Higher Education Policy

Gareth Thomas Excerpts

Wednesday 27th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Willetts]

We have a set of proposals that ensures that increasing resources will go to our universities, so, absolutely, I see no reason why quality should suffer. Indeed, I believe that as we liberalise the system in the way that the Secretary of State and I wish to, we will see improvements in the quality of the student experience. I do not see any need for a reduction in student numbers; on the figures that we have in front of us, I do not believe that that will be necessary.

I want to deal with another point made by Labour Members. There is so much confusion and misapprehension on their part that there is a large amount to sweep away.

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Willetts]

I wanted to move on to the improvements that we have made to the Browne plan, but of course I give way to the shadow Minister.

[Mr Thomas]

Will the right hon. Gentleman distance himself from the Secretary of State’s comments at the Higher Education Funding Council for England conference when he threatened universities with either more cuts to the teaching grant or further cuts to student numbers?

[Mr Willetts]

We will obviously have to keep a very close eye on the situation. When one looks behind the headline figure of the £9,000 fee, there are so many waivers and special arrangements that the average fee will be significantly lower than that. Given the evidence that has so far come through, we do not recognise the so-called figures for fiscal black holes that are being perpetrated by Labour Members. I suggest that they calm down and wait until the autumn of 2012 when we see what students are actually paying in fees when they arrive at their universities.

[Mr Thomas]

The right hon. Gentleman was asked a very straight question—does he, or does he not, agree with his Secretary of State, who clearly threatened universities at the HEFCE conference with either further cuts in teaching grant or further cuts in student numbers? Does he agree with him—yes or no?

[Mr Willetts]

I am always in agreement with the Secretary of State. The position that he was describing related to options that would be necessary if the financial position was very different from the one that we estimated last autumn. On the basis of the evidence that we have, we do not believe that that will be the case.

--- Later in debate ---

[Simon Hughes]

That was a lot of questions and I shall try to answer them briefly. Of course I share a concern about perception, which is why I took on this job. By the time I have carried it out and given my final report to the Prime Minister and Deputy Prime Minister at the end of June, I hope—I have been working with Ministers to make sure this happens—that we will have the right messages coming out about the real cost in the future in a way that encourages people to go to university rather than discourages them.

On the hon. Gentleman’s second issue, the Government have to take responsibility for the tough spending decisions, as they have done. There were other choices they could have made, but if the choice was reducing the money going from the state to universities or reducing the money going to fund apprenticeships for people who do not go to university, I, on behalf of my constituents and his, believe that it may well be better to fund those who go to further education college and have apprenticeships, rather than spend the money on people who will be earning £71,000 a year.

[Mr Thomas]

rose—

[Simon Hughes]

If the shadow Minister will excuse me, I will not give way for a moment.

My second point is what now is the issue for universities that have submitted to OFFA their case for wanting to go above £6,000 with any fee. There is an issue as to whether the Government were justified in saying that £9,000 would be the fee only in exceptional circumstances, as that appears, on the basis of the incomplete evidence, not to have been an accurate prediction. Some questions need to be asked, not least about the advice that Ministers were given about what the prediction should be, but there is also clearly something wrong with the universities’ response. It is not just us saying that, because the principal of Queen Mary college, a part of the university of London in the east end, said:

“I think we could say, based on the brief press releases, the possible implication or inference could be that £9,000 fees have not been based on any calculation of cost but on perception of status.”

Universities should not be charging above what it costs them to deliver a course, but many appear to have forgotten that. They appear to be taking an opportunity which they should not be taking. The money is also there for one more thing, which is to make sure that access is improved as a part of widening participation, and universities will be watched to make sure that they are really delivering.

[Mr Thomas]

On that point—

[Simon Hughes]

I cannot give way at the moment, but let us see whether I can do so a little later.

I hope that next year when future OFFA guidance is given by the Secretary of State that fee waivers will not be allowed and indeed will be excluded. I do not think it is logical to state, “You don’t have to pay fees up front or when you are there” and then to say, “But actually we are going to give you a mechanism for you not paying the fees at all.” If we are really going to support students from poor families, the money should go towards the accommodation and living costs, which is where the real bill will apply and where the credit card debts will accrue. I hope that we will not be trying to pretend that reducing fees is the most useful thing for students who may not have to pay them or much of them at all.

Thirdly, I hope that Sir Martin Harris and OFFA will be extremely rigorous. The hon. Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) made the point that powers are now in place and OFFA is able to make sure that each institution has to make sustained and meaningful progress, year on year, on its own benchmarks, measures and targets. OFFA is entitled to say to universities that they cannot have fees above £6,000 and I hope that it will be robust. If widening participation processes are not in place, I hope that OFFA will say so, and some universities may have to be told that they cannot go above the limit. I wish to make two final points and if I still have some time remaining, I will give way.

The Russell group, in particular, must do much better. It did not improve on widening participation under Labour and it must change its interview and recruitment process. At the moment, those universities are being far too subjective, particularly Oxbridge. Harvard does not have the people who are going to do the teaching doing the recruiting; it has selection on a needs-blind basis and it is one of the best universities in the world—other places are the same. The Russell group has no excuse now for not changing its process of recruitment, and if it does not do better I sincerely hope that the Government will make conditions that will require it to do so in future.

Finally, we need much better requirements on universities to give satisfaction to students. That should be written into the system in future and should be part of the preconditions for higher fees to be charged.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

As ever, we have had an interesting and fascinating debate, with many excellent contributions, although I fear that I will not be able to do justice to them all.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) said at the outset, the Prime Minister promised us that tuition fees of £9,000 would be the exception, not the rule. Not only Oxford and Cambridge, but Oxford Brookes, Lincoln, Leicester, the university of East London, Aston, Hull, Essex, Newcastle, Bradford and many, many more are set to charge the full £9,000 in tuition fees. Then there are all those that will charge close to—albeit not quite—the maximum. Kingston university, which the Secretary of State will know well, is charging £8,500. Northumbria, Teesside and Portsmouth are all set to charge £8,500 as well. As my hon. Friends the Members for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), for Sheffield Central (Paul Blomfield) and for City of Durham (Roberta Blackman-Woods) underlined in their excellent contributions, the Prime Minister got it wrong. Fees of £9,000 are not the exception; they are the reality that a huge number of the brightest and best of the next generation will face.

Even before the tuition fees vote, however, independent experts such as the Higher Education Policy Institute were arguing that fees of £9,000 would soon become the norm, not the exception. So the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) is wrong to say that Ministers were not warned what would happen. Surprisingly we had no explanation from the Government Front-Bench team of why £9,000 fees will not after all be the exception. Is not the truth that Ministers have lost control of higher education policy, and that instead of a clarity of vision and purpose for the future of our universities, there is confusion?

The Secretary of State has put off and put off and put off again the White Paper on the future of higher education, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Tristram Hunt) made clear. That lack of clarity has left the Department responsible for business and universities being pushed around in Whitehall. We have had the overseas students debacle, as Ministers publicly argued across Whitehall, in the media and in the House about the level of new restrictions on overseas students. University vice-chancellor after vice-chancellor has pointed out the damage done already to Britain’s reputation as a result; and many are still worried about how having 80,000 fewer overseas students—a cut of 20%—will hit their institutions in the long run, given all the benefits that the extra income brings.

Then we have the Department for Education launching a major review of the future of teacher training—never mind the high Ofsted ratings for the quality of that teacher training! Is it not the truth that Ministers have been warned that up to 25% of income for some of Britain’s universities is now at risk as a result of this review? Is there any sign of Ministers from the Departments for Business, Innovation and Skills and for Education getting together to resolve the uncertainties that universities face in this area? No, none at all!

The Department of Health is all set to axe strategic health authorities. They are the very bodies that negotiate with universities over the number of nurses, midwives and radiographers—and all the other vital health professionals who need university training—who are to be trained. Some universities receive approximately 25% of their total income from NHS-funded health professional courses, and others are already expecting cuts in the number of funded student places in this area of about 10% to 15%. Is it any wonder, then, that there is considerable financial uncertainty facing universities in the short and long term in this area as well?

[Stella Creasy]

Does my hon. Friend also think that there is considerable uncertainty for students such as Nancy Quilliam, from Walthamstow, who has deferred entry? She is being asked to pick a university by next Thursday, but she cannot find out how much she will be charged—she has no certainty about the rate of fees—so risks incurring a further £9,000 of debt. Is that not another level of uncertainty that the system has created for students across the country?

[Mr Thomas]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that our students or would-be students face huge uncertainty about the fees that they will incur. Perhaps if the Government had published the White Paper that they promised to publish even early this year, her constituents might have had just a little bit of certainty. Is not the truth that Ministers in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills have failed to stop other parts of Government creating huge uncertainty for Britain’s universities, thereby creating incentives for fees to be higher rather than lower?

[Paul Farrelly]

When the Government say that universities will be allowed to charge fees of £9,000 only in exceptional circumstances, is it not incumbent on them not only to say what control they will exert to turn down the 40% to 50% that will want to charge £9,000 anyway, but to tell the House how they will square the circle and make up the funding that universities will otherwise lose?

[Mr Thomas]

You would think that it was indeed incumbent on Ministers to do that, Mr Speaker, but so far they have not done so. Ministers need to publish the White Paper to give us some certainty. Thus far, it does not look as though they intend to do that any time soon.

There is also continuing uncertainty about how the remaining teaching grant will be allocated, if indeed some universities get any at all. As Opposition Members have made clear, it is the huge cut to university teaching funds and to capital that continues to drive fees higher. Surrey university’s vice-chancellor, Professor Christopher Snowden, has said that his university’s plans to charge £9,000 reflected the financial uncertainties for English universities and the substantial cuts that the Government have made to grants for teaching and building refurbishment. The university of Sheffield Hallam, which the Deputy Prime Minister may know something about, has said:

“The new fee will compensate for the government’s 80% cut in our teaching grant and the significant cuts in capital funding.”

The Government based their financial plans on average fees of £7,500. In the face of such uncertainty, it should come as no surprise that many expect average fees to be somewhat higher. Indeed, as I made clear in my interventions, the Secretary of State has confirmed that the Government are considering either a cut in student numbers or an even greater cut in the teaching grant as tools to plug the funding gap. Either he was scaremongering or the threat was real. Because the Government have lost control of higher education policy, if we take the Secretary of State at his word, then on top of an almost 80% cut in university teaching funds and a 20,000 cut in student places already, we face the prospect of our universities being starved of even more income, or more of the brightest and best of the next generation being denied the chance to better themselves through a place at university.

Frankly, watching Ministers on tuition fees has become increasingly like watching a bad episode of “Only Fools and Horses”, with Front Benchers desperately trying to sell any old line on tuition fees to people whom they clearly think are gullible punters. The right hon. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts)? The Department’s very own Rodney Trotter. Grumpy old Uncle Albert, with his best years behind him? Who else but the Secretary of State? And Derek “Del Boy” Trotter? It has to be the Deputy Prime Minister: never selling the real McCoy, never telling the whole truth—inadvertently, of course—a dodgy promise here, there and everywhere, and all his best deals done down the Nag’s Head with Boycie the spiv. Talking of whom, where is the Prime Minister for this debate?

“I’m sorry, we rushed into this and we got it wrong”—I paraphrase the Secretary of State for forests. “We’re going to have a pause, listen to people’s concerns and make changes”—the Secretary of State for Health, never mind the fact that his mea culpa is just an advertising gimmick. Either his lines or those of the right hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman) would have been a more appropriate starting point for the Minister this afternoon. He should have said, “I’m sorry, better access to university looks unlikely, despite our great promises.” He should have said, “I’m sorry, we thought OFFA could control fee levels. We were wrong.” And he certainly should have said, “I’m sorry that we were so spectacularly wrong when we claimed that only a few universities would charge the full £9,000.”

This is a policy in need of a radical overhaul. Trebling tuition fees was never fair. It was not necessary and neither is it sustainable. I commend our motion to the House.