Social Fund Funeral Payments

Debate between Gavin Robinson and David Simpson

Wednesday 14th September 2016 Westminster Hall

[Gavin Robinson]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. When the Government talk about choices, they also express a desire for the ideal situation that people make provision for their own end of life. Ideally, that is what we should do. Ideally, it should come from our estate and from our savings, but those who are most in need are recipients of benefits from this society because we recognise that they cannot pay for themselves.

I ask this question of the Minister—I do not do so glibly, but it starkly illustrates the difficulty we have. Take JSA as one example. A recipient of JSA gets £73.10 per week. How much of that £73.10 do Government believe should be set aside for funeral provision? I do not wish to be facetious: that is the serious concern of many people who struggle by themselves and do not get enough from Government. We are saying, “Really, you should be saving for after life as well.”

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on obtaining this debate. Does he agree that there is a degree of humility when it comes to folk who cannot afford to pay for a funeral? They also need more help when it comes to the form filling and the process itself.

[Gavin Robinson]

I agree with my hon. Friend, and I will come on to some of those issues later in my speech, as well as recognising the particular difficulties we have in Northern Ireland when it comes to those choices. The Select Committee did a good bit of work on the application process and the SF200 form, which I will refer to later as well.

The Minister will know that the social fund payment is broken into two categories: what is considered to be a non-discretionary award and what is considered to be a discretionary spend. The Committee has canvassed this issue. The Members I mentioned previously—the hon. Member for South Shields and others—have recognised that the £700 award, which was formulated at a time when it met discretionary spend needs, was frozen in 2003. The Bank of England’s calculator suggests that that £700 is now worth £495.68, yet the costs have not frozen; they have risen exponentially. That figure was set at a time when Government said they would meet the costs, but I am afraid this policy is now compounding the debt and the pressure on families who look to Government for support. That is 13 years of diminished spend, and the cost of discretionary items has risen exponentially, at more than three times the rate of inflation year on year since 2003.

Let us consider what is discretionary. I do not find it comfortable that the provision of a representative of the clergy or an officiant at a ceremony is a discretionary spend. I know that people have different views on faith, but for me it is not a choice. I recognise that there are many in our country who do not live a faithful life but who, when they approach the end, build that relationship for what is to come. I do not believe that that spend—whether it is a faith-based clergyman or someone who will simply officiate at an ordinary funeral—should be discretionary, nor do I believe that the hiring of a place of worship should be. We cannot expect it to be a discretionary cost for people at a time of grief and sorrow to sort out a place aside from their home to welcome family and friends who want to pay their respects to their loved one.

Discretionary cost is also associated with a cremated remains plot or storage space. Cremation is a non-discretionary spend, so its cost is covered; burial is also a non-discretionary spend and interment is covered. Burials cost substantially more than cremations and the Government will cover the cost of interment of a body in a burial, yet providing a plot for ashes or a safe place for them to be kept is non-discretionary. Given that there is a huge saving for the Government in the discretionary element of cremation, the provision of a cremated remains plot or storage space should be moved from non-discretionary to discretionary.

Embalming is a discretionary spend. The Government say a family choose whether a body will be embalmed. It is not required scientifically, but is most important, should a family choose to have an open coffin or to spend time with their deceased loved one. As part of that categorisation of non-discretionary spend, the Government are making the choice more difficult for those in receipt of benefits or who can ill afford it. They are saying, “We will pay £700”—which in no way represents the cost of the non-discretionary items added together; indeed, it has been frozen since 2003 and is now worth less than £500—“but you choose: are you going to use it to have an officiant at a ceremony, to have a place to put the ashes of your loved one, to embalm the body before disposal or to mark their final resting place with a memorial?” It is appropriate to spell out these aspects of the end of life sincerely and earnestly, to illustrate some of the choices that the policy is asking people without sufficient means to make.

In an evidence session during the Select Committee’s inquiry, an official from the Department for Work and Pensions said that, ideally, eligible claimants should know what their entitlement is before a funeral. It is sensible and plausible that people do not go to a funeral director and ask for these discretionary items, amassing a substantial cost that they can ill afford. That is sensible and, when I consider the delay in having a funeral in England and Wales, it is also practical. People may wait two, three or four weeks for a funeral. That is not so in Northern Ireland, where traditionally people are buried two or three days after death. So at a time of sorrow and grief, we not only ask people to come to terms with loss and their inability to provide for their loved one and to make arrangements, contact family and friends, but to contact DWP’s advice line to see whether support is available. Three weeks sounds practical, but three days is less so, yet the constraints are the same across the country. Colleagues from other parts of the country may wish to add their experience, but in Northern Ireland the short time frame does not allow people to do what the DWP official described as ideal.

All this—the question of discretionary or non-discretionary and the cap in 2003—has led to a crisis of funeral poverty in this country. The Local Government Association has highlighted its concern. In 2009-10, there were 2,200 public health funerals, at a cost of £1.5 million to local authorities. In 2010-11, there were 2,900, at a cost of £2.1 million. The BBC survey of all local authorities in this country had a response rate of three quarters. It is estimated that there will be 3,500 public health funerals this year.

We know what they are. Paupers’ funerals have been described as funerals for which there is simply no one to pay, no family support and no ability to give someone a send-off from a loved one, so the state steps in. The number of such funerals has risen exponentially to 3,500 this year. That has led the National Association of Funeral Directors to ask why, if funeral poverty is rising, social fund funeral payments have decreased. The social fund payments of £40 million in 2016 represent a 10.9% decrease from £44 million in the previous year. The number of public health funerals is rising and funeral poverty is rising, yet Government support is falling. With a fall of £4 million between last year and this year, we are returning to 1993 in real terms, when the Government spent £90 million on social fund funeral payments.

Last year, the social fund proudly stated that it had reduced outstanding debt and returned more than £150 million to the Treasury. The number of public health funerals is rising, spend is decreasing and the cost to local authorities and funeral poverty are rising; rather than proudly stating that they are handing £150 million back to the Treasury, the Government have the choice to use the money more appropriately and to provide the support that is needed.

To be fair, the Government gave a timely response to the Select Committee’s report. The Minister has had the chance to consider some of her narrow brief—DWP is not a narrow Department and has many considerations—and today gives her the opportunity to add some meat to the skeletal response and skeletal commitments that were offered.

The Government have talked about dialogue between funeral directors, interested third parties and stakeholders. I will be interested to hear what the Minister says to update the discussions that have been taking place since 2015. We should have an appropriate response from the Government today on how those discussions are progressing without just placing the onus on funeral directors.

There was much in the Select Committee’s report about funeral directors doing this and that. The Government could define what a simple funeral is. There are choices, as I have outlined, about what is discretionary and what is non-discretionary. I will be interested to hear not just what stakeholders, funeral directors and their association are prepared to do, but what the Government are prepared to do.

Victims of Libyan-sponsored IRA Terrorism: Compensation

Debate between Gavin Robinson and David Simpson

Tuesday 13th September 2016 Westminster Hall

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

It is a great privilege to have the opportunity to participate in this debate and to follow what was not only a strong contribution but a very meaningful one. Those of us from Northern Ireland who listened to the hon. Member for South Suffolk (James Cartlidge) appreciate the support that this campaign is gaining across each major party and each major part of this country. Every victim, be they from Northern Ireland or the rest of the United Kingdom, appreciates the support and attendance of hon. Members from parties throughout this House today, as well as the support of those such as Andrew Mackinlay who have served this campaign and continue to serve it so well.

This is about fairness, about transparency and about justice. It is easy to read in the Order Paper that this is a debate about compensation for victims of IRA terrorism and believe it is a Northern Ireland issue only. Today, all hon. Members who have attended are putting an end to that view.

[David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)]

I am sure my hon. Friend agrees that the word “justice” has become almost an insult to IRA victims, because many of them will never see justice. This is one way in which they can be compensated for the loss of loved ones, but Libya has dragged it out for far too long.

[Gavin Robinson]

I agree entirely with my hon. Friend.

I recognise that the problem is not solely in Northern Ireland. The hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth) referred to the 1972 bombing in Manchester and there were others in Brighton, Warrington, Harrods, Hyde Park, Chelsea barracks and Canary Wharf, and many more atrocities at the hands of the IRA, supported by Colonel Gaddafi and the Libyan regime.

Since I was elected last May, I have spent a lot of time engaging with the Minister through the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, in bilateral meetings and in supporting the private Member’s Bill in the other place. From a rocky start in those discussions, the Minister is showing a personal desire, willingness and commitment to see this through. There is a real opportunity to deliver for the victims in this country.

Aid has been mentioned. I have said privately and publicly that it is unconscionable for me as a representative in this country to give aid, to help with reconstruction, to try to build lives and to provide a positive future for people’s lives in Libya, as we should, and not to recognise that people are languishing in this country, looking for support from their Government—a Government who are here to serve, a Government who are here to protect and a Government who are here to defend the interests of people of this country. I hope that we support the Libyan people as best we can and encourage that, but doing so provides a unique opportunity to make sure Libya recognises that there are still many brave people in this country, either sitting behind me today or watching at home, who need the support of a caring and compassionate Government.

We cannot continue to talk about these issues in the abstract. They are not only a vagary of our past; they are here with us today. Not so long ago—within the last six months—the victims of the Hyde Park bombing applied to this country’s Legal Aid Agency for support in their quest for a civil claim against the perpetrators of that bombing. They were turned down because they did not meet the criteria.

One reason why they did not meet the criteria was a fear that pursuing the quest of civil justice in British courts for British victims would be a threat to the peace process of Northern Ireland. What nonsense. I know the Minister will be able to respond to that point, but it is an indication of how victims in this country look to our Government for an appropriate response. There are many perpetrators of violence against the state who run to the courts, who receive support and who continue to claim they need further compensation, transparency or justice from the state—perpetrators of violence against the state and our citizens. If we can stand up for them—it sticks in our craw—it is incumbent on us to stand up for the victims of Libyan-sponsored IRA violence.

I want to focus on one case in my constituency. In March this year, a constituent, Adrian Ismay, was blown up by a bomb planted by the New IRA. It contained Semtex which, as there have been no recent purchases, is presumed to be of the same origin and extraction as that sourced from the Czech Republic through Libya to the IRA and disseminated through its splinter organisations. This year, a citizen of this country—a serving prison officer who believed in his community and served not only as a prison officer but in the search and rescue service—was blown up by Semtex with origins in Libya.

The chief suspect is walking the streets of Belfast on bail. Having breached his bail on three occasions and been returned to court, he is still walking the streets today. At the weekend, I received information that Police Service of Northern Ireland chiefs sent an email to their officers telling them not to conduct bail checks because they were generating too many complaints from his solicitor and offending his sensitivities—offending the sensitivities of a man who is alleged to be the murderer of my constituent in March. The police are concerned about his sensitivities.

I am conscious of time, Ms Ryan, but this debate gives the Minister a further opportunity to respond, whether to the victims of Hyde Park, to the victim Adrian Ismay and his family, or to the victims behind me and the countless victims throughout this country who have looked to the Government for an appropriate response. Today, Minister, is the time to give it.

Business Transactions: Cash Retentions

Debate between Gavin Robinson and David Simpson

Wednesday 27th January 2016 Westminster Hall

[David Simpson]

That is an excellent point, and we have been lobbied on that over the past days and weeks. That case could have a devastating impact on the construction industry in Northern Ireland, so it will be fought tooth and nail. We hope that the Government will support people in that.

It is not enough for the Government to talk about removing retentions by 2025; we need to see some form of legislation to stop retentions. We cannot sit back and ignore a potential loss of £360 million over the next nine years, as calculated by the loss of £40 million in 2015, while the Government work towards elimination but have no plans to legislate. That is grossly unfair and frankly hugely debilitating to the construction sector and the UK economy.

There has been huge interest in the debate. I am sure that many Members, like me, have been briefed by the Specialist Engineering Contractors Group, which has been the voice for SMEs on this poor payment practice. Like many here today, I recognise that cash retentions work in theory. They were originally established as a protection against any defects that might have been left when a job was finished or left unfinished. These days, since all contractors have to go through a lengthy pre-qualification process to be able to take on any job, there should no longer be any need for retentions to be withheld. However—this is quite embarrassing for the UK—we still have not legislated to have retention moneys placed in safe keeping. France, Germany, America and Australia are already leading the way and have put in place effective processes to secure the money, should the larger contractors go into insolvency or adopt poor payment practices when releasing the finance to their subcontractors.

[Gavin Robinson (Belfast East) (DUP)]

My hon. Friend is being very generous with his time. Does he believe that there is a parallel with the legal industry, where a solicitor can exercise a lien over something of importance until the contract is concluded, whether that is deeds, money or cash? That is regulated by the Law Society. Lessons could be learned from the regularised and legislated procedure of a solicitor’s lien.

[David Simpson]

That question could only come from a barrister, but my hon. Friend is right. There is a role for that. As MPs, we all have companies that come to our offices or that we go and visit. Time and again, retentions are the issue that is raised, and some companies and subcontractors are begging us to try to resolve it.

I listened carefully to what the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown) said, and there is an option to look at that, but as the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) said, we already have a suitable model in place under the Housing Act 2004 with the tenancy deposit schemes. Deposits paid in connection with shorthold tenancies must be placed in a Government-authorised deposit scheme. Similarly, retention moneys could be placed in a secure deposit account, as already happens in many other countries. That option is there, so perhaps the Government could look at that to try to ease the burden.

The Government and the Minister know that the construction industry in particular has gone through a devastating time. That is perhaps not so much the case in London and the big cities on the mainland—I think there was something like 12% or 13% growth last year in the City of London alone—but the regions of the United Kingdom have found it difficult to try to get the construction industry moving again. Money is being held back and banks will not take retentions as guarantees. The industry is struggling with cash flow.

I will finish now because I am excited to hear what the Minister is going to say to us, but I must ask the Government why they would object to developing a model for the funds that would allow our SMEs, which I and other Members often champion in our constituencies, to be the backbone of our growing economy. We need protection against poor payment practices and the misuse of SME funds, because it is their money.