits to highly-skilled Polish workers who wish to come here, work and make a contribution to our society.

I now turn to the newspaper article that my right hon. Friend the Minister highlighted to me, about a young Polish girl, Dagmara, of just 16. I am not in the habit of showing newspaper articles; I hope I am not infringing any official rules, Sir Roger. I shall put it down.

Road Infrastructure (Shropshire)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for raising those points. I would like the Minister to know that my constituents and I have followed just how doggedly and passionately my right hon. Friend has lobbied on the issue. Someone going from Shrewsbury to Oswestry, particularly during the summer months when many tourists are using the A5, would be shocked that this trans-European network route is so congested and is not dualled. Interestingly, someone trying to get on to the A5 from some Shropshire villages—I must get this point across—has to wait for a gap in the traffic. That is to get on to a trans-European highway, and that is causing some problems.

The A49 runs from Ludlow to Shrewsbury. In anticipation of this debate, I asked my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) whether he wanted to contribute. He is not able to be here, but he stated that his constituency is the sixth largest in the country and does not have a single metre of dualling anywhere. That lack of dualling is prevalent throughout Shropshire. The A49 has a huge amount of freight traffic coming from Herefordshire, Gloucestershire and parts of Wales and going all the way past Shrewsbury. That traffic winds through a lot of small Salopian villages, and its speed on narrow roads is a significant cause of concern for many local residents. I have spent many years campaigning on pedestrian crossings in some of the small rural villages that the A49 runs through. We have had some wonderful successes, particularly in the village of Dorrington, where we have secured an important pedestrian crossing, but nevertheless more needs to be done on that road.

I have mentioned the north-west relief road, the A5 and the A49, and those are the roads I would like the Minister to focus on.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

I simply want to raise some issues with Shropshire roads that my hon. Friend has probably only mentioned in passing. Shropshire is the gateway to mid-Wales, particularly in terms of transport, because alternative transport routes are absent. The cross-border scheme between Pant and Llanymynech on the A483 and the Middletown scheme on the A458 are crucial to the economy of Wales. I hope the Minister will allow me to join him when he comes for tea in Shrewsbury, so that I can explain how crucial those two developments are. The devolution complexities have made them far less likely to go ahead, and we need to liaise to ensure that they happen.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. He will of course receive an invite to join us in Shrewsbury and put his case when the Minister visits our town.

I would like to say something positive to the Minister. The M54, which comes into Shropshire, has been incredibly well resurfaced. Highways Agency staff get a lot of flak when road building improvements take a long time, but they have worked tirelessly night and day on the M54, and the surface and the standard of the M54 are probably the best that I have known over the past 15 years. I pay tribute and extend my thanks to them. I would, however, like to see a reclassification of the road, because the M54 stops at the Wellington junction and continues as the A52 to Shrewsbury. Those last few miles represent a very short distance, and we would like them to be reclassified because that would put Shrewsbury on the motorway network. There are some differences, but the A52 looks almost identical to the motorway. The business community is passionate about that reclassification and wants to convey that to the Minister. When a company, particularly a foreign investor, is looking to invest in a factory or a new plant, they will always look at a map of the motorway network in the United Kingdom. For us not to be on that network puts us at a disadvantage, so I would like the Minister to look at that matter.

We have received pinch point funding of nearly £4 million to improve the Emstrey island and the Preston Boats island. Those are two massive roundabouts where the A5 comes into Shrewsbury, and the work carried out has been superb. I thank the Government for the investment.

Tourism, as I have already indicated, is the No. 1 income generator for Shrewsbury and Shropshire. We need to ensure that people find it as easy as possible to come to our beautiful county on holiday and to see Shrewsbury and other places of interest throughout the county. Working together as Salopian MPs, we have secured a direct train service from London to Shrewsbury, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire is trying to get an extension to north Shropshire. That link to London has been critical. The volume of traffic coming on Virgin Trains to Shrewsbury as a result of our campaign is superb, and Virgin is pleased with the initial results. We want to replicate what we have done on rail connectivity and investment for Shropshire with our roads system, and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

National Grid (Montgomeryshire)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Wednesday 4th February 2015 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

It is always a great pleasure to serve under your fair chairmanship, Sir Roger. I am sure today will be exactly the same. I normally try to be a fairly relaxed and laid-back speaker in the House of Commons, and I like to be consensual in my general approach and debating style. I think that that is probably the most effective way for someone to get what they want, but since 2005 there has been one issue on which I have had great difficulty remaining calm whenever I have addressed it. It involves the industrialisation and destruction of the wondrous part of Wales where I have always lived and which is the subject of today’s debate. I want to speak about the mid-Wales connection project and the behaviour of National Grid in forcing it on the people I represent.

I have divided my speech into four sections. First, I will outline the general background to provide context. It will be necessary to make passing reference to a conjoined public inquiry into five wind farms that will have an impact on my constituency. A planning inspector’s report is being considered by the Department of Energy and Climate Change. To reassure the Minister, I respect her position and totally accept that she will not be able to make any comment on planning issues that could eventually land on her desk for decision. Today’s debate is about the mid-Wales connection project. It is a linked proposal being taken forward by National Grid, and I need to refer to the wind farms public inquiry only to create context.

Secondly, I will describe how National Grid has behaved in Montgomeryshire and north Shropshire, which has shocked me. I believe fellow MPs, the Minister and the public will also be shocked to learn about the tactics that this massive leviathan of an industrial complex and its agents have used to force their will on the local population. Thirdly, I will refer to what I consider to be the outrageous way in which National Grid has sought to influence the planning system using its power and money, which all seems to be entirely within the law. One issue I will raise, and to which I hope the Minister will respond, is whether that unparalleled power to influence planning applications, before and as they are being decided, should be reconsidered.

Fourthly, I will comment on the impact that the behaviour of National Grid, widely perceived by the public to be close to Government and thought by many to be a part of Government, has on the public’s faith and confidence in the democratic process. To finish, I will press the Minister to call on National Grid to suspend the mid-Wales connection project, at least until there are approved wind farms to be connected by it.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend and neighbour for the persistent and dogged way in which he has championed this issue to protect his beautiful constituency and his constituents’ views. National Grid could not find, if it tried, a location to generate electricity that was further from its existing network. As a result of the construction, huge swathes of Shropshire will be carpeted over with pylons to connect the electricity to the grid, and that is completely unacceptable.

Mid-Wales Connection Project

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Wednesday 12th February 2014 Westminster Hall

[Glyn Davies]

Indeed I do. I am glad that my hon. Friend intervened, in part because he is a Liberal Democrat, which shows that the feeling in mid-Wales is cross-party. If my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), another Liberal Member, were here, he would take exactly the same view. The people of mid-Wales as a whole, along with all their representatives, share the view that I intend to express today.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Glyn Davies]

It is the same in Shropshire as well.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for including Shropshire in the title that he gave to the debate. We had to fight tooth and nail to prevent the power lines coming through my constituency—they will now, as he knows, be going through north Shropshire—and for a long time, there was tremendous anger and fear among residents in the western part of my constituency: the proposed lines might have been coming through the area where their homes are and they feared the impact of that. I completely concur with him on the devastation and misery that the project has caused.

[Glyn Davies]

I thank my hon. Friend for those remarks. There is quite a large part of the country in which the feeling is comprehensively the same.

I have two overall objectives today. I want to lay out the full appalling reality of what the mid-Wales connection project means for mid-Wales and Shropshire. Many people do not understand what the project is. Clearly, there is the 400 kV line, about 50 km long, from north Shropshire to the middle of my constituency, travelling up the beautiful, narrow Vrynwy valley. But because that line is dedicated to onshore wind farms, it is more than reasonable to conclude—in fact, it is blatantly obvious to anyone—that that will mean that there will be about 500 extra turbines in mid-Wales on top of what we have already; there are about 240 wind turbines now. On top of that, there will be about 100 miles of 132 kV cable criss-crossing Montgomeryshire all over the place, from the wind farms themselves to the 20-acre hub station in the middle of the county.

By any description imaginable, that is the industrialisation of the central uplands of mid-Wales and the Cambrian mountains. To many of us, it is an absolute abomination; I cannot believe that anybody with any sanity or appreciation—I am sorry, I am starting to go off on my usual rant. I will draw myself back.

[Glyn Davies]

I could not agree more. That was the inspiration for my taking an interest in the issue, as I have since 2005. I will come back to why that date specifically is important.

My second objective today is to ask the Minister to agree publicly that enough is enough and that it is time for a moratorium on onshore wind farms. Much as I would like him to, I do not expect him to be able jump up and say, “Yes, I absolutely agree—as from today, there will be no more.” But it is important to put on the record that a huge and increasing number of people think that there is a strong case for that.

I want to put the case that I myself feel there is for a moratorium. I have never been convinced that onshore wind power was the right way to go to solve the UK’s energy demands, but I have always accepted that it had a part to play in the mix, which is what Government policy usually says. The mid-Wales connection project became an obvious likelihood in 2005 when the Assembly adopted a policy the consequences of which very few people understood. I am deeply grateful to Peter Ogden, the director of the Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales, who explained it to me in 2005. I became the president of that organisation three years before I came to this place because I so appreciated his understanding of what the impact of the policy would be. It was only then that I realised quite how bad the situation was.

It is not, then, that I have always been against onshore wind power in principle, but mid-Wales has 240 turbines already. Another 500 on top, with all the power lines as well, is simply beyond the scale of anything that is reasonable. I wanted to look at the Government’s policy, so I asked the Library about the issue. I know that the Government have an overall target of 15% of energy coming from renewable sources by 2020. I understand that there is no direct policy for targets within that on specific types of renewable energy, but the Government have expectations and aspirations, or whatever word we want to use, and the sort of total that is being looked at is 10 GW to 15 GW for wind power—that is the figure the Library told me in November. Now, 7 GW have already been installed, a further 6.63 GW are through the planning process and another 6.33 GW are already in planning. We have already reached anything that could reasonably be described as the Government’s expectation. There is no case for taking it any further.

If we look at Governments in Europe—Germany, Spain and the European Union itself—they are identifying that the cost of the subsidies is unsustainable. Indeed, those countries are all looking to cut back. We might find that we are committing ourselves in the United Kingdom to a massively expensive project in mid-Wales, but in 10 years time the policy behind it will have been abandoned, and we will have stranded assets. The cost of the project is huge: 10% of the capital investment will be added on to the cost of everybody’s electricity for the next 30 years. That is the scale of what happens with such a hugely expensive project. The only reason National Grid is going forward with it is because it has a statutory obligation to do so. It makes no sense at all.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one crazy aspect of the matter is how far the site is from the national grid, and that the Government must provide some advice and management about where the pylons will be sited so that the countryside is not plastered over to connect places to the national grid?

[Glyn Davies]

My hon. Friend will not be surprised to know that I agree with that point.

I want to spend a little time on the impact on democracy in central Wales and perhaps wider. Democracy is the principle on which the Government and the House of Commons operate, and people believe they can have some influence on policy through their elected Members of Parliament. That is particularly apt, because the Government are committed to the principle of localism and legislated for that in England, although there has been no such legislation in Wales. Localism is a key part of the Government’s policies.

I receive dozens of e-mails, and I have one here from someone who says that National Grid is now at their door with a legal right of access to conduct a walk-over service for the forthcoming pylon route corridor, and that they feel the rope tightening around their necks but powerless to fight against it. That is standard. A research paper from Aberystwyth university referred to the hopelessness and helplessness felt by the people of mid-Wales when they see what is happening. They do not want the pylons, but they believe that they can do nothing about it. They feel helpless.

I have spoken before about National Grid’s behaviour, which makes me cross. I received a letter yesterday from Llansantffraid community council about the way National Grid behaves. Not only that, an 86-year-old woman contacted me after going to her county councillor. She had been subject to process service, whereby heavy-duty bailiffs turned up at her door and terrified her. The chairman of the council told her straightforwardly to agree with them and to do what they say for the sake of her health. That has happened umpteen times throughout my constituency. My point is not about proper behaviour, but about the attitude to our right to influence what we can do.

West Coast Main Line

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Monday 17th September 2012 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski]

That is very strange, because I knew that the announcement was to be made in August and I am just a humble PPS. I raised this issue with my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister at Prime Minister’s questions, asking him to try to intervene to ensure that we have a direct rail service for Shrewsbury, and he clearly stated in his response on the Floor of the House in July that the result of the process would be announced in August and that he was sure that the train operators would have listened to my point about Shrewsbury. That is a matter of record during Prime Minister’s questions in July.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend rightly makes references to Shrewsbury. I want to associate with his comments my comment about how important a direct line to Shrewsbury is for the whole of mid-Wales. Shrewsbury is our station as well, and a direct line from Shrewsbury to Euston will make a huge difference to the ability of the people of mid-Wales to use the train. I thank him for allowing me to put that point into the debate.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I thank my hon. Friend and constituency neighbour and pay tribute to the intense work that he has done to campaign for his constituents across the border in Montgomeryshire, many of whom will, of course, rely on this service.

I had the pleasure of meeting Sir Richard Branson the other day to talk about this issue. I would like my hon. Friend the Minister to know that Virgin is very keen—I am just making observations—to talk to the Secretary of State. It claims that it has tried to engage in high-level discussions over a long period. It is very keen to meet the Secretary of State to highlight its concerns. Interestingly, the impression that I get is that the Department for Transport is not keen to meet Virgin at this time because of the judicial review. I would be grateful for an update from the Minister. What is the situation?

I think that the judicial review will cost a fortune for both sides, and I very much regret the fact that taxpayers’ money will be used in trying to defend that challenge through the courts. An awful lot of money will be made by lawyers at the expense of the companies and the Government. We need to engage with the operators on the procurement process for the future. I want us to avoid these problems in the future. I want all train operators to agree on some form of bidding or procurement process that has buy-in, so that we can try to avoid these disputes. It is highly regrettable, when constituents are looking forward to better train services, that we have somehow degenerated into this legal quagmire, which could take a great deal of time and cost a great deal of money to resolve.

We are very pleased that there will be a direct service for Shrewsbury from FirstGroup. Apparently, Virgin Trains is now claiming that its bid also included provision of a direct rail service for Shrewsbury. However, I reiterate to the Minister that one of the biggest problems that we have is the lack of parking capacity at Shrewsbury station. I intend to meet Network Rail shortly to discuss that and will be trying to secure a meeting with him on that point as well.

UK Relations: Libya

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 1st November 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

Thank you for calling me to speak in the debate, Mr Gray. Some time ago, the late Robin Cook—a man of considerable intellect and experience—spoke about an ethical foreign policy. This new drive, which would shape Britain’s engagement with countries around the world, would be based on our ability to engage in a more ethical way in the modern era, thus protecting our image and branding throughout the international community. Was that a naive objective? As I say, it was formulated and proposed by somebody with considerable experience, and it was certainly a commendable aspiration.

However, following the disastrous engagement in Iraq, and the illegal war that the Labour party pursued there, Mr Blair had a problem with his party and the country. He therefore sought out somebody who would enable him to show the world that although he was making war by force, he could also make peace through international diplomacy. Who better to choose than an isolated figure, ridiculed in the Arab League, with no friends? Mr Blair chose Colonel Gaddafi, who was so bereft of friends that he could be enticed into the little deal—the little charade or rapprochement—that Mr Blair pursued with him.

We were told at the time that as a quid pro quo for this rapprochement, the weapons of mass destruction that Colonel Gaddafi had amassed would be handed over and sent for evaluation and, ultimately, dismantling somewhere in North Carolina in the United States of America. I do not know about you, Mr Gray, but I do not know what those weapons of mass destruction consisted of, how many there were, or what their quality and calibre was. For all I know, Gaddafi may have had just a pea-shooter; his total inability to defend himself in the recent war certainly shows a rather chaotic approach to military strategy.

I did not want rapprochement with Gaddafi, purely because I knew from many friends in Libya, and from having visited the country, of the appalling human rights abuses that this tyrant perpetrated against his people over decades. I hope Members will agree that that does not fit in with the ethical foreign policy espoused with such fanfare by the previous Labour Government.

I have a gripe with not just the Labour Government, but the Scottish National party Government in Scotland. When they were about to release the convicted bomber al-Megrahi, I pleaded with Alex Salmond and the Scottish Justice Secretary not to do so. I also pleaded with the former Labour Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), on the Floor of the House to intervene with the Scottish Government to prevent the bomber being released. Of course, he told me, “This is nothing to do with us. This is a purely Scottish matter.” Despite the fact that releasing al-Megrahi could have had huge ramifications for the United Kingdom’s foreign policy, the previous Labour Government said, “It’s nothing to do with us.” I am absolutely convinced that our current Prime Minister would not have acted in such a way.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend regret that the Scottish Government have not apologised for what happened, given that although their action was taken on the assumption that the man had less than six months to live, he is, as far as I know, still alive?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

Yes, I totally concur with my hon. Friend. Indeed, I think that we were told that he had less than three months, not six months, to live, but he is still alive somewhere in Tripoli, two years on.

So passionately did I feel about the release of al-Megrahi that I even travelled to Qatar for an international conference. In front of a totally Arab audience in debates in Doha, I and others won the debate on a motion saying that the house deplored the release of the Lockerbie bomber. A young girl from the United Arab Emirates told me, “On the one hand, you expect us to join you in your war against international terrorism, but on the other hand, you are releasing a convicted bomber who was involved in the worst terrorist atrocity committed on UK soil since the second world war.” That was a very salient, pertinent point, and it certainly stuck in my mind.

Hospital Services (Shropshire)

Debate between Glyn Davies and Daniel Kawczynski

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Westminster Hall

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

This important debate is on the reconfiguration of hospital services in Shropshire, and in almost six years as Member of Parliament for Shrewsbury, I have never received so many letters, e-mails and telephone calls from concerned constituents over a single issue. Many of those calls have been emotional, and even though the consultation process is still ongoing, I feel it is my duty to use the platform that I have in the House of Commons to highlight a few of the concerns to the Minister.

Part of the reconfiguration proposals would involve maternity and paediatric services moving from Shrewsbury to Telford. I want the Minister to imagine the geography of Shropshire and mid-Wales. The Royal Shrewsbury hospital covers not just the whole of Shropshire, but the whole of mid-Wales—a vast expanse just across the border. I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) is present in the debate today.

Picture the wheel of a bicycle, and at the centre, the spokes coming into the middle. That is where Shrewsbury is in the area. Now imagine moving paediatric and maternity services right to the edge of the wheel. How would that wheel function? Telford is at the edge of the area, on the extreme eastern border close to Staffordshire. What is the sense in moving services so far away from the rest of central Shropshire and mid-Wales?

I am so passionate about this issue that I raised it during Prime Minister’s Question Time last week. The Prime Minister referred to the importance of public engagement and consultation, which he said was a fundamental aspect of any reconfiguration proposals. Therefore, I have asked the chief executive and the primary care trust for a public meeting to be held in Shrewsbury on 11 February at the football stadium in our town. I believe that hundreds and hundreds of people will attend. I intend to make a transcript of that meeting and of all questions put to the PCT and the chief executive, and I will be sending that transcript to the Minister.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

My hon. Friend knows that I also have a huge interest in this issue as I represent Montgomeryshire over the border. Does he agree that the meetings that will be held in Montgomeryshire on 18, 23 and 24 February are of equal importance, and that it is crucial for the health board and PCTs to take notice of them? We also depend on the services in Shropshire.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I agree with my hon. Friend. We are cognisant of the fact that his constituents, the citizens of mid-Wales, do not have facilities across the border and are dependent on the Royal Shrewsbury hospital. The people of Wales must be listened to equally, in the same way as the people of Shropshire.

I have slight concerns about the lack of sufficient engagement by the authorities with local people. I pay tribute to the chief executive and his colleagues. There have been public meetings, and the chief executive has met some of my constituents who have serious questions to ask on a one-to-one basis. Nevertheless, many letters and e-mails have not been answered in a timely way or to the degree that people wished for. Some people who have written in are retired senior consultants and experts in the field. I hope that all their questions will be answered.

I am also concerned about the dates of the public consultation. In began on 9 December and will finish on 14 March. I find 9 December a rather strange time to start a public consultation. We all know how stressful Christmas is at the best of times, and we would have been gearing up to buy the Christmas tree and presents and get our homes ready for festivities. A lot of people in Shropshire will not have been thinking about the consultation as intently and with as much time and focus as they might have done, because they were distracted by the coming festivities. If we are to have a public consultation, it must be held at the right time of the year and there must be sufficient time for people to make their views heard.

--- Later in debate ---

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I concur with my hon. Friend and with the point that he makes in his usual eloquent way. I have been told by the chief executive, and others, that if we do not go for the proposals, we will potentially put our foundation trust status at risk. If we put that at risk, there is the possibility of losing services—and the management of those services—out of the county. Again, I speak without medical experience, but I do not understand how we could enter into a consultation process but be told that if we do not go for the proposals, services will be lost from Shropshire.

I cannot envisage a time when we have no maternity or paediatric services in the whole of Shropshire. That is unthinkable to me, so I do not understand the logic of the trust. It is saying, “Take it or leave it, but if you leave it, that’s it. We won’t get our foundation trust status and you’ll lose your services.” That position needs to be clarified because many people see it as a gun being pointed at their heads and are therefore frightened to challenge the proposals.

[Glyn Davies]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his tolerance in allowing me to make a second intervention. The point that he has just raised is key. Everyone, including, I am sure, my hon. Friend, recognises that there must be a reconfiguration of services. The points that have been made are crucial. However, that does not necessarily mean that the reconfiguration of services that is before us has to be the case. The argument is not about whether there should be a reconfiguration of services, but about how that should take place. In the interests of the people of Montgomeryshire, I think that services are best placed not where it is convenient for a balance in Shropshire, but where they are accessible to the people who will use them.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I completely concur with my hon. Friend on that point.

I shall briefly relate a couple of specific cases. I have been inundated with hundreds of letters on this issue. My own daughter was born at the Royal Shrewsbury hospital, and it was the proudest day of my life when my daughter was born within the community that I represent. She is not just a Salopian; she is a Shrewsbury girl and she will have that with her for the rest of her life. For us in Shrewsbury, being a Salopian is important, but being a Shrewsbury girl? Now that is something special. I feel so passionately about that.

One constituent’s family is directly affected by the proposals, as her three-year-old son needs 24-hour open access to the children’s ward at the Royal Shrewsbury hospital because he suffers from severe haemophilia. He needs treatment to be administered every other day and any additional treatment on demand if he should cut himself. I was told that it was vital for my constituent’s son to be admitted immediately to the children’s ward via A and E and not to be sent down the motorway to the Princess Royal hospital. How can that mother of a son with haemophilia empower herself to make her views known if the overview and scrutiny committee is not minded to refer this issue to the Minister?

The issue has also been raised with me by the father of a child who was previously a cancer patient treated at the Royal Shrewsbury hospital. He talks about the appeal in 2003 for a designated children’s cancer unit at the Shrewsbury hospital. It raised £500,000 and the unit was completed in 2005. My constituent told me that

“many people across Shropshire and Mid Wales donated or gave up many hours to fundraise, only to now find that the purpose built unit will…stand unused as Children’s services are being moved to Telford with no provision for this desperately needed unit which provides an essential service to families facing unimaginable turmoil whose children are being treated for cancer.”

I have been told of the severe disruption and anguish that will result from the need for seriously ill patients to travel from Shrewsbury if it is left with no consultant-led surgery, which may result in a catastrophic delay in emergency treatment.

I also want to mention Joshua, a young boy in my constituency who has chronic lung disease. His mother, Hayley Corfield, wrote to me about him. He has had bronchial problems since birth and is now 14 and constantly in and out of hospital. I have been given the most extraordinary list, which I will send to the Minister, of the medications that this poor young boy is on. He lives in Shrewsbury. His mother tells me that there have been many near misses in the last few years in terms of saving his life—resuscitating him. She is desperately worried about the impact on her son and the chances of his survival if, suffering from this chronic disease, he has to travel for an extra 20 minutes to Telford. I am therefore raising these issues with the Minister today.

The Minister kindly wrote to me. In his letter, he notes that I am planning to call a public meeting and encourages me

“to ensure views from that meeting are fed back to the local NHS via the consultation mechanism, so local concerns are fully taken into account.”

The next part is the bit that I am excited and happy about and grateful to him for—I know that he is one of the best Ministers we have. He says:

“The Department will be watching the outcomes from the consultation exercise with interest.”

I know that he cannot get involved at this stage, but I am extremely grateful that he has said that he will be watching with interest the outcome of that consultation process.

I have today written to all the general practitioners who practise in Shrewsbury and Atcham. Again, the Prime Minister stated at Prime Minister’s questions, and it was reconfirmed to me by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health, that the views of local general practitioners would have to be taken into account before any reconfiguration process could occur. I wanted an independent assessment of their views, rather than it being handed to me by the PCT or anyone else. I have therefore written today to all the general practitioners in my constituency and I urge my hon. Friends to do likewise if they so wish. I will compile the results of the views of local general practitioners in Shrewsbury and will share their views anonymously. I will not refer to specific people, but I will share their views with the Minister.

I am extremely grateful for the 15 minutes that I have had and for the constructive way in which we have debated this issue. It is extremely emotive. I do not want to get into a Shrewsbury-Telford pillow fight. We have had enough of that over the years. I want to work constructively with my colleagues and with the trust to come up with the best possible solution for our beautiful county.