Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Gerald Howarth and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

As with so many things, the hon. Gentleman is half right. This has been noted in Scotland. A lot of people are observing this and seeing this Parliament becoming, in effect, an English Parliament. They are seeing the voices of their Members of Parliament, so recently elected, diminished in this House. They will not be able to speak or vote in particular circumstances.

Throughout the debate on EVEL, the Leader of the House gave the impression that these votes would be subject to a double majority—that the whole House would express its will and then there would be a vote for English Members, which would effectively be their veto—but that has not happened. Instead, there has been a banishment. That is the brutal reality of EVEL. This is what happens when we start mucking about with the Standing Orders and our membership arrangements. We are left with some Members who can do anything—participate and vote on any issue—and others who cannot. It is totally unsatisfactory.

We have wasted God knows how much time discussing these issues today. It has made such a mess of parliamentary proceedings and added extra elements to the functions of an already hard-working House when considering Bills. It is a total mess.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

The hon. Gentleman has already told the House that the Scottish nationalist party—[Hon. Members: “National!”]—that the Scottish National party has no interest in this measure, which in no way applies to Scotland, and therefore will not vote on it. What is his problem? SNP Members have every right to speak, and we have redressed an injustice. For years, Conservative Members felt like second-class citizens, unable to vote on health and education matters in Scotland, while they have been able to vote on matters solely to do with England. Would the SNP have voted on the measure to bring hunting regulations in England and Wales into line with those in Scotland?

[Pete Wishart]

I say this in all candour to the hon. Gentleman, whom I very much respect: we hear much from our English colleagues about their deeply held views on EVEL. He is a fine exponent of this perceived injustice: “How dare these Scots oppress English Members”—they only make up about 85% of the House!—“by coming down here and stealing our votes and having a say in our legislation?” With this Conservative majority, 88%, I think, of the House is English-only, yet we are the reason they cannot get their way. It is a ridiculous argument.

I do not want to take up any more time—[Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] I can if Members would like—but we will return to these issues in the future. This is not concluded. I have heard several English Members say they are doing this to save the Union. I add a word of caution to my friends representing English constituencies: in establishing this Committee and pursuing the issue in this way, they are driving Scotland out of the door. That is how it is seen in Scotland. During the referendum campaign, as you will remember Madam Deputy Speaker, we were told: “Stay with us, Scotland. Scotland, we love you.” But the minute we park our backsides on these green Benches, we are diminished in status and not allowed a say in all matters.

Devolution and the Union

Debate between Gerald Howarth and Pete Wishart

Thursday 20th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point. I think that one of the factors that influenced the campaign in the end was my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister speaking directly to the Scottish people about his passion for retaining the Union and his belief in the importance of Scotland.

Unlike my namesake, the right hon. Member for Knowsley (Mr Howarth), I do not sense that there is any enormous appetite in England for a change in our constitutional arrangements. In particular, I do not believe there is the appetite mentioned by the Local Government Association for devolution of further powers to the English regions. Aldershot certainly does not have that appetite, but it may exist in Knowsley.

[Pete Wishart]

Is it the view of Tory Back Benchers, therefore, that the vow is not even worth the price of the paper it was written on?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

That is a very stupid question. The constitutional point is that the leaders of the three parties made a commitment, but they are not in a position to deliver upon that commitment, because it is both Houses of Parliament that make the laws. We do not live in a state where it is the divine right of kings to rule. It is subject to the will of Parliament, and Parliament therefore has to decide on these matters.

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

No, the question is so silly that it is not worth responding to again.

I do not believe there is any real appetite for change in England. My principal concern—I am sure it is shared right across the House, apart from by SNP Members—is the maintenance of the Union. I am a Conservative and Unionist. I believe profoundly in the Union. I went to Scotland—my wife went on holiday in the south of France, but I could not be out of the country when the future of my kingdom was at stake. I am a former Defence Minister and I believe that the repercussions for defence, had Scotland gone its own way, would have been catastrophic for England. England would have been diminished. I believe that we are enhanced as a nation by having Scotland as part of this great kingdom.

--- Later in debate ---

[Pete Wishart]

Can the right hon. Gentleman clear this up once and for all? The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) said that the vow is not worth the paper it was written on because it was not agreed by Parliament. What is the right hon. Gentleman’s message to his Back Benchers? Is it that the vow is something that is promised and guaranteed or that, as the hon. Member for Aldershot says, it is not worth the paper it is written on?

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

rose—

Devolution (Scotland Referendum)

Debate between Gerald Howarth and Pete Wishart

Tuesday 14th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Lady raises an important point. When we talk about England-only legislation, we are talking about legislation that does not impact on Scotland. Our group of MPs discusses that issue every week. I could explain to her our whip on legislation that significantly impacts on Scotland. For example, we voted on tuition fees—[Interruption.] I am answering the hon. Lady’s question. We voted on tuition fees because that vote had a massive impact on Scottish higher education. It was right that we did that. However, there are other issues that should not concern us one ounce.

This House made one of the most important and solemn vows that has ever been made by a Member of Parliament in modern political history. It was signed by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who is in danger of saying something that is not entirely in concert with the facts. He suggested that the vow was made by Parliament. It was not made by Parliament.

[Pete Wishart]

This is what it is all about. I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. The Scottish people thought that they had secured a solemn vow, a promise, a guarantee of more extensive powers. That is what they thought they had secured. To hear my Conservative friends, some of whom I respect dearly, confirm that they were not consulted and would have difficulty getting the proposal through the House, tells me everything. The Scottish people were influenced by the vow. There is some very good evidence that the vow might just have swung it. It was the key thing. It was presented on the eve of the referendum—the solemn vow, promise, guarantee of more powers—and already we are hearing the backtrack. It is in full view.

The Prime Minister should have been here for this debate, and I will tell the House why: he was the key signatory to that vow. He should have been here to speak to the Scottish people, to look them in the eye and say, “The vow—the promise and guarantee—will be delivered in full, without condition, with absolutely no caveat and without consideration of any other external issue.” But he is not here. It is a massive dereliction of duty.

Before I move on from English votes for English laws, let me introduce the House to its little brother, SCVL—Scottish votes for Scottish laws. It has come to my attention that the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, the only Conservative Member of Parliament with a Scottish constituency, votes on England-only legislation. I do not know whether the House knew that, but he does. Perhaps the Whip should have a quiet word so that there is no possibility that a charge of hypocrisy can be extended to the Conservative party. Tomorrow, five English Members are down to ask a question to the Secretary of State for Scotland. Others will be looking to catch the Speaker’s eye. Come on, Tory friends! If it is good enough for English Members of Parliament for Scottish Members to absent themselves from English-only business, let us ensure that Scottish Members of Parliament have exclusive rights to their legislation. There will also be a package for more devolution. Will our Tory friends be voting on that? What is good for EVEL—English votes for English laws—is equally good for SCVL. I hope Conservative Members of Parliament remember that.

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and the Leader of the House for replying so positively to my request for a full day’s debate. It is unfortunate that it has not become a debate about the referendum and other things. It was an absolute and utter disgrace that we were left with one half-hour Adjournment debate on a Thursday afternoon in the hands of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown). We saw in his behaviour today his lack of generosity in debate, so I am glad that we are having this debate.

The right hon. Gentleman almost casts a surreal shadow and presence on the debate. Such is the ridiculousness of the situation that he feels the need to secure a petition signed by 100,000 people to guarantee more powers to be given by a Government on whose behalf he was speaking. How absurd is that? He came close today to saying that he had been duped—I was hoping to push him into saying that he felt duped by the Conservative Government, but we could have told him that that would happen.

Just because we lost the referendum narrowly does not mean that I have stopped believing in independence. Just because we did not secure the referendum does not mean that I have stopped believing that the people best placed to run our fantastic country are the people who live and work there. We are now engaged in the fight for more powers; it is to that we will apply ourselves. We will make sure that we get the maximum devolution that the Scottish people now want.